[#58270] Bratt and Rudi

[Gjest K. Amelia Brown]

Is Laurits Pedersen Bratt the same person as Lauridz Rudi?

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Never heard him mentioned as Rudi, but Laurits' uncle Erik Trondssøn Tynnøl (Bjølstad) (born abt 1525 at Tynnøl - division of inheritance 28. sept. 1606 at Rudi in Heidalen) is said to have acquired Rudi.

[Gjest Helge Hålåsæter]

Rudi was owned by the Bratt at Bjølstad. The actual owner of lower Rudi is a direct Bratt descendant, Anne Gunn Nermo, Øyer). Rudi is a side by side farm of Bjølstad (neighbour). Helge H.

[Gjest Karen Amelia Brown]

Thank you for the information.Is Bratt a title or does Bratt refer to a place?According to FamilySearch information Laurits Pedersen Bratt and his wife Ingrid Olsdatter Grue had a son named Hans Lauritzen Bratt, birth 1586. According to the Digitalarkivet census records for Gudbrandsdalen, in 1666 Hans Larsøn, birth about 1585 [81 in 1666] lived at Rudi farm, Vaage subparish, Vaage parish, Gudbrandsdalen province. The Hans Larson who lived at Rudi farm in 1666 was my ancestor.

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Mvh Lars Ove

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Lars Ove

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Hence, according to Lars Oves references, Hans Lauritzen Bratt and his possible wife Anne Østensdatter were 2nd cousins. Their common ancestors should be Østen (Eystein) Guttormsen Bratt Væpner, lagrettesmann Vågå and Thora (Tove) Thordsdatter Tjerne.Hans Østensen Bratts father-in-law, Østen Eriksen at Rudi (died bef. 14 Nov 1608) did probably inherit Rudi from his father Erik Trondssøn Tynnøl (Bjølstad) (my entry no. 2, above) who was probably married into the Bratt family by marrying his own stepmothers sister, Thore Østensdatter Bratt (1510 at Bjølstad - bef. 28. Sept. 1606 at Rudi).

[Gjest Karen Amelia Brown]

Thank you. I am very grateful for the two pages (pp.263 & 264) about Rudi farm. I printed them and will try to translate using my Norsk-Engelsk dictionary. Were the pages previous to page 263 about Rudi farm also? Osten Eriksen and his ancestors are also my ancestors.

[Gjest Karen Amelia Brown]

When I wrote the above message I hadn't read Christian Arentz's second message. Thank you, Christian, for your summary.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Karen,Just to make sure I didn't mislead you to believe I made a summary of the pages.No, the comments I made under (8) is just general information from my own database, apart from the information in pp 263 and 264 that Hans Lauritzen was married to Anne, a daughter of Østen Eriksen.This leads me back to your original question: Is Laurits Pedersen Bratt the same person as Lauridz Rudi? In my opinion, NO, since his son Hans got Rudi through his wife. Unless, of course, Laurits died at his sons farm, after losing his own farm By in Veldre following a court ruling in 1610, and/or he had a share in Rudi even earlier. Maybe pp. 262 will tell-

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

262:Lars Ove

[Gjest Marilla Schenk]

Hello, Lars Ove, could you please tell us the name of the book and the name of the author? I hope it wasn't mentioned already and I failed to see it. Thank you very much!

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Lars Ove

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Unfortunately, page 262 didn't tell where Laurits Pedersen Bratt died, or whether he owned anything in Rudi.According to my previous notes, Laurits Pedersen Bratt (d. bef. 1659) owned parts in Herringstad in Heidal, Vik in Kvam, and in Grue, Eidsvoll before 1624 (Hougen: Veldre bygdebok). In 1624, he just owned parts in Hammerstad in Stange, in Grue, Eidsvold, in Herringstad and in a farm in Firing (NST II, s. 121). I haven't noted any ownership in Rudi on his hand.Further, since I am a lucky owner of the NST series, I came accross Lars Oves article above in NST II (1930): pp. 260-264. The subtitle of this article: 'A correction and an addition' refers to the original article: E. A. Thomle: 'Den saakaldte familie Bratt i Gudbrandsdalen, NST II pp. 97-122 and its predecessor in NST I, p. 72-115.No further mentioning of how his father's brother-in-law Erik Trondssøn Tynnøl (Bjølstad) aquired Rudi, there, either. Maybe he also got the farm from his mothers side?I have earlier noted that Erik was the son of Trond Eindridessøn Tynnøl (Abt 1495 - Abt 1555, both in Lesja) but have no documented information about his mother. Some speculate her name was Åse Guttormsdatter Bratt born abt. 1480 (a possible daughter of Guttorm Eindridson Bratt and Cecilia Petersdatter Skiaaker).Hopefully, someone else may tell you the latest research position on that subject.

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Mvh Lars Ove

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Lars Ove

[Gjest Lars Ove Wangensteen]

Lars Ove

[Gjest K. Amelia Brown]

Thanks you, Lars Ove Wangensteen, for all the pages. Thank you, Christian Arentz, for all your comments.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Don't mention, it, K. Amelia! You may wish to see the complete front page 260 here: Lenke Hence, you are only missing page 261.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Further to (14):As yet, as this debate has scrolled away from current debates, no Middle Age experts have been feeling called upon to inform us of the State-of-the-art hypothesis on: 'who was the mother of Erik Trondssøn Tynnøl (Bjølstad) (Abt 1525 Tynnøl - 1605 Bjølstad)'.Whenever it is true that her name was Åse Guttormsdatter Bratt (1480-), this might in fact explain how Erik got the farm:The father of Åse, Guttorm Eindridson Bratt (Abt 1437 - 1530, both Bjølstad) may, it seems, have inherited the farm from his grand-father Eirik Bjørnson Bratt Bjølstad (1364-1431) who bought Rudi in Hedalen 21. Jan. 1430 at Ullensyn: Lenke

[Gjest Svein Botterud]

I have looked through the works of Engebret Hougen and in his vol. iii of Ættesoge for Gudbrandsdalen, discussing the Valbjør-/Tynnøl-lines, he speculates that Hans and Eilif might be brothers. Otherwise he is repeating what is in the text above.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

A brotherhood between Eilif and Hans would also mean Anne Østensdatter didn't just marry her second cousin Hans(innlegg 7), but also the brother of her stepfather Eilif. Was that a possibility, those days?

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Thank you, Svein for your comments. It's always nice to receive some endorsements of recent statements.Notwithstanding Guttorm Eindridson Bratt (Abt 1437 - 1530, both Bjølstad) was the father of Åse (married to Trond Eindrideson Tynnøl, he shall also have had a son Øystein Guttormsen Bratt (abt. 1475 - 1550, both at Bjølstad), the grandfather of Laurits Pedersen Bratt at Bye in Veldre (innlegg 1). Laurits filed a court case and recovered Bye 1601 thanks to Aasætesretten and moved there, a farm that he had inherited from his great grand mother (Cecilie Pedersdatter Skiaker). He did however lose a later odels case on the same farm for Herredagen 20. June 1610 (HDD 1610, s. 89f).Cecilie Pedersdatter Skiaker (1432 Skjåk - 1509 Bjølstad) shall in turn have inherited the Bye farm from her great grand mother (mothers fathers mother) by the same name: Cecilie Sigurdsdotter.As I don't have Engebret Hougens articles at hand, can this be confirmed as well?

[Gjest Svein Botterud]

According to Haugen, the names of Trond Eindridesson's two wifes are not known but one is possibly from Valbjørg. He more or less rejects the possibility of the marriage to Åse Eysteinsdatter. I find the information on Per Nermo's pages to be in line with E. Haugen. LenkeThe 1610 case is also mentioned by Haugen.Your last statement about the Cecilies I could not find immediately in Haugen's works.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Thanks for your useful update, Svein,Hence, acc. to Nermo (and Haugen), Åse Eysteinsdatter Bratt (Abt 1510 - Aft 1557) may instead (innlegg 23) have been married to Trond Eindrideson Tynnøls son, Trond Trondson Tynnøl (Abt 1520 Tynnøl - Bef 1557).Further, acc. to Nermo, Trond Eindridesons (abt. 1495 - abt. 1455, both at Lesja) possible 3rd marriage to Åse Guttormsdatter Bratt (born abt. 1480 at Bjølstad, not 1516 - died aft 1558) who may have been married to a Trond, is not completely ruled out.Cecilie Pedersdatter Skiakers (1432 Skjåk - 1509 Bjølstad) great grand mother Cecilie Sigurdsdotter (born 1338, Giske) is however also mentioned at the same web-site (Nermo) as a daughter of Norsk riksråd, sysselmann i Bergen and baron (1305-83) Sigurd Haftorsen Sudrheim (abt. 1310 - 1391/feb 1393 Borregård) in or outside his marriage with Ingebjørg Erlingsdotter (Abt 1310 - Bef 1400).Do you know whether the last information on her is verifyable as well?