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Gjest Reina Pol

[#35204] Lars Hansen from Grømstad

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Gjest Reina Pol

I am researching the family of Lars Hansen from Grømstad, married in 1777 in Fjære to Karen Olsdr Dolholt. Lars Hansen was a snedker. Around 1785 this family has moved to Kristiansand. Untill 1793 they are mentioned in the churchrecords in Kristiansand. The parents are called at that time Lars Hansen Gremstad and Karen Olsdr Dolholt. After 1793 Karen Olsdr is not mentioned any more in the churchrecords. But Lars Hansen has been found back in 1807 as a sponsor at the wedding of his son Ole Larsen (+ Ragnild Johnsdr). Ole's profession was a fragtmand. Lars Hansen is called at that time: Lars Hansen Odderoe. His son Ole has been called around 1811 and 1813: Ole Larsen Odderoe. Also his daughter(sponsor in 1809 and 1813 at baptims of Ole's children) Karen Marie Larsdr Odderoe. Another daughter (also a sponsor in 1811 at a baptism of Ole's children) has been called: Anne Larsdr Vrensted. I am quite sure that it concerns members of the same family.This family is not mentioned in the 1801-census at the digital Archives. I have already questioned the Digital Archives by e-mail and they advised me to pose my questions here at the Debate Forum.My questions are: -Does anybody know if there are 1801 censusrecords from Odderoe and/or has anybody insight in these original censusrecords? -Does anybody know why people around 1795-1813 lived at Odderoe (I know that this has been a strategic place). Could they have been involved in the war industry at that time and could they have had professional connections to Denmark?Thank you very much. And I wish all of you a happy new year.Reina

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Gjest Jarl V. Erichsen

Hi! I'm living in Grimstad, so I just had to look in my books and papers. But, the only thing I found was that in a book from 1890/95 (Landgraff: Grimstadslægter I) on page 46f there is an article about the Dolholt family, where Karens parents and family are mentioned. and there says that they leaved for Kristinasand in 1785.And: In Tveites 'Landvik II - Ætt og odel' on page 39 you can find more about Karens father, Ole's, family in Landvik. By this line you and me and thousands of norwegians are related!- Jarl -

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Gjest Reina Pol

Thank you for looking. I am not in the possession of these books, but when I go to Norway, I will go to the library. But, do you know why Odderoe is not mentioned in the Digital Archives? It would be nice to confirm that they have been living togehter and to have a confirmation of the composition of this family around 1801. I have got my impressions only from the records in the churchbook. Thanks. Best whishes. Reina

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Odderoe (Odderø/Odderøya) is an island in Kristiansand (connected to the town center by a short bridge. A military fortification is situated there. On the island there was also a lepra hospital.

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Gjest Reina Pol

That's very interesting information. In which timeperiod was there a Lepra hospital at Odderø? It seems indeed quite an isolated place and in the churchbooks in Kristiansand there are only a few people mentioned coming from or living at Odderø. Around 1813 there's spoken of a few sponsors coming from 'Odderoe sogn'. Which gave me the impression that it has been a separate community.Yes, I have read something about a military fortification at Odderøya, but it is unclear to me which part this peninsula Odderø or Odderøya has played in the period around 1795-1815 (in the Naopleontic War). Could the people who have lived there at that time have been involved in the transport of war materials to Denmark? Has there been connectiones between Odderøya and Frolands Værk at that time? (around 1800-1810).Thanks. Reina

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

In the actual period both the fortification and the hospital existed. Unfortunately I haven't got the sources available here at home just now - except one little booklet that tells a story about a battle the 11th September 1807, where Odderøya fort was involved. The british commander Robert Stopford with a small float of three ships was then forced to return.Frolands Værk had nothing to with Odderøya to do. The iron industry in Froland used Grimstad as it's port.At last, just a little detail: Odderøya was not a 'sogn'. I suppose Odderøya in that case is mixed up with Oddernes. Oddernes consisted of the areas surrounding Kristiansand (= only the town center).

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

You have said that the family is mentioned in the Kristiansand church records until 1793. In the 1801 census it's impossible to find them there. My question is then: Where are the information about the wedding and the baptisms 1807-1813 from? Kristiansand?

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Gjest Reina Pol

Hello Oddbjørn, I appreciate your answer very much. Thank you. Lars Hansen baptised 22-11-1750 in Fjære and Karen Olsdr born around 1752/53 (no birth found) are married in 1777 in Fjære. Baptised in Fjaere their children: Johanes 2-11-1777, Birthe 10-10-1779, Anne 14-10-1784. Sponsors most of the time persons of the Gjessing family. Ole Joensen Dolholt and Mads Hansen (the brother of Lars Hansen). In Kristiansand baptised: Ole, 25-2-1786, Karen Marie 22-2-1789, Karen Marie 11-6-1790, Aasle Serine 4-8-1793. The parents are called most of the time Lars Hansen Gremstad and Karen Olsdr Dolholt. Sponsors seems not familyrelated.In Kristiansand: 15-7-1792 Karen Lars Hansen Grimstads sponsor at the baptism of Martha, child of Anders Jonsen (Egeland, also called Odderoe once) and Ane Cathrine Trulsdr. After the baptism of Aasle Serine in 1793 Karen Olsdr is not mentioned any more in the baptismrecords of Kristiansand as a sponsor (I have read all the sponsors untill 1814).In Kristiansand 9-9-1798 baptised Lovise child from Niels Olsen and Gunnild Henrichsdr. Sponsor Johannes Larsen OdderoeWedding in Kristiansand 31-7-1807 Ole Larsen (Fragtmand) + Pige Ragnild Johnsdr. Sponsors John Eriksen Konnesmoe and Lars Hansen Odderoe. After 1807 Lars Hansen Odderoe (untill 1814) has not been mentioned anymore.Baptised in Kristiansand: -3-2-1809 Lovise Karine child of Ole Larsen fragtmand + Ragnild Johnsdr. First two sponsors: Malene Ole Dranges, Jomfrue Karen Marie Larsdr and some others. -10-11-1811 Johan Christopher and Torborg Kirstine. Tvilling of Ole Larsen and Ragnild Johnsdr. First two sponsors: Ane Kirstine Christian Astrups and Jomfrue Anne Larsdr Vrensted and some others. -9-5-1813 Torborg Kirstine child of Ole Larsen Odderoe and Ragnild Johnsdr Kongsmoe. First two sponsors: Guri matros Ole Langballes and Jomfrue Karen Marie Larsdr Odderoe. -26-12-1811 Barbro (the baptism is mentioned in the year 1812) child of Anders Hansen Bjørn and Siri Johnsdr. First two sponsors: Ragnild Ole Larsens gift and Jomfrue Serine Larsdr. Wedding in Kristiansand: 18-12-1812 Anne Larsdr Wrensted + Edor Henrich Esius. Sponsors: Conrad Astrup and Lars Astrup. Conrad Astrup (=Christian Conrad) has been married in Øyestad in 1810 to Ane Kirstine Kiddelsen from Grooss. Sponsor Willum Grooss. She has been called 'Kiddelsen' (like a kind of surname) but she has been Ane Kirstine the daughter of Knud Kiddelsen and Asloug Cathrine Olsdr. Asloug (Aaslov Cathrine) was the sister of Karen Olsdr dolholt and Asloug married for the second time to Willem Christensen and they have lived at the farm Grooss in the 1801 census. Thanks a lot for your interest. Reina

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Lars Hansen and several of his children are obviously in Kristiansand both before and after 1801. It's therefore very strange that they seem impossible to find int the 1801 census. They might be registered either in Oddernæs or in Tved (today parts of Kristiansand).

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Gjest Reina Pol

I am very sorry, but they really have not been mentioned in the 1801 census in the Digital Archives. Not in and not near Kristiansand and not elsewhere in Norway. That's the problem. Reina

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Gjest Reina Pol

Hello Jarl,Except from thanks for your answer, I just want to say, that's just the question. I do'nt know what has been mentioned in Tveites Landvik II Ætt og odel page 39, but if we really are related and thousands of Norwegians with us, I should like to have more proof. Best whishes to you in the New Year. Reina

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Gjest Kristian Fjeldsgård

First:Since Lars Hansen is mentioned at Odderøya in 1807 he in the military rolls. Odderøya was a fortress and we had the Napolean wars at that time. I had my self a relative who died in 1808 in Kristiansand, researched by others who were very difficult to find.Beside the National archives there is the 'Statsarkivet in Kristiansand' and the torwn archive of Kristiansand: 'Kristiansand Byarkiv'Namely K.B. has documents of naval affairs and military.The first known person of the Dolholt family is assumed to be Gunstein Sveinsson who buy a part of Foss in Sør Audnedal in 1488, Diplomatarium Norvegicum VI, nr. 607. so it's an old family. His father Svein.Descenents of Gunstein is found in Oddernes/Kristiansand and Mandal beside DOlholt early 1600.There are connections between Dolholt and Tjortedal/Hjortedal (in Holme) late 1600. Tjortedal was one of the farms given to the people who had to leave the farms when Kristiansand was groundes before mid 1600.I found a Lars Hansen, 29 at Hiortedahl 1801, not yours, but might show a name connection:LenkeIt's obvious that you have to do wide research.

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

Just a wild suggestion: Since Anne Larsdatter Vrensted appears as å sponsor after the period around 1801 when they are not found in Norway, it may be worth shile to check if they took up residence on the other side of Skagerask in those years.If my memory does not fail me, Vrensted is in Børglum parish in Hjørring county, and it may be a good place to start the search.Per

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Per is right about Vrensted. One of my ancestors came from that little danish village.

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Gjest Reina Pol

Thanks a lot for the explanation about the Dolholt familyhistory. That was information I wanted to know too. The family of Lars Hansen seems indeed absent in Norway in the period mentioned. The name Vrensted might be the key to this mystery. Thusfar I have never found this family back in the 1801 census in Denmark. May be I must try the churchrecords. Thank you all for your interest and best whishes to all of you. Reina

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Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen

Was Anne Larsdatter Vrensted Lars Hansen's daughter? Is that a correct understanding? In that case it may be necessary to find out where she got that name from (perhaps there is a clue here, in some way or another).

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Gjest Jarl Berge

For the interest it might have, it seems that the widow Ragnhild Jonsdatter Konsmo Kristiansand, was married to Sveinung Sveinungsen Manneraak Kristiansand who lived 1776-1831.

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Gjest Reina Pol

Thank you Jarl. I did not know this yet. I will concentrate on Ragnild Johnsdr.Yes this is the correct wedding. He came from Oldenburg. I never could trace him back thusfar. In 1813 he and Anne are seen at Frolands Værk. He was a snedker too.I am investigating Anne now for years and did a thorough investigation of all the persons who have called themselves Vrensted in Norway and in Denmark. Never there could be found a single connection between her (nor a Lars) and persons who have called themselves Vrensted etc. I have read all the churchrecords in the 18th century untill about 1810 or later in Brevik, Øyestad, Arendal, Landvik, Fjære, Kristiansand (baptismalrecords, sponsors, confirmations, except from confirmations in Kristiansand, which seems not present before 1812) and there is absolutely no connection with persons called Vrensted (no baptismalrecord of Anne, no confirmation record) nor have there been a Lars Vrensted (except from Lars Jensen Wrensted in Arendal who lived from about 1702-1785 an who has not been her father).Investigators in the past did no find a connection eighter. Not Anne nor a Lars Vrensted has been mentioned in C. Klitgaard, not in Finne Grønn, not in the historybook by F. Foss.Anne who has lived from 1819 onwards in time in the Netherlands (she is my g-g-g-grandmother) is mentioned 11 times after 1850 in the civil registration as being born in Norway, in 1784. At her obituary it is said that she was born in Arendal (which is not true). I have 4 different measurements at different moments concerning her age, which consequently refer to the birthyear 1784.At the baptism of her daughter Carolina Margaretha in 1817 in Kragerø, it is mentioned that Anne came from or was born in Kristiansand (she was not born there) and the name Hansen has been joined at the surname of her husband. I do'nt know the name of his father, could have been Hans. But because of the name Hansen (which must have been mentioned somehow) I concentrated on Anne, the daughter of Lars Hansen, which seems to fit the picture in more than one respect (born in 1784, not far from Arendal, living in Kristiansand, daughter called Carolina (Karen-Olina? Margaretha) and since that time I have found all the traces in Kristiansand which are mentioned here above.But indeed a real evidence is missing. That's why it is a pity that a comparison with censusrecords is not possible. And that was the start of my question to the Digital Archives, if there could be original censusrecords from Odderø somewhere. Thanks for your interest. Reina

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

Some times the brain is slow to start working. I have met this family before. I strongly suspect Lars Hansens brother Mads to be the same person as the best man in my great-great-great-grandfather's wedding, and later married himself to the sister of my great-great-great-grandmother. But I have never looked into his family. I would guess that Hans Larsen is one of the neibours of Ole Jonsen Dolholt who witnessed in his favour about a minor offense i 1772.I understand it your main consern is to verify the relationship between Anne Larsdatter Vrensted and Lars Hansen. In that matter I can contribute very little. But if you are interrested, I have fairly good coverage of Ole Jonsen's anchestors (on his wife I just have noted what Langraff wrote, I do not know the origin of the Gjessing family)

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Gjest Reina Pol

Well, it is a small world!. Mads Hansen (bapt. 18-12-1763 in Fjære) is also the son of Hans Larsen + Berthe Knudsdr (like Lars Hansen is). Mads Hansen has been married to Ingeborg Hansdr in 1786. I do'nt know who she is (well now she seems related to your family). But remarkably is that a certain Torjus Hansen (I believe he was called Torjus Hansen Fevig, married to Karen Olsdr) sponsors children of Mads Hansen and Mads Hansen sponsors children of Torjus Hansen.Yes, that's my main concern. If the name Hansen was not joined at the surname of Anne's husband at Kragerø (as I said his father's name could have been Hans, but I have my doubts, because every eldest son in the family has been called Nicolai or Nicolaas, so I suppose his father's name must have been Nicolaus or Claus) this Lars Hansen would never have called my attention so much. And the strange fact that it seems later to me that my Anne had some acquaintanceship to persons related to the family of Lars Hansen and Karen Olsdr in Kristiansand, seems not accidental to me. But of course it still could have been accidental.I did some research on the Gjessing family. I know what is mentioned in Landgraff. Kirstine Margrethe Sørensdr Gjessing's father: Søren Rasmussen Gjessing has been married to Aaslou Bentsdr. But I can'nt trace them back before about 1736.If I know for sure that Lars Hansen is really my ancestor I will continue to investigate this family and the family of Ole Joensen Dolholt back in the past.Thank you for all the information. Let's keep in touch.Reina

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Gjest Reina Pol

On second thoughts, Mr. Rosenkilde, I think I appreciate your knowledge from the Doholt family and I am interested in the information you have. Do you want to have my e-mail adress or can you ask the Digital Archives? Do you also know more about Hans Larsen and Berthe Knudsdr from Fjære?It may last some time before I can get more evidence of Anne Lars Vrensted being Lars Hansen's daughter. I think that thusfar a high degree of probability has been reached and that it will be very difficult for me to get more information about her in Norway.Kristian, do you have an adress from the Kristiansand Byarkiv?Thanks Reina

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Gjest Per Holte Rosenkilde

You may reach me at perrosen at online dot no.I have not been able to identify Hans and Berte so far, that may take some time.Best regards Per

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Gjest Reina Pol

Thank you very much. And thanks to everybody for answering my questions. Best whishes to all of you. Reina

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Gjest Kristian Fjeldsgård

ReinaThe best place to start is with the Statsarkivet i Kristiansand. They may give you helpLenke

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