[#59312] Old Church 'Ornaments'

[Gjest Marlys Nelson]

I am reading the list of church 'ornaments' in Lesja church (as recorded by a 'grandfather,' Jens Staby, for the Bispedømes Jordebok in 1574-1577). My dictionary isn't very helpful. Can anyone translate? Klocker och ij hand klocker (clocks?) Thierre Kielle (??) Gammell Kielle Kaber (??) Enn dansk bibbell (Danish bible) Enn Gammell Mesbehaggell och Mesbeserek (suplice?) Enn forgyltt Kalk forudenn disk Veiger (chalice?) Any suggestions are welcomed!

[Gjest erling t. endresen]

Let me try:Clocks and 2 (II) handheld clocks, kettle for or made from tar, old copper kettle, one Danish bible, one old chasuble and 'a priests shift' (?), one guilden chalice and platter, wicks (?)/ (candles?)

[Gjest Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

I think you would say 'inventory' about this list; list of the things found in the church.With some reservations regarding the language of the time and the transcription (modern Norwegian in parenthesis): 'Klocker' (klokker) =bells; 'och ij hand klocker' (og 2 handklokker) = and 2 (roman numerals) hand bells; 'thierre kielle' (tjørekjel) = tar kettle (they used tar on the outside walls and roof of the building); 'Gammell kielle kaber' (gammal kjel kopar) = old kettle (made of) copper; 'Enn dansk Bibbell' (ein dansk bibel) = a Danish Bible; 'Enn gammell Mesbehaggell' (ein gammal messehagel) = an old chasuble; 'and Mesbeserek' (og messeserk - that is literally, although I do not think anyone use this word in modern Norwegian) it is either a cassock/vestment ('prestekjole') or an surplice/alb ('messeskjorte'); 'Enn forgyltt Kalk foruden disk' (ein forgylt kalk og ein disk) = an gilded chalice and a plate; 'Veiger' = ?I suspect 'Mesbehaggell och Mesbeserek ' might actually be 'Messe-' (the b does not fit in).

[Gjest Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

Erling is probably right about 'Veiger' (veikar) = wicks.

[Gjest Marlys Nelson]

Thanks for your suggestions Ivar and Erling...they seem to make sense, though I wonder about that tar kettle! Times were hard, for sure....when that priest went to his next parish, he had no horse but had to pull his 'kone' on some sort of sledge (toboggan) instead! Thanks again.

[Gjest Arnstein Rønning]

'veiger' kan kanskje bety at den veier så og så mye (uten at vekta er med her). Det blir i alle fall skrevet slik i skifter, når vekta skal angis på metall.

[Gjest erling t. endresen]

Nouns were normally spelled with a capital letter whereas verbs were not...

[Gjest Arnstein Rønning]

That's right.

[Gjest Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

Erling (7)(and Arnstein(8)): It is right that nouns were capitalized while verbs were not. That is - in the 19th century and also practiced in 18th century printing. In handwriting much later than the 1570s, capitalization seems to be practiced by incidence or random. Thus - this is no 'rule' that can help us in the interpretation.Marlys (5): The tar kettle belonged do the church because they used tar as a 'surface treatment' to preserve the material of the walls and roof. see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_tarArnstein (6): 'Veiger' = weights was an alternative I rejected when writing my first posting (3). It might be, however, we should expect a quantity of mass following it. Wicks makes sense, because we would expect the church to have wicks - probably for a lamp. The next question then is where the lamps are - when not in the list. And what about candles. A possible answer is that the lamps were fixed in the church, and thus not 'movables'. And that a poor church did not have candles.

[Gjest erling t. endresen]

Maybe they used a 'kole', a lamp for oil and wicks?

[Gjest Marlys Nelson]

In the Jordebok,following the entry for Veiger is 'xxix Køllinsche lødt'...that may indicate an amount and provide a better explanation as to the word Veiger, as you suggest, Ivar. I just found two references to this priest in Engebret Hougen's book: Regarding a document Staby prepared in 1575...'he was a clumsy writer...both in spelling and style.' Regarding the 'wealth' of the community...Staby said he 'would have to go from that bygda as he couldn't keep body and soul together there!' So we probably can't depend on his list for accuracy and the parish was so poor it's not surprising they had so little to list. Thanks again for all your opinions on the jordebok contents.

[Gjest erling t. endresen]

... which maybe could indicate a kind of weight...? I have no idea, but matbe 29 Kølnske lodd????? Maybe Ivar knows better

[Gjest Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

29 (xxix) lodd according to Kølnian (Colognian) weight corresponded to 423 gram, and this system was used for gold and silver (according to Historisk leksikon). If this refers to the chalice (and plate), it is quite heavy. And if this was silver (which is not unlikely), it would represent a considerable value - although not a 'liquid' value.It may be that the inventory did not include articles of consumption, like candles (and wicks), wine and bread for communion, etc.