Gå til innhold
Arkivverket
Gjest Karl Bye

[#31008] Military Orchestra or Band in Arendal

Recommended Posts

Gjest Karl Bye

Through the good efforts of members of this forum, it is shown that my Grandfather, Carl Olavus Bye, musician, did in fact live in Arendal for at least 11 years, from 1877 through 1888. More than likely he and his family lived there even longer. Family history describes Carl's occupation as director of a court/military orchestra or band for 28 years, (family artifacts support this). A recent discovery (through this forum) regarding the birth of his daughter Marie Elevine, b. 27/5 1881 (bapt. 28/8), lists the father as 'Musik (directør ?)' Carl Olaves Bye. This is the first clear indication of my Grandfather's title in the several years of my research, Largely because this is the first time I have been able to find a location and record for him beyond his early days of marriage.Does anyone have access to historical documents in which a record of a military or musical history in Arendal might reside? It would seem that Arendal is where my Grandfather might have carried out at least a part of his musical career. I do have other family legends regarding Carl, but I'm not completely sure they are other than legend, ie: his association with Edvard Grieg. Grandfather was 9 years older than Grieg, and he was a music teacher, so I suppose some relationship might have been possible.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Kjell Knudsen

Hello Karl. I'm an archivist at the 'Aust-Agder kulturhistoriske senter' (Aust-Agder County Museum and Archive). I have checked with the records of the Arendal Musical Society. Unfortunately there are no records between 1846 and 1889, and in the records from 1889 I could find no trace of Carl Olaves Bye. In the 1865 census for Christiania he is only mentioned as a musician, but in the Church Register of 1881 his full title is 'Hoboist og [and] Musik Directeur'. Hoboist was a common denotion of a military musician. He must however have had his military career before he settled down in Arendal, as Arendal had no military band at the time, and I don't think there has ever been one. I think the nearest garrison which had a band was in Christiansand, some 70 kilometres further down the coast.Kind regards, Kjell Knudsen

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

Even this amount of information is very helpful. This is the first real confirmation I have had that Carl was associated with the military and that he was a director ('Directeur'). I find the spelling 'directeur' strange for a Norwegian, it would seem to me to be French. I believe that Carl emigrated in 1889, that was the year my father emigrated, and therefore would not appear in the church record. One story my father always told me was that his father Carl was never home when his children were born except when my father was born. Hence the very non Norwegian name for my father. Carl named my father after a German musician (with slight spelling changes). My father was named Terschak Franzoir Bye. I believe the German composer was Teresak or some similar spelling. Th fact that Carl was rarely home might still fit with a 28 year military career, even if the family were living in Arendal.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Here is a link to a page that, among other things, describes the activities of a hoboist: Lenke. Although the page refers to conditions in the 1700's, I think the information may be relevant. One of my own relatives was a hoboist in Frederiksvern (Stavern) at that time - connected to the Danish-Norwegian Navy.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

Munklærer C. O. By b.1834, Residence Arendal, is emigrating to New York on Oct. 21st, 1887. LenkePort of Emigration: Kristiansand.Jan Peter

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

Btw, the profession 'munklærer' must be a faulty transcription of 'musiklærer'.... I doubt he was teaching monk's...??? :-)Jan Peter

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Let us link the two Bye-'threads' together: Lenke.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I have seen so many variations of the occupation musician that I wondered if they were all misspelled, or if there was a difference in their significance. For that matter, I have found that the spelling of names seems to be treated with a large degree of abandon.As to linking the two threads together, it makes sense to me, but as a newcomer to this forum, I really have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just glad I found it.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

Since reading the material describing a 'Hoboist', I am wondering if such a musician might also be able to have another occupation at the same time. I do know that Carl Olavus Bye was also a teacher, his ocupation while in the United States. Also, the occupation frequently attributed to him in the few documents I have found describes him as 'musiklærer', which I think means music teacher. I guess what I am trying to say is, couldn't Carl have been a music teacher in Arendal while at the same time a Hoboist?

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

You're right - 'musikklærer' means music teacher, and he might have had two different occupations - both connected to some music activities. The 'hoboist'-occupation could have been some kind of 'ad hoc'- function, perhaps another place than Arendal (which could explain your fathter's baptism in Kragerø).

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I must say I am confused about the occupations in music. In the 1865 census for Christiania, Carl was listed as a 'Musekanter', and in an earlier search, (I forget where) I found him listed as a 'Musicus' while in Arendal he is a 'Musikklærer'. I'm not sure what the difference is.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Both 'musekant' (musikant) and 'musicus' mean musician/person who performs music - while 'musikklærer' means music teacher. He was obviously both playing an instrument (or maybe several instruments), AND he was teaching others.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

Thanks! I guess that makes sense although I don't quite see why the two words for one occupation.Yes he was proficient with flute, violin, and piano, or so I was told. He also was a composer. As a boy, I remember shelf after shelf of his work, stored in a cabinet in our 'music room'.Every one of his children learned to play a musical instrument. In fact, my eldest aunt Klara had been an accompanist to Ole Bull. This musical tradition was carried on by my father, who played the piano.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I neglected to mention, in my last post, that I have a 92 year old sister that is still playing the cello. In fact, she occasionaly plays professionaly for local groups near her home. I used to play piano myself, so I think you can see why it was so important to me to learn as much as possible about my grandfather and his music. I still have a very long way to go.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

92 and still playing? I'm impressed! I can understand your confusion about the different words for the same occupation. You will also see in the old sources that names are spelled different, depending on who has written. At least a part of the explanation is that until the 20th century the written Norwegian language didn't follow one single norm. From the middle of the 12th century until 1814 we were ruled by the danes, and Danish (which is quite similar, but not exactly the same as Norwegian), was the written norm. And from 1814 until 1905 Norway was part of a Swedish-Norwegian Union. In the 1830's a rather great activity took place in creating a new Norwegian written language, but the activists didn't agree when it came to the exact norm. Therefore we got two different norms: 'Riksmål' (based on Danish and the spoken language among the borguois people in the greater towns) and 'Landsmål' (based on the old Nordic, 'viking'-language - quite similar to present Icelandic - and rural dialects). The priests who wrote the church records (and other officials), were quite confused, and they followed in some way a 'personal' standard, somtimes influenced by latin.As a result of this 'floating' language situation, you will find a lot of varieties in words and spelling: Olaves, Olavus, Olaus; musikant, musiker, musicus (latinized).

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I was quite familiar with the 'Swedish-Norwegian' union as you put it. I was told that Carl was very nationalistic and felt strongly that Norway should be totally independant. I believe that it was around 1905 that he made one of his apparently numerous trips back. He undoubtedly was very pleased with the turn of events. Following this, we seem to have lost track of him. I don't know where he had been, but I do know that he died in Norway on the 28th of February, 1915, and was buried on the 5th of March in Østre Grønland, Oslo. Just before my wife and I went to Norway (on our 50th wedding anniversary) I learned that Carl was no longer in that grave anymore, there was another buried there. This was quite a shock to me and I have never been able to find out what happens to the original remains when this happens.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Jan Peter Wiborg

You have not been able to find out what happens to the original remains after being buried in soil for 100 years?Jan Peter

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I haven't been able to so far. Any time I have asked, no one seemed to know.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Göran  och Vibeke Åhling

Here, a grave plot is rented, not bought. A certain number of years after a funeral may be for free. After that rent has to be paid. Else it may be rented to somebody else. There is a specific number of years that have to pass between funerals. This is to make certain that the remains have gone back to dust/earth/soil ('dust to dust'). Concrete vaults are not used. The grave is dug in the ground and the coffin is lowered into it. If any remains (pieces of bone or teeth) would be found at a subsequent funeral in the same plot, they are usually put back in the same (sacred) soil they were once buried in to await the Resurrection. (In some places and during some periods, there have been special cemetary bone houses where found bones were placed. We have not heard of any of these in Norway though.)It is theoretically possible but very difficult to obtain a permit to remove remains (to another grave or cemetary). The law is also very firm on the proper way to handle remains.What little that might still be left of your relative´s earthly remains most probably is where it was once buried.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

I made another visit to the Statsarkivet in Kristiansand today, just to see if I could find Hilda S., Jennie G. and Olaf in the church record. My conclusion: None of them were born in Arendal. I found, however, Hildas confirmation. It took place in Arendal the 17th April 1887. Connected to that event the church record gave some useful information. She was born 29th January 1871 in Drammen (and baptized there 16th July the same year). Parents: Musikus Carl Olaus Bye and Juliane Marie Christensen. Perhaps Jennie G. and Olaf also were born in Drammen, and the family must have moved to Arendal about 1876 (between Olaf's and Haakon Robert's births).

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Here we may have some relatives in Drammen: Lenke

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I don't believe the Hedvind Thovald and Juliane Marie found in the 1865 census for Drammen are related to my family. My Juliane Marie was born in October of 1839 in Aker. My grandfather Carl Olavus was in fact born Carl Olavus Hansen, he chose the name Bye later as an adult. His father, Hans Andersen, was married in 1833 and Carl was born in 1834 in Christiania. The similarity in names and occupation certainly appear to be an interesting coincidence. In the 1865 census for Christiania, my Carl and Juliane can be found with their first three children, Klara, Karl Ludvig Oscar, and Håkon Robert. It was fascinating to me to note that there were two Håkon Robert Byes in my family. I assume that the first must have died as a child and then the next male born to Juliane and Carl was given the same name to honor the first and deceased child. The second was spelled Haakon and he is the one that I just barely remember.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

It doesn't look like Carl Olavus' parents got married in Christiania/Aker. According to FamilySearch Hans Andersen and Elie Olsdtr. got married in Norderhov, Buskerud, 17th November 1833 [url="http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/igi/individual_record.asp?recid=500219539287&lds=1&region=12&regionfriendly=&juris1=Norw&juris2=&juris3=&juris4=&regionfriendly=&juris1friendly=Norway&juris2friendly=&juris3friendly=&juris4friendly=>Lenke. And another couple with similar names (Hans Andersen and Elie Olsdtr. got married in Bragernes, Drammen, Buskerud, 28th April 1835

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Hans Andersen and Eli Olsdatter are quite common names, and the last couple (married 1835) cannot be Carl Olavus' parents, I think - because he was born the year before their marriage. But the first couple (married 1833) might possibly be his parents?

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider
Gjest Karl Bye

I think you are right. The lineage of Carl Olavus Bye that I have been able to obtain to this date is the following:Anders Jensen b. Dehli farm, Norderhaug. +Kari Olsdatter b. Lunder farm...Hans Andersen b. 1802, Lunner Annex, Jevnaker Parish, Oppland, c. 19 Sep 1802, Lunner Annex, Jevnaker Parish, Oppland. ..+Elie Olsdatter b. 1808, Bratstad farm, Norderhof, Buskerud, c. 21 Feb 1808, Norderhof, Buskerud, m. 17 Nov 1833, parents Ole Halgrimsen and Ragnild Olsdatter.....Carl Olavus Bye b. 21 Mar 1834, Christiania, d. 28 Feb 1915, Grønland, Oslo, b. 5 Mar 1915, Østre Grønland, Oslo ....+Juliane Marie Christensen b. 7 Oct 1839, Aker, d. 9 Sep 1919, Rockland, Massachusetts, USA, bur. 11 Sep 1919, Mount Hope Cemetary, Kennebunk, York, Maine, USA. m. 13 Apr 1861, Trefoldighetskirken, Christiania, par. Rasmus Christensen and Susanna Svendsdatter.......Klara Eugenie Bye b. 21 Dec 1860, Christiania, c. 20 May 1861, Christiania, d. 6 Mar 1895, Kennebunk, York, Maine, USA.......Karl Ludvig Oscar Bye b. 14 Jul 1863, Østre Aker......Håkon Robert Bye b. 27 Apr 1865, Grunerløkken, Christiania, c. 6 Aug 1865.......Hilda S. Bye b. 18 Jan 1872 b. ?,(b. 29 Jan 1871, Drammen ?), (bapt. 16 Jul 1871, Drammen ?), c. 17 Apr 1887, Arendal.......Jennie G. Bye b. 1873, Norway......Olaf Bye b. 29 Apr 1875, Norway, d. 27 Oct 1900, Kennebunk, York, Maine, USA.......Haakon Robert Bye b. 29 Aug 1877, Arendal, Aust Agder, d. 21 Jun 1936, Kennebunk, York, Maine, USA.......Charles Eli Julian Bye b. 8 Jul 1879, Arendal, Aust Agder, d. 31 Oct 1910, Worcester, Massachusetts, USA, bur. 2 Nov 1915, Oakdale Cemetary, Sanford, York, Maine, USA.......Marie Elevine Bye b. 27 May 1881, Arendal, Aust Agder, c. 28 Aug 1881, Arendal, Aust Agder......Terschak Franzoir Bye b. 4 Aug 1884, Kragerø, Telemark, d. 3 Jan 1973, Brighton Hospital, Portland, York, Maine, USA.......Oscara Francesca Bye b. 4 May 1888, Arendal, Aust Agder, c. 22 Jul 1888, Arendal, Aust Agder, d. 6 Mar 1968.

Del dette innlegget


Lenke til innlegg
Del på andre sider

  • Hvem er aktive   0 medlemmer

    Ingen innloggede medlemmer aktive

×

Viktig Informasjon

Arkivverket bruker cookies (informasjonskapsler) på sine nettsider for å levere en bedre tjeneste. De brukes til bl.a. skjemaoppdateringer og innlogging. Bruk siden som normalt, eller lukk informasjonsboksen for å akseptere bruk av cookies.