[#51243] Tollev Bjørnsen Noreim

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

About Tollev Bjørnsen Noreim, born ca 1565 and married to Birgitte Nielsdatter-Bugge -- I am trying to figure out who was his father. I found two possibilities:Bjørn OddsenBjørn TollevsenIn 1563, one man is at Norenn in Ettne and the other is at Norem in Grindenes. There are no last names, so I can't tell which is which.I had assumed it was Bjørn Tollevsen, but found records on FamilySearch showing Bjørn Oddsen as his father.Can anyone help me?Hilsen Patti

[Gjest Kjellaug Robberstad Petit]

Tollev Björnsson Noreim was married to a daughter of Niels Bugge, but her name is not mentioned. Yngve Nedrebö wrote that the eldest children of this first marriage had a daughter called Lisbeth/Elisabeth, so the hypothesis is that Tollev Björnsson's wife was called Lisbeth/Elisabeth.Otherwise I think the bygdebook from the region has Björn Oddson Norheim as Tollev's father. Tollev and his sister Kari owned Björn Oddson's land in 1624.mvh Kjellaug

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

Hei KjellaugThanks! I got the information about Tollev's wife on the LDS site... but you never know if the information comes from an 'official' source. Her name is shown as Birgitte Nielsdatter Bugge. Her birth year & place vary from record to record. One shows that she is born in Denmark... others in Etne, at 'Enge' and Kambe.Their son, Zacharias, is my husband's 9th g-grandfather.You said 'Yngve wrote'. Does he have a post on this forum about this family? If so, can you tell me what words to search on... or give me a link to it?I appreciate your response.Hilsen Patti

[Gjest Kjellaug Robberstad Petit]

Unfortunately, I didn't keep the link, I just copied what Yngve Nedrebö and Per Ivar Rotvoll wrote. I hope you can read Norwegian!:Copy: Yngve Nedrebø: 'Tollef Bjørnsen Noreim var gift med en datter av Niels Bugge da han i 1606 undertegnet gavebrevet. Tollef hadde barn tilsynelatende født i to puljer, fra Sakkarias, født ca. 1595 til Anna, født mellom 1605 og 1610, og så barn født fra ca. 1620 til ca. 1630. Kan disse to gruppene ha hatt samme mor? Hun ville i så fall få barn over en periode på mer enn 30 år. Det er kanskje teoretisk mulig, men overmåte lite sannsynlig. En langt mer rimelig gjetning er at Tollef B. var gift to ganger, og at det bare er de eldste barna som var barnebarn av Niels Bugge. Hva het så denne datteren av Niels Bugge som ble gift med Tollef Noreim? Vi ser at de eldste barna til Tollef Noreim alle synes å ha døtre med navn Lisbet/Elisabeth. Dette beviser selvsagt intet, men skulle åpne for en mulighet.'Yngve Nedrebö: 'Når Lampe og andre hevder at Niels Bugge var gift med Bergitte Nielsdatter, er det utelukkende bygd på gavebrevet fra 1606. Og der har Bergitte Nielsdatter ganske riktig undertegnet, men ikke noe tyder på at denne Bergitte Nielsdatter var gift med Niels Bugge. Altså ganske sikkert en feilslutning. Derimot må Bergitte Nielsdatter ha undertegnet som datter av Niels Bugge. Siden hun undertegnet egenhendig regner jeg med at hun var ugift. Og dersom hun undertegnet, og var gift, hvorfor skulle da hennes ektemann undertegne? Og når Tollef Bjørnsen undertegnet må det ha vært på vegne av sin hustru, som altså IKKE kan være den Bergitte som allerede hadde undertegnet. Den eneste muligheten jeg ser for at Tollef Bjørnsen kan være gift med en Bergitte Nielsdatter Bugge, er at Niels Bugge hadde to døtre med samme navn! Og som nevnt ovenfor skulle en eventuell oppkalling snarere antyde at Tollefs kone het Elisabeth, og det dukket vel ikke opp noen Bergitte blant barnebarna til Tollef?'Per Ivar Rotvoll: 'Etter det eg har kome fram til, hadde Tolleif Bjørnson Norheim fem born i første ekteskapet, med ei dotter av Nils Bugge. Alle desse fem borna fekk kvar si dotter med namnet Lisbet. Som Nedrebø skriv, skulle dette vera ein god indikasjon på at dottera til Nils Bugge heitte Lisbet. Andre kona, som vart mor til fleirtalet av Tolleif Norheim sine ungar, var truleg dotter til Jon Helgeland på Sandeid. I alle høve arva Tolleif jordegods i Helgeland, og ein av dei eldste sønene (kanskje den eldste?) frå andre ekteskapet heitte Jon. Det interessante her er at ein son til Tolleif, Bjørn, vart busett på Helgeland. Bjørn døydde barnlaus. I Ryfylke tingbok går det fram at arvingane hansi april 1698 selde jordegods i Steinsland på Sandeid, gods som Bjørn Tolleifson hadde ått. Kjøpar var Tolleif Johanesson Bog i Jelsa, eldste brorson til Bjørn Tolleifson. Som seljarar på skøytet står ei rekkje personar. Det synest som om kvar av desse representerer eitt av borna til Tolleif Norheim. Seljarane er vidare oppførde etter fallande arverett, dvs. at Bjørn Tolleifson Helgeland sine heilsysken sine arvingar er nemnde først, deretter borna av halvsyskena. Basert på dette skal Tolleif Norheim ha hatt tolv ungar som levde opp, fem med Bugge-dottera og sju med andre kona.Fyrste kona: 1)Sakarias, gm. Anna Jonsdtr Tøtland i Hjelmeland 2) Lisbet gm. Odd Jonson Nedre Hauge i Hjelmeland 3) Madela gm. Erik Halvardson Frette, Etne 4) Anna gm. Tjerand Torson Høyland, Etne 5) Anna d.y. gm. Tørres Sjurson Ve, EtneAndre kona: 6) Bjørn gm. Karen Larsdtr, busett Helgeland på Sandeid 7) Lisbet d.y., gm. Haldor Erikson Ekrheim, Etne 8) NN (dotter) gm. Bernt Nilsson Frønsdal, Ølen 9) Johannes gm. Ingeborg Bjørnsdtr, b. Erøy i Erfjord 10) Nils gm. Marita Johannesdtr, b. Milja i Skånevik 11) Jon gm. Marta Helgesadtr, b. Skjold i Etne 12) NN (Kari ?) gm. Hans Alvaldson Nervik, Etne 'End of copyOtherwise Yngve Nedrebö has written something on this family: Lenke

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

Hei KjellaugHa! As soon as I asked for the link, I thought -- it will be in Norwegian! I can figure out basic things like 'born, married, died'. Also, I have a dictionary... but this is very slow going.Although three of my grandparents were born in Norway, we did not speak it in my house. So, I am unlucky in this regard.I will look at this and see what I can understand...mvh Patti

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

Patti,I also have Bugges in my ancestry.I have this translation and another one regarding Hans Nielsen Bugges 2nd marriage.Here is part 1Who was the parish priest Hans Nielsen Bugge married to?Hans Nielsen Bugge (ca. 1575-1637) was the parish priest of Etne in Sunhordaland from 1612 until his death. Before he became the parish priest he had been the kapellan (junior priest) in Etne for his father.Hans Bugge was an unusually productive family father. In the years from 1605 to the middle of the 1930s he became the father of at least 12 children. Of these, nine sons and one daughter reached adulthood. It is clear that Hans Bugge must have been married twice. In the list he provided in conjunction with the odels tax in 1624 he tells that half of the land under his control belonged to 6 minor children (Note 1). This land must have been land that they inherited from their mother, Hans Bugge's first wife, who must have died before the 1624 odels tax year. Many have discussed the question about who Hans Nielsen Bugge was married to. When it comes to his first wife, many guesses have been made as to whom she was, but no sure answer has been found, and she has continued to be unknown. Genealogists have had a concessus that Hans Bugge's second wife was ' Anne Bjørnsdatter Koch' said to be a daughter of the priest Bjørn Jenssen Koch who died in 1618. We have in the first paragraph raised the question about who Hans Nielsen Bugge was married to and that we are looking for new answers. We shall see that it is possible to determine the name of his first wife and that 'Anne Bjørnsdatter Koch' could not have been his wife number two. It is doubtful that one today can find original sources about who Hans Bugge's first wife was, but such sources have existed in the past. The historian from Bergen, Edvard Edwardsen (1630-1695) mention from his sources that 'Vita D. Sam: Bugge' (Note 5) which must have been the manuscript used for the funeral service for the priest Samuel Hansen Bugge (1605-1663). Information about the Vita manuscript is repeated in ' Bergen's description'. (Note 6) Here it is told that Samuel Hansen Bugge was borne on 25 September 1605 on the farm Kambe, located in Etne and that his mother's name was 'Anna Bjørns Daater'. Samuel was Hans Bugges oldest child. Anna Bjørnsdatter must therefore be his first wife and the mother of the six children that were previously mentioned in conjunction with the 1624 odels tax. That Anne Bjørnsdatter has been thought to be Hans Bugge's second wife comes from a series of misunderstandings. It is also misunderstandings that has led to the premise that Anne was a daughter of Bjørn Koch as he died childless. In 1626 came Christen Jenssen, parish priest in Aurland, to the bishop's sea in Bergen with money that Samuel Koch had inherited 'from holy her Bjørn Koch's uncle' The nearest inheritors of Bjørn Koch were thus his siblings and their children. The possibility that there is a connection between Anne Bjørnsdatter and Bjørn Koch is therefore disproved, but we will try to find other solutions.In the list of farm property in 1624, Hans Bugge differentiates between Odels property and other property. The odels property (property that had been owned by the family for more than 30 years) consisted of parts of five farms. Converted to 'smørskyld' (a measure of the value of the property) there was a combined valuation of 3 laupar 57 merker. One of the farms in which he had part ownership in was located in Nordhordland while the other four farms in which he had part ownership were concentrated in the Etne-Skånevik area. Hans Bugge could not have inherited this odels property from his parents since his sisters had not received any of the property which they would have been entitled to. The explanation for how he inherited the property must be that he got it from his first wife, Anne Bjørnsdatter. If this theory is correct we can expect to find Hans Bugge's father in law among the farm owners in Etne/Skånevik. The fact that Bjørn was a rather uncommon name points to the farmer in Etne, Bjørn Oddsen Noreim as a prime candidate as Anna Bjørnsdatter's father. Bjørn Noreim was one of the richest farmers in Etne in the last part of the 1500s. It had been shown earlier that he had connections with the Bugge family. His son, Tollef Bjørnsen, was married to a daughter of Nils Bugge. A sister trade of the farm property is probable in which case Anne came from Noreim in Etne. The odels census from 1624 gives information about the ownership of Toleif Bjørnsen Noreim and his unmarried sister Karen. If we convert the value of the property to 'smørskyld' (taxable value) we find that Tollef owned farm land valued at 7 lauper 45 merker, while Karen owned 3 lauper 61 merker. (Note 10) We can thus see that the odels farm land owned by Hans Bugge (3 lauper 57 merker) pretty much agrees with the one half of what Tollef Noreim owned. (My note: A daughter could only inherit one half as much as a son.) The calculation of the size of the odels property has not weakened the premise that Anne Bjørnsdatter is a daughter of Bjørn Noreim

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

A friend ( now deceased ) was researching Hans Nielsen Bugge and sent me this.He said it appeared that Esaias Hansen Bugge f.1827 was the son of Hans Bugge and 2nd wife Maren Andersdtr. In a book about parish priests in Skånevik I found the following information. Esaias Bugge borne ca. 1627 was a foster child of his grandparents, the parish priest and prost Anders Jonsen and Margrete Mikkelsdatter. He must have been one of the children who was left both motherless and fatherless after his mother Maren Andersdatter died. The book further states that Esaias Bugge became the parish priest in Valle in Setersdalen and that it was he who gave the 'likpreken' (cadaver sermon) over his grandmother Margrete Mikkelsdatter from the pulpit in his parish. In the book, I found the following: After becoming a widow, Margrete moved to the farm Milja which had previously been owned by her cousin Hans Bugge. After looking at the sisters and brothers of Margrete Mikkelsdatter's parents, I still could not find the family connection between Margrete and Hans Bugge. If they were cousins, there may have been other children born to Adrian Falkner (the grandfather of Margrete Mikkelsdatter) which were unknown.

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

As for Torleif Bjørnsens ( Bjørn Oddsen Norheim )wife Birgitte Nielsdtr.Bugge f.ca 1580 ( sister of Hans Nielsen Bugge )she was named after her mother Birgitte Nielsdtr who married Niels Hanssøn Bugge.According to the information I have. Ron

[Gjest Kjellaug Robberstad Petit]

According to the 1606-giftletter, Birgitte cannot be Torleif's wife. She signed the letter and so did he. If she had been married to him, she wouldn't have signed it.

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

OK... this is a lot of information! And I have not had time to absorb it all yet. But I want to thank you both, Kjellaug & Ron, for your posts.Kjellaug, one question comes to mind right now... what is a 'giftletter'?mvh Patti

[Gjest Kjellaug Robberstad Petit]

In Norwegian 'gave brev' - it's a written document about a donation. Sorry, I didn't find any good translation.

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

So, why wouldn't Birgitte have signed it? Is it because if they were married, there would have been inappropriate for her to sign if her husband had signed already? Am I understanding this? So... that means she was an individual donor, right?Thank you Kjellaug... Hilsen Patti

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

Kjellaug,is not giftletter a notice of marriage? According to my information,Niels Hanssøn Bugge had 1 son Hans Nielsen Bugge and 2 daughters Birgitte and Sara.Possibly born in Fana where Niels Bugge was a junior prest 1570-.It is said Birgitte married Torleif Bjørnsen in 1606.This agrees with ' Bjørn Oddsen Noreims son Tolleif married a daughter of Nils Bugge ' Niels Bugge became Søgneprest of Etne/Skåneland in 1607 so Yngves theory is very correct. I have no information on the other daughter Sara so its always possible ( unlikely f.1590 )she married Torleif. Ron

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

Sorry that should have been 1603 when Niels Bugge became Søgneprest of Etne.Hans Bugge was kappelan ( junior prest )for his father in 1604. Ron

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

Some researchers have Lisbet Nilsdtr.Bugge as marrying Torleif Bjørnsen Norheim.Its possible Sara is being confused with Hans Bugges daughter. I believe Kjellaug is referring to the gift to Bergen Latin school in Oct.1606 by Niels Bugge that refers to his wife Birgitte Nielsdtr, his son Hans and Niels son in law Torleif Bjørnsen. It does not say who Torleifs wife was. Ron

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

According to Per Nermos information Niels Bugge had 11 children and he shows Lisbeth Bugge married Torleif Bjørnsen Norheim.Per is a very reliable source of information. RonLenke

[Gjest Ron Berg-Iverson]

Mogens Bugge,brother of Niels Bugge is my ancestor by the way,through my grandmothers family from Bronnøy. Ron

[Gjest Patricia Carlsen Mikkelsen]

I have a question for Kjellaug and/or Yngve -- regarding the name of Tollev Bjørnsen's wife.If I understand this -- the main reason it was presumed that Birgitte Nielsdatter Bugge was NOT Tollev's wife was because she signed the 'gave brev' with him. But if it was her mother (wife of Niels) who signed the letter, does it make a stronger case that Birgitte (the daughter) might be Tollev's wife?Are there any sources showing that Niels Bugge had a daughter named Lisbeth?Just wondering...Hilsen Patti

[Gjest Kjellaug Robberstad Petit]

I don't think there are any specific sources giving the name of Nils Jensen Bugge's wife.Also some of the children that have been added to this family are probably a pure invention.The donation in 1606 was to the Latin school (200 rdl).The fact that Tollev's wife might have been called Elisabeth/Lisbeth is also a hypothesis. I doubt that Per Nermo can come up with any source here-:) The only reason is that Tollev's eldest children each had a daughter called Elisabeth/Lisbeth.I guess we'll just have to accept that Tollev's daughter was a Bugge daughter (not Birgitte) and that Nils J. Bugge's wife is unknown unless a magical source suddenly appears-:)Hilsen Kjellaug (off to Norway tomorrow morning)