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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

[#62280] Looking for (the ancestors of) Samuel Prom - 18th century

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Sorry for not being able to communicate in Norwegian and also for writing this fairly long e-mail, but I'm looking for the ancestors of one Samuel Prom, assuming he is the father of Peter Markoe Prom. This Peter Prom married to a lady called Manuela Monteverde (no further details available) and their daughter Josepha del Carmen Prom Petersen (1851 - 1911; adopted by Georg Diedrich Asmus Petersen and Caroline Weidemann) married into the Bech family in Denmark. Peter Prom allegedly died in Brazil.The Samuel Prom of which I'm looking for his ancestors was married to Elisabeth Markoe (see 24 Dec 1795 [www.progenealogists.com]: Samuel Prom & Elisabeth Markel, St. Croix 5 Jun 1794 marriage contract). As it seems he was an estate broker from Norway!! Which is why I hope this forum can help. See in Danish [ryegaard.dk] : 'På St.Croix har han mødt Anne Eliza Norbach Prom, født 29 aug. 1800. Hendes far var nordmanden og mægleren Samuel Prom og moderen var engelsk og hed Elisabeth Markoe'. Elizabeth Markoe was born -I was told- 11 June 1775 so I'm assuming Samuel Prom was also born in or before 1775.What I was also able to find, looking into the Danish 1840 and 1845 census details on [www.ddd.dda.dk] was that in 1840 one Peter Markov Prom, 27 years old, was staying in the Ryegaard estate in Roskilde, Denmark, the house of the count Scheel family. He was indicated to be travelling from the United States being single (unmarried). In the house -obviously- the owners were living too: count Henrik Jørgen Scheel, the owner of the Stamhuset Rosenkranz, and his wife Ann Eliza Morbach (Norbach?) Scheel. And also Eliza Prom, born Markov, a widow aged 66 was living there, living from her pension. Peter is -however- not being mentioned as Eliza Prom's son ...According to the Danish 1845 census in that year in the same house one William Henry Hartmann Prom, aged 41 and single, was living, son of Eliza Prom, a widow aged 68, living of her pension. Both were born in St. Croix. I would assume this is the same Eliza Prom as the one of 1840 although, by my humble calculations, she should by now have been about 71 rather than 68 (five years later ... but old ladies do lie about their age ... ;-)).Peter Markoe Prom should thus have been born around 1813. And William Henry Hartmann Prom could be his brother (Hartman[n] being his grandmother's name) and Anne Eliza Morbach Prom his sister (why Morbach one would wonder)? However, William is born around 1804, and Anne 1800 which makes the age difference with Peter (born around 1813) quite significant ... And 'mother' Eliza would have been 39 approximately when Peter was born, i.e. quite old. So I'm still not certain about the various links between these -what I suppose to be- family members.I also found people with the last name Prom on the website [members.fortunecity.com] and there a book was referenced V. Hostrup Schultz, Et par blade af Matz Jensen Prommus og hans descendenters historie (Copenhagen 1900). And I also noticed reference to a book by one Christian Ludvig Jensen, Optegnelser om de norske grener av slekterne Jensen fra Mildstedt i hertugdømmet Schlesvig, og Prom fra Slagelse i Sjælland (Oslo 1934).But I cannot find any details about Samuel Prom and his ancestors or indeed more details about the Peter Markoe Prom I mentioned above (e.g. whether indeed he died in Brazil).On [www.dagbladet.no] one Samuel Prom is mentioned but that one seems to have been born in 1726 (but my knowledge of Scandinavian languages is as you can see virtually non-existent ...). And there's one Samuel Prom married to a lady called Anna Sophie Sems [www.tuxen.info] but this Prom died in 1758. (I think these two are the same anyhow)May be this is the Samuel Prom about whom the Norwegian poet Christian Braunmann Tullin (1728-1765) wrote the following:- 'Lev og græd: Livets Valsprog for de tænkende. Vandflod følger Vandflod: Dæmningerne vare neppe opreiste, nu brast de paa ny. O hvor ofte oversvømmes mit Hjerte! Taare udgydes strømmeviis; Altid for Venner; Her for en af de beste, SAMUEL PROM, fød den 31. May 1726. for at begræde en Kone, Birgitte Marie Tullin. Død den 8. Martii 1758. for at begrædes af den anden Anne Sophie Sem; af fire umyndige; af en Flok Venner; af mig. O hvilket Tab er en tabt Ven! Farvel min Jonathan'Which clearly seems therefore not to be the Samuel Prom I'm looking for...It's finally also not entirely clear to me who the Samuel Prom on the list of inhabitants on [www.dkconsulateusvi.com]# is (page 440), but his father is also mentioned as a broker.I'm afraid this is all I have. So if there's anyone who can help me any further that would be highly appreciated!!As said I would expect the guy to come from Norway, hence my posting on this website.Many thanks from The Netherlands, Jan (Schultheiss)

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Gjest Randi Broli

In a list of Examinati Juris 1736-1814 there is a Povel Albert Prom. [url="http://www.genealogi.no/kilder/Juris/index.htm>http://www.genealogi.no/kilder/Juris/index.htmWhat caught my attention was that he had been working as a copist at St. Croix. In his petition (of 1795 I suppose) he says that he is 39 years old and the son of a long deceased byfogd (Stipendiary magistrate, perhaps) in the town of Moss, Østfold.See also Prom, Søren Christian, who is clearly a brother, their mother being a daughter of sorenskriver (District stipendiary magistrate) Jens Bærøe in Follo. (The Prom/Bærøe couple christened a son Lauri? in Moss on 5 November 1757. The father was then a Societetstoller, and probably later a byfogd).There was a byfogd Jacob Prom in Moss. He was born 1728, and could be the same as the Jacob Pram mentioned under Examinati Juris. List of Tollere (Customs officers) 1563-1886: http://www.genealogi.no/kilder/Tollere/index.htmOslo Domkirke 4/6 1726: Christened Samuel (probably the same as you mentioned). Parents were Cantor Lars Prom and Ellen Halvorsdatter. 11/5 1728: Jacob. Parents Lars Prom and Ellen Halvorsdatter. I suppose this could be Jacob Prom in Moss.I know virtually nothing about Prom families in Norway, but thought I would mention these persons. Given the connection to St. Croix and the name of Samuel, I suppose one can't rule out a relation. The scanned churchbooks:

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Thanks a lot for this information. The link with St. Croix is interesting indeed. But ... it will remain a difficult and challenging task to find Samuel Prom and his ancestors ... In particular where everything is abroad and in -for me- foreign language. But: I intent to remain optimistic!

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Gjest Ann-Mary Engum

1801:Søren Christian Prom Logerende 34 Ugift Procurator Lenke

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Gjest Randi Broli

I just discovered that the churchbooks for Moss are on FamilySearch. I did a parent search with Jacob Prom. He and Cathrine Bærøe had many children from 1757, among them a Samuel 1758. Jacob Prom and Anne Elisabet Morbak had 2 children 1775 and 1782. What do you think?

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Hi Randi -- I think that in terms of age this Samuel Prom, born in 1758, could well be the Samuel Prom that married in 1795 in St Croix (on the Danish Virgin Islands) to Elizabeth Markoe, a lady of English ancestry. So this piece of information looks well worth looking into further!! This said: thanks you very much again for your help!Ann-Mary -- also many thanks for your information. All tiny pieces hopefully help to 'map' the Prom family!Best regards from The Netherlands (but in Stockholm, Sweden now ... ;-))

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Hi Randi - me again. The name Morbak of course also should have rang a bell given that, as I understand, one Ann Eliza Morbach Scheel (see above) was a daughter of Samuel Prom and Elizabeth Markoe. This said it indeed looks like you may have found 'my' Prom!! But ... I could not find any of those you mentioned in Family Search (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp , right?) myself so may be I'm searching in the wrong way?

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Gjest Per B. Lilje

(6): You find this as number two on the left hand side here (in Moss): [url="http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=7512&idx_id=7512&uid=ny&idx_side=-17>Lenke19th December 1758: Societets Tolder Jacob Proms og ...... Bærøes Søn Samuel døbt.I.e. Jacob Prom, the father of this Samuel, was a customs officer in Moss in 1758. If the pedigree chart on family search is right, he was born in 1728 and married 15 July 1753 Anne Cathrine Bærøe (1732-1770). If the chart is correct, Anne Cathrine's mother was called Else Wind Rummelhoff (1705-1762). Probably it should be easy to find her in family literature, Rummelhoff is an old noble family, originally German-Baltic from Estonia, while Wind is an old Danish noble family.The wedding of Jacob Prom and Anne Cathrine Bærøe is found here in Ås in Akershus:

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Gjest Per B. Lilje

The information on the Prom family has been submitted to Family Search by Johanne Hernes, her e-mail address is given here: Lenke

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Gjest Randi Broli

Very good, Per. I think we need to join forces here.Jan (8): Yes, Anne Elisabeth Morbach is indeed another indication. Seems like Samuel has named one of his daughters after his stepmother, then. One Anna Elizabeth Morbach 16 was confirmed in Moss 1767.On the FS form choose advanced search. Then International Genealogical Index (IGI) on the left. Region: Norway. Batch number: C424671. Father: jacob. Last name: prom. Search, and you will get 12 hits. This could be done because I knew the batchnumber for christenings © in Moss for the period.I always use hammerum-herred.dk for Scandinavian churchbooks to see what is available. http://hammerum-herred.dk/news.php Choose batch numre on the left side. Then Norway and (in this case) Ostfold. Then: send forespørgsel. I'm not very good at explaining these things. Come back and ask again if you need to. Perhaps somebody else can make it more understandable.

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Hi Per (8) and Randi (11) - thank you very much for all the information! As I've been travelling I had no time to look into all details yet (but ... it's almost weekend ... ;-)). It seems you brought me to the right spot, so your help has been invaluable! What I did find already on Else Rummelhoff is a reference as it seems to her spouse: 'Kroksrud tilhørte i middelalderen Hovedøy kloster. Etter dettes øde-leggelse i 1532 gikk den store godssamlingen, og deriblant Kroksrud, over til kronen, som eide gården helt til Søren Jensen Bærøe på Husvik fikk auksjonsskjøte på den i Christiania ved det store krongodssalget i 1726. Prisen var 250 rd. Søren Bærøes enke Else Vind v. Rummelhoff giftet seg med den senere sorenskriver Christian Behman, som dermed ble eier av Kroksrud. 1741 solgte han gården til brukeren Rasmus Anonsen'. Also: 'prokurator Christian Behman. Denne var g.m. Else Vind v. Rummelhoff 1705—62, datter av kommandant på Munkholmen major Johan Henrik Rummelhoff. Hun var enke etter kjøpmann i Drøbak Søren Jensen Bærø'. And: 'I 1727 skjøtet han Håøya med underliggende holmer og øyer for 1000 rd. til den rike Søren Bærø, som fra 1729 bodde i eget hus på Husvik. Salget omfattet «huse og brygger» på Håøya. Det er mulig at Søren Bærø hogg skogen nokså hardt, for ved skiftet etter ham i 1737 ble taksten bare 600 rd. Hans enke Else v. Rummelhoff giftet seg med soren- skriver Christian Behman, som dermed også ble eier av Håøya og de andre øyene'.Haakon Falck Myckland, Bygdebok for frogn - Gardshistorien (Frogn 1967), 72, 249, 686 on www.frogn.historielag.org/04frogns_historie/Frogn_ Bygdebok.pdf

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

On the website The family Hagerup and a few other individuals (Lenke) I found one Anna Chatarina Bærøe (!) Prom, born on December 3rd 1791 in Bergen as daugher of a Jacob Prom and Maren Ritscher. This particular Jacob Prom is said to be born around 1760 in Bergen as the son of one Carl Friderich Prom and Hanna Elisabeth Tuxen. He married Maren on March 11th 1788 in Nykirken.It's the name Bærøe that puzzles me. One could think that this Jacob therefore was not a son of Carl Fridrich but rather of Jacob Prom and Cathrine Bærøe, i.e. the one that was baptized on 13 July 1761 in Moss.

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

On the website The family Hagerup and a few other individuals (Lenke) I found one Anna Chatarina Bærøe (!) Prom, born on December 3rd 1791 in Bergen as daugher of a Jacob Prom and Maren Ritscher. This particular Jacob Prom is said to be born around 1760 in Bergen as the son of one Carl Friderich Prom and Hanna Elisabeth Tuxen. He married Maren on March 11th 1788 in Nykirken.It's the name Bærøe that puzzles me. One could think that this Jacob therefore was not a son of Carl Fridrich but rather of Jacob Prom and Cathrine Bærøe, i.e. the one that was baptized on 13 July 1761 in Moss.

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Gjest Randi Broli

I would like to correct something that I wrote in (2). The mother of Povel Albert and Søren Christian Prom was of course not the daughter of sorenskriver Jens Bærøe in Follo, but his sister.Bergen 1749. Deceased Helchie M Lind. Widower Carl F Prom. Their children Andreas Christian, Christopher, Sara and Anna. [url="http://da2.uib.no/cgi-win/WebBok.exe?slag=lesside&bokid=solliedskift&sideid=493&storleik=>LenkeLater in the year Carl F Prom marries H E Tuxen. LenkeCarl Prom possibly died about 1760. His estate was broke.

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Gjest Randi Broli

I don't know why the Bergen databases disappeared again. Try this: Select English at the foot of the page. Then Database selector at the top left. Search criteria: Bergen. Then search.

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Gjest Jan Schultheiss

Hi Per, as regards the Rummelhoff / Wind connection (6) I think I now found the parents of Else Wind Rummelhoff: as it seems one Hendrik Johan von Rummelhoff who was married to Anna Catharina Wind. And their respective parents were Bartholomæus (von) Rummelhoff (indeed from the Baltics) / Margaretha Elisabeth Resdorff and Joachim Fredrik Wind / Else Urup. See Lenke

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