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Gjest Jeff Erickson

[#24203] Anne Ditmansdatter, Sandar married 1722

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Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

I guess this could be the transcription of the churcbook: LenkeFor anyone with access to the microfilms; the records look to be from Naug, Lardal, VestfoldJan

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Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

According to LDS, it looks like there been two Anne Ditmansdatter in Sandar at the same time:ANNE DITMANSDATTER (1700-1746) Birthplace Unneberg, Sandar, Vestfold, Norway Marriage: 14 NOV 1722, Spouse: Aake Gulleiksen Burial: 02 MAR 1746 Parents: DITMAN ANUNSSON & MARI HANSDATTERANNE DITMANSDATTER (1704-1774) Birthplace: Unneberg, Sandar, Vestfold, Norway Marriage: 1727 Spouse: Tolv Nielsen Death: 29 JAN 1774 Parents: DITMAN ANUNSSON & MARI HANSDATTERJan

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Thank you Jan. This does not agree witht the marriage record on Vestfold slekt for 1722 which says she married Åke Thorsen. Can someone check the churchbook entry ? It seems the girls were called Anne and Anna

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Gjest Kjell Håkestad

Hei Jeff. I am not able to find Aage Gulleikssøn’s marriage, b.??? 1696 ,Himberg, Sandar.My transcript of Åke Thorsen and Anne Ditmandsdatter, is correct. LenkeThe church register for Sandar , begin 1709 and the year 1722 is partial illegible, (my filmcopy)You can try to get in touch with Statsarkivet in Kongsberg, for information. E-postadresse: statsarkivet.kongsberg@riksarkivaren.dep.noBut first of all, you have to check the correctness of Haugen’s relationship, I don’t think all is correct.Med hilsen Kjell.

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Gjest Ketil Firing Hanssen

Åke Thorsen Klavenes married Anna Olsdatter Moe in 1719. He died at Klavenes 8 Mar 1739, 47 years old. Anne Olsdatter Klavenes died 28 Oct 1739, 44 years old.My guess is that Anne Ditmansdatter married Åke Gulliksen Himberg in 1722, and that the entry in the church record is wrong. The church register shows that Åke Gulliksen and Anne Ditmansdatter had several children born at Himberg.Kjell:Anne Ditmansdatter Himberg was buried in 1746, her husband is listed as *Niels* Gulliksen in the transcription. Can you check the church register for this entry?

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

If the churchbook entry for the 1722 wedding between Anne Ditmansd. and Åke Gulliksen Himberg is wrong how can we be sure that they were married. Are there any other records which would confirm it.It seems that the Anna who married Neils is a sister?

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Gjest Kjell Håkestad

Hei Jeff.So far I have a theory, Anne Ditmansd. was married 3 times. First with Åke Thorsen. I have the find the marriage 12 nov. 1722. ( Åke Gulliksen have to be wrong.)2. time with Åke Gulliksen. ?? time.And Anne’s 3. marriage with Nils Gulliksen. LenkeMed hilsen Kjell.

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Hei Kjell Your theorey seems unlikely as Åke Thorsen died in 1739 still married to Anne Olsd. Maybe there were two Åke Thorsen'sDoes the churchbook show Åke Gullichsen as the father of Gunnild, hans, Mari,Anun, Gulliek and Ditman and when they were born?

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Gjest Kjell Håkestad

Hei Jeff!Yes, its 3 of themÅke Gulliksen had allodial law of the farm br. 2 Himberg after his father, Gullik Hansen, d. 1699. the wife was married again with Tor Andersen and he was user of the farm from 1702 – 1726, and then the wife Ragnhild was dead 1726, Åke Gulliksen is ready to take over the farm.If the marriage from the church register 1722 is correct, Åke Thorsen was son of Tor Andersen. and he was dead early. (wrong or not, its no other safe information.)I will read the church register again, looking for more information.Kjell.

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Gjest jeff Erickson

Hei KjellThanks.What is allodial law? The other children must have been born before 1733Jeff

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Gjest Kjell Håkestad

After a new way of thinking, Åke Gulliksen was stepson of Tor Andersen and Thorsen can be quite right yet. I am sorry.Allodial law , a right of inheritance, specially for landed property, first-born. son’s right of inheritance.Kjell.

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Gjest Hans Mathisen

From Lorens Berg,s 'Sandeherred, en bygdebok' (Kristiania 1918):Page 430-31: Ditman Amunssøn and Mari Hansdatter, Vestre Unneberg,had two daughters called Anne. The oldest Anne married Aake Gulleikssøn from Himberg in 1722, the youngest Anne married Tolv Nilssøn i 1727.Aake and his Anne lived for some time on Vestre Unneberg, but moved to Himberg. Tolv and his Anne lived on Vestre Unneberg.Page 659: Himberg: Aake and Anne had the following children: Ditman, Gulleik, Hans, Anun, Gunhild and Mari.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

Kjell (innlegg 15);odelsretten gjaldt ikke bare eldste sønn, men alle barn. Du blander nok med åsetesretten, dvs den eldstes rett til å innløse eiendommen. (Ettersom åsetesrett ikke står i ordboka mi, så lar jeg en forklaring på engelsk være. Det er jo ikke så veldig sentralt for debatten!)

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Gjest Kjell Håkestad

Kristian!Det er nok ikke enkelt å forklare på engelsk.særlig når jeg er avhengig av en digital ordbok.

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Gjest jeff erickson

Thank you all,It seems to make sense that Aage Gulleikssøn and Åke Thorsen are the same person and the explanation by Kjell in (15) seems to be valid.It would be interestering to know how Lorens Berg was able to show Aage Gulleikssøn as the husband when the kirkebok shows Åke ThorsenIt would also make sense that children Ditman and Gulleik were the eldest and were born before 1733.Can someone translate Kristian's comments please.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

My comment regarded the allodial law, and doesn't concern your question. I'd like to translate it, but my dictionary doesn't include some of the key-words, so I'll leave it there.You state that 'it would be interestering to know how Lorens Berg was able to show Aage Gulleikssøn as the husband when the kirkebok shows Åke Thorsen'.The answer is probably by looking in the probate records. Dealing with genealogy in this period, you have to compare information from the churchbook with information from other sources. As long as noone checks the probate records, I recommend that you trust Lorens Berg in this particular case.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

That is, I support Ketil Firing Hanssens suggestion (7) that the entry is wrong. Hans Mathisen (16) has provided what you need to know.Let's hope that someone can check the probate records as well.

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Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

Regarding (17) and (18), which was a discussion about 'primogeniture' vs 'allodial', in Norwegian 'åsetesretten' kontra 'odelsretten'.Here is an explenation I found in an english dictionary:Primogeniture (norw: åsetesrett )in law, the rule of inheritance whereby land descends to the oldest son. Under the feudal system of medieval Europe, primogeniture generally governed the inheritance of land held in military tenure. The effect of this rule was to keep the father’s land for the support of the son who rendered the required military service. When feudalism declined and the payment of a tax was substituted for military service, the need for primogeniture disappeared. In England, consequently, there was enacted the Statute of Wills (1540), which permitted the oldest son to be entirely cut off from inheriting, and in the 17th cent. military tenure was abolished; primogeniture is, nevertheless, still customary in England. In the United States primogeniture never became widely established.Allodial:A kind of land ownership that is unfetterred, outright and absolute. It is the opposite of the feudal system and supposes no obligation to another (ie. a lord).Allodial rights is a Norwegian tradition that dates back over centuries. Its purpose is to keep a farm within ones family. The system can best be described as an advanced form of inheritance which protects the family farm. This system of precedence protects the original family members from losing their inheritance through marriage. Allodial law will often give the person entitled to the allodium advantages at the sacrifice of his/her siblings and other relatives. Due to this advantage we often see conflicts when the person with allodial privilege takes over the allodium.Jan

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