Jorgine Mathea Nielsen

[carrolann@rogers.com]

This is a new topic but connected to Anne Marie Andersen, first wife of Emil Bernhard Berntsen, my great grandparents.

 

Anders Olsen of Land married Karen Andersdtr-Narum - when I don't know.

 

Anders & Karen had this child:

Anne-Mathea Andersdr. born 3 Sept. 1829 in Eidanger, Telemark Co.  Birth & Baptism Register nr. 1 (1829-1830) 1829 page 167.  Ann Mathea had a son born out of wedlock, Carl Anton, b. 1855, in Søndre Land, Oppland.  His father is Ole Andersen from Christiania, a married man.  Søndre Land is the same farm where Ann Mathea lives with her parents when Carl Anton is born.

Anne Mathea's baptism 3 September 1829 also in Søndre Land, Narum, Farm #86. 

She married Lars Andersen Kok, March 26 1857 in Telemark, Gjerpen, Ministerialbok nr. 8B (1857-1871) 1857 Page 238.

They move to Eidanger 1858.  "UTFLYTTEDE 1858, NUMBER 4-7.

Previous researches provided this information with links.  The # of my research in the "old" debate forum is #71197.

 

Ann Mathea dies 31 January 1862

 

Lars Andersen & Anne Mathea had the following children:

Anne Marie Andersen b. June 8, 1857, Gjerpen Parish Register nr 8A (1857-1871 Birth & Baptism Records - Women 1857, Page 89.  (Ann Marie Andersen marries Emil Bernhard Berntsen October 20, 1878.)

Laurine Kristine Andersen born 1859 Telemark County, Eidanger Parish Register Birth & Baptism (1859-1874) 1859 page 8.

(As previously mentioned, Laurine is the second wife of Emil Bernhard Berntsen).

 

1865 Lars Andersen remarries, Telemark, Eidanger, Ministerialbok nr. (1859-1874) 1865 Page 210.

I have the 1865 Census from the NHDC and the 1865 Census from the Digitalarkivet both of which include the child, Carl Anton, who is now named "Andersen". 

 

My question, after all this information is:  Who is the mother of Lars Andersen.  According to the census he was b. 1809.  A person I thought was him was b. April 20, 1810, in Moss, Ostfold.  His father is Anders Larsen Kok.  The mother, I thought might be his is Gro Marie Olsdtr. married to a Anders Larsen Kok, May 21, 1807 in Moss, Ostfold.  I don't have a reference # so maybe I got that information from LDS. Are you able to help with this? 

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Here is the link to your previos research in the old debate forum:

http://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/156550-71197-lars-andersen-anne-mathea-andersdtr-or-jacomsdtr/?hl=%2B71197#entry1326478

 

The record from Eidanger, Ministerialbok nr. 10 (1859-1874), Inn- og utflyttede 1859, side 316, Lars Andersen, 49 years old, is from Moss.

 

Bap. Lars Andersen, in 1810, Moss:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Østfold fylke, Moss, Ministerialbok nr. I 3 (1779-1814), Fødte og døpte 1810, side 64-65.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7513&idx_id=7513&uid=ny&idx_side=-33

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061023060033.jpg

 

Born 4. april, bap. 20. april 1810 i Moss church, parents Anders Larsen Kok and Gro Maria Olsdatter.

Endret September 17, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Confirmation Lars Andersen Kok, b. 4/4-1810, Værket (Moss jernverk= Moss ironworks)

 

Kildeinformasjon: Østfold fylke, Moss, Ministerialbok nr. I 5 (1814-1828), Konfirmerte 1825, side 524-525.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7519&idx_id=7519&uid=ny&idx_side=-240

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061024020496.jpg

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Lars Andersen Kok, 19 years old , to Skien, in 1828.

 

Kildeinformasjon: Østfold fylke, Moss, Ministerialbok nr. I 5 (1814-1828), Utflyttede 1828, side 594-595.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7519&idx_id=7519&uid=ny&idx_side=-254

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061024020510.jpg

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Anders Larsen Kok, widower, married Gro Maria in 1807:

 

Kildeinformasjon: Østfold fylke, Moss, Ministerialbok nr. I 4 (1784-1808), Lysninger 1806-1807, side 290-291.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7514&idx_id=7514&uid=ny&idx_side=-150

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20061023060263.jpg

 

Anders Kok in 1801 Moss:

http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=18&filnamn=f18010104&gardpostnr=306&personpostnr=2475#nedre

 

He works at Moss ironworks, lives in house 37, belonging to the ironwork.

 

In norwegian, sorry:

http://no.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_Jernverk

Endret September 17, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Emilie Lagertha, b. 1893

 

Kildeinformasjon: Akershus fylke, Drøbak i Drøbak, Ministerialbok nr. II 2 (1891-1896), Fødte og døpte 1893, side 9.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5702&idx_id=5702&uid=ny&idx_side=-12

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060929060039.jpg

 

Died 1895:

Kildeinformasjon: Akershus fylke, Drøbak i Drøbak, Ministerialbok nr. II 2 (1891-1896), Døde og begravede 1895, side 52.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5702&idx_id=5702&uid=ny&idx_side=-48

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060929060075.jpg

[carrolann@rogers.com]

I just wrote a long response regarding the latest information you supplied but "lost" it...did you receive it.  I was trying to attache two photos but it didn't happen!

 

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Here is one of the photos Carrol tried to attache. She do not know who these people are.

She says: Because the photos are taken in Grønland, Christiania I'm sure it's from my grandmother, Matilde's side.

 

Hennes bestemor var født i Oslo og vokste opp i Drøbak.

 

Hvilken uniform har mannen på bildet? Han er vel bybud i Oslo, vil jeg tro.

 

 

Her er det andre bildet.

 

Det er litt vanskelig å si hvilken drakt kvinnen på bildet har, om det er en bunad, hvilken del av landet hører den til? Carrol vet ikke når bildet er tatt.

 

 

Endret September 20, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[carrolann@rogers.com]

Re Axel Berntsen - Manifest to Superior, Wisc. from Christiania January 18, 1920, age 33.  From document you forwarded appears he returns 29 May.  Don't believe I follow him after these dates.

Re Einer - I have a few manifest documents for him but where he eventually ends up unknown at the moment.

 

Emilie Lagerta - thank you for death information.

 

Re Lars Andersen - if he was 46-1/2 at time of marriage in March 1857 he should have been born in October of 1810, the information you provided and what I found through my own search is the 4.4.1810 record but I wanted to confirm that I have the correct Lars Anderson (since it's seems there are hundreds with the same name) & that I have the correct mother.  Do you know if he had a marriage previous to that of Anne Mathea in 1857?

 

I have one page of the last letter my grandfather, Karl Johan wrote to his wife Matilde before he died in May 1913.  I believe there's a page missing.  Letter is in Norwegian & if I send it to you would you be kind enough to translate it for me.  I still don't know how to attach anything in this forum so I will have to go to my email & send it from there if that's okay with you, Randi.

 

I found a confirmation certificate for Matilde in my mother's papers.  "Daabs - og Konfirmationsattest.  Says she was confirmed Drøbaks 7 ? (next word illegible) Oktober 1894 (a.h. nitti fi??) difficult to read. Bottom of document date is 22 December 1899. I believe you told me she had to be confirmed before she could marry so I presume this is the required document in order to marry Karl Johan in December 1899.

 

Have a very beat up document from my mom - Olga Elise Katrine.  I think the heading says "Rotoppe-Judpoonings- Uttteft" .  Date in body of certificate I think is 1904, in Vestby (where she was b.in 1903), date at bottom is Mar 1906.    In 1967 she was going to visit her family in Norway.  If my memory serves me correctly she had to send a birth certificate in order to get a passport.  In error she sent a vaccination certificate (she laughed about her error!), she ordered what I believe is a birth certificate which says "Den Norske Kirke"  "Dapsattest".  Records her maiden & given name, date, place, name of parents.  Certified & stamped, Vestby Soknepresfembere? Betaling kr 5,  It's dated 12 September 1967 so I expect this is what she had to have to get a passport.

 

My mother and her brother John were the only two children of Karl Johan & Matilde born in Norway.  (I have the copies from the Parish registers).  The other 3 children were born in Canada as were the 3 children from her second marriage.

 

Thanks for all your help & input & now I'm going to try to sent the page of the letter from my email.  Karl Johan's death was a mystery that troubled my mother at times.  He was a cook on the Grand Trunk Railway, Bisset Creek, Petawawa, Ontario.  Apparently one night he turned in his keys to the cook house, said he wouldn't be needing them anymore.  Next morning he was dead.  I have his death certificate - cause of death some kind of heart ailment but then it also says his nationality was Irish - so what do we really know?!! 

[carrolann@rogers.com]

There's an error/mix up either in my head or my family tree maker program.  Lars Andersen married Anne Mathea Andersdtr in 1840, not 1857.  He was 24 years old.  Doesn't that make him born in 1816 & not 1810.  Can't make out name of his father but it doesn't look like "Anders". So if this is the correct Lars Andersen, Ann Marie wasn't born until 1857 so what was he doing for 17 years?  Or am I really confused?

[carrolann@rogers.com]

I apologize for last entry.  That Lars Andersen/Anne Mathea Andersdtr was the first one I ever found before I discussed these people with the previous debate forum who explained they are not my family.  Sorry for this confusion.  I will delete those documents from my file to avoid further confusion.  Many people there have the same name!

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Lars Andersen Kok is correct, he is Anne Marie Andersens father.

 

Emil Bernhard and Anne Marie in the Banns register, her father listed as Lars Andersen Kok.

 

Source information: Oslo county, Østre Aker, Banns register nr. 4 (1878-1901), Banns records 1878, page 13-14.

Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=3935&idx_id=3935&uid=ny&idx_side=-7

Permanent imagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060530010038.jpg

 

No 147:

Source information: Oslo county, Østre Aker, Parish register copy nr. 3 (1868-1913), Marriage records 1878, page 423.

Permanent pagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5785&idx_id=5785&uid=ny&idx_side=-434

Permanent imagelink: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060921010842.jpg

Endret September 23, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Lars Andersen, smed (blacksmith), widower, b. Moss, died in 1888. No 9.

 

Kildeinformasjon: Telemark fylke, Eidanger, Ministerialbok nr. 12 (1879-1900), Døde og begravede 1889, side 189.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=3982&idx_id=3982&uid=ny&idx_side=-188

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060531060349.jpg

[carrolann@rogers.com]

I do have the record of the marriage of Emil & Anne Marie & do know her father is Lars Andersen Kok (and his father is Anders Larsen).  I questioned the birth date since at least one records states he was born in 1809 but the only Lars Andersen who seemed correct born 4.4.1810 in Moss so I assume 1809 is incorrect.  I was wanting to know who his mother is.  I guess she is this Gro Marie Olsdtr.  What does Gro mean?

According to above he dies 1888 & is a widower.  So I assume his second wife, who he married in 1865 is alive at the time of his death.

Thanks Randi Elisabeth Haugros - again!

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

He is a widower in 1888, his second wife is dead. I have not yet search her death in the records.

 

It is confusing, because some records do not give us the correct information of the year of birth, f. ex. The census of 1865, 1875, even 1910 is not always reliable. You need to check the church records.

So, again, I understood that you had the records you mentioned, but I had to read them myselves to find the correct person and year.

 

At the same reason, I copy the records here, so the readers of this tread may correct me if I made a mistake.

 

Gro is her first name. It is an old norwegian name. The meaning is "grow, growing"

 

In norwegian: Jentenavnet kommer fra det norrøne ordet "gróa" som betyr "vokse/gro".

[carrolann@rogers.com]

Thank you for this.  As far as Lars Andersen's second wife is concerned I don't think it really matters since she's not my relative.  As far as I am aware they didn't have any children.  It's only a matter of interest to follow my own ancestor.

 

You sent me a document for the birth of Lars Andersen but I couldn't find any reference to him on that page.  Although I can't read what's in the document I became quite good at picking out names & dates while doing my previous research.  I have found the Norwegian records to be the most accurate & complete of any research I've done.  My father's ancestry is French, Irish, English.  It was a daunting task to find his French ancestry.  They have so many interpretations of the surname it boggles the brain but he too left me with much information so I am twice blessed by my parents & three times blessed by you and the Debate Forum!

 

Truly grateful for all your help & thankful to my mother who left me with so much information on her ancestry!

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

I did not find the reference myselves at first sight.

 

But the birth of Lars Andersen is on the page I sent you. Look at the right side of the page, on the egde. It is written down in the margins of the page.

 

 

Endret September 24, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[carrolann@rogers.com]

Okay.  I see it now.....just thought that was a note the "priest" had written to himself so ignored it.  Thanks, Randi.

[carrolann@rogers.com]

Did Gudrun Berntsen marry?  I have a photo of her with her fiance - no name indicated for him.

Did Sigrid Berntsen marry?

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

Gudrun in the census 1923 Kristiania , still unmarried:

http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=13&filnamn=ft03011923&gardpostnr=852&personpostnr=3708&merk=3708#ovre

 

 

Miss Gudrun Berntsen, still unmarried, adress Eriksgaten 4, in 1955:

http://arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/db/49288/207/?size=medium&mode=0

 

Miss Gudrun Berntsen in 1960/61, same adress:

http://arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/db/49298/172/?size=medium&mode=0

Endret September 25, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

The same in 1965/66:

http://arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/db/49308/161/?size=medium&mode=0

 

She must have died after 1966. May be someone could find her obituary f.ex. in the newspaper. I do not have access to the newspaper Aftenposten (Oslo), their archives on the web.

Endret September 25, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros

[carrolann@rogers.com]

I didn't think she married  Maybe because I don't have a photo of her with a mate other than the fiance.  Thanks you I will search the newspaper link you provided.

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

I found her, not in the newspaper, she died in 1966:

http://www.begravdeioslo.no/resultat/name/Gudrun%20berntsen/year_of_death_uncertainty/1/sort_by_column/last_name/sort_order/1

[carrolann@rogers.com]

Thanks for information on Gudrun.

New person:

Randi Bettum - Cam Colletts n. 16, Oslo 2. b. about 1913. (Have photos of Randi).  (I met her at Uncle Siguards Berntsen's 100th birthday.  She corresponded regularly with my mother & her sister, Ada). 

Think her maiden name is Samuelsen.  She married an Erling Bettum. Know she had at least 1 son.

Her father is a Captain Samuelsen, mother is Clara Jacobsdtr b. abt. 1889. (I have a photo of them.)

 

Jacob Olaus (or Claus?) Jacobsen Neilsen (b. abt. 1855), Laurine Kristine's Andersen's first husband, the one she divorced to marry Emil Berntsen.

 

Children of Laurine Kristine & Jakob  (Jacob) O. Neilsen are Clara and Hjalmar Leonhard Martinius Jakobsen (b. 07 April 1888, Telemark, Eidanger.  Don't know who he married or if he did.  We later find him living with Emil & Kristine.

 

The only reference I have is for Hjalmar Jacobsen - Telemark, Eidanger 1879-1900, 1888 Page 48 Entry #30 and Parish Register copy Eidanger 18879-1892 (1888 entry #29 - which is more legible).  Father is recorded as Jacob (or Claus) Jakobsen of Gift and mother recorded as Kone Laurine Nilsen.

 

 

 

 

 

[Randi Elisabeth Haugros]

About Randi:

http://tux.aftenposten.no/personalia/paperadsobi/710103.pdf

 

-----------------------------

 

Does not seem to be "your Randi" ???? Your information about Randi's father does not make sense with the father in this census.

 

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01063298019559

Endret September 26, 2014 av Randi Elisabeth Haugros