[#70719] Cecilie Cathrine Widing - 1.(?-1759) m. Garmann 2. (1713-1780) m. Heiberg

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

I have come accross an interesting situation in my research. I wonder how common it is to have two people with identical names. I guess they thought the names were so fine that everyone wanted to use them.For example, one of the wives of Christopher Garmann was named Cecilie Cathrine Widing. She is supposed to still haunt Utstein Kloster as her husband broke his promise to her and remarried. You may find a picture of Cecilie and her husband Christopher at these links: [url="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Utstein_kloster_12_Christopher_Garmann.jpg>LenkeLenkeChristopher Garmann's first wife was born Wenche von der Lippe and married Chrisphoher Garmann Aug. 4, 1750 at Nykirke, Bergen. Wenche Dahl fodt Garmann was born Oct. 22, 1751 and her mother died shortly thereafter on Nov. 17, 1751, both at Utstein Kloster, Rennesoy near Stavanger. (some websites suggest Cecilie was the mother but this is not correct as seen in the attached churchbook showing birth and death as indicated above.

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

This situation is quite common in Norwegian genealogy. In farmer families you will find an abundance of examples of cousins carrying identical names - even siblings could be given identical names. Your example is, however, not from a farmer family, thus, the first names used in your example are not quite that common. The rules are still the same - you will find many closely related persons with identical names even in the upper classes of the society. Especially so in the Garman family - it surprises me that you haven't noticed the many Wenche's and the several connections through women with identical names in the Friman and Furien families.In your case, the white lady of Utstein was the daughter of Lars Widding.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Thank you, Lars, for your explanation and the answer to my question.I have also seen many cases where the first and last names were common to two different people, but had not found many cases where the middle name was the same as well. I was also unsure if it was the same person due to the comments of Per Nermo, until I found some more informationI have seen the many Wenches, as you say, but they do not seem to use middle names. Do you have a lot of information about these families? I am very interested in these families and have collected copies of portraits of quite a few. Do you have any books on the family or where did you find the connection between Cecile Cathrine and Lars Widding?Tybring

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

Well, I happeen to be co-author of the latest book about Utstein kloster, responsibel for the periode when the Garman family owned Utstein. I have also written an article about the Garman family in Genealogen - containing quite a few paintings that I'am quite certain you haven't seen elsewhere.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Lars, you have caught my attention with your post. I am very interested in what you have to say. I am descended from Christopher Garmann and his first wife Wenche von der Lippe, through their daughter Wenche who married Christian Lerche Dahl and his son Christopher Garmann Dahl who married Lorentze Charlotte Saabye. (I am also descended from the Cecilie Cathrine Widing who married Gabriel Heiberg).It had, at one time, been my thought that perhaps the Cecilie of whom there is a portrait at Utstein was the same as the one who married Heiberg as then I could add that portrait to my family tree. Having convinced myself that they were different people and trying to learn how they were related, I have now come across the possibility tat there are more portraits to add to my family tree. I am very excited! I would be very grateful if you would be willing to share any of your information and most especially copies of the portraits. Many of the copies that I have are of poor quality and I would be pleased to find better, although I do have good ones of Hermann Garmann and his wife, which I obtained from the Bergen Art Museum. Is the book or the article available online anywhere? I look forward to hearing from you and learning more. As you can see,I live very far from Norway and so research is difficult. As well, my Norwegian is 'ikke så gott' so I am always dependent upon, though appreciative of, the help of others. You may email me at murrhemp@telus.net. I thank you in advance for any help you may be able to provide.Tybring

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

The book is sold by Stiftelsen Utstein Kloster, the article from Genealogen is available from Norsk Slektshistorisk Forening.I have all my books and papers in storage for the time being, but the article in Genealogen was actually built around a private collection of family paintings - one branch of the Garman family who partly had inherited paintings from their own branch pluss had been able to obtain a number of paintings that been in the line that had had the succession to Utstein.I also have a copy of Lerche Dahl's handwritten autobiography. If time permits, I will write an article over this interesting biographical source in a few years time.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Thank you for the reply. Is it the book or article that contains the family portraits that you refer to? Des it contain all of the portraits or just some? I am interested in the Garmanns and Dahls, but you also mentioned the Frimann and Fuiren families. Are all of these portraits in one collection? Since your material is in storage, are you able to share contact information for the current owner of the portraits, or if not, would you be willing to forward my contact information and interest to him/her and ask for a reply?The autobiography that you refer to - is that by Christian Lerche Dahl? or just Lerche Dahl? Do you know if it is available anywhere. Thanks for your ongoing help.Tybring

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Some of the ancestors and descendants of Cecilie Cathrine Widing (1713-1780) are shown here : Lenke.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Is it possible that Cecilie divorced Gabriel Heiberg ?

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Hi Per. On the secondary records, your suggestion makes a great deal of sense, and especially so as I could never find a record of the birth of any other Cecilie Cathrina Widing (Though Lars has now said she is a daughter of a Lars Widding). In my first entry on this pot I gave a link to the death of Cecilie Garmann f. Widing in November, 1751 at Utstein. Here is a link to the death of Cecilie Heiberg f. Widing in December 1780 in Gloppen. I think this shows that they must be different people entirely, but with genealogy it is hard to ever be sure of anything![url="http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=11426&idx_id=11426&uid=ny&idx_side=-149>Lenke

[Gjest Per Nermo]

From your first entry (#1 above) I assumed that Christopher Garmann's 1st wife Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe (married 1750) was the mother of Wenche born 22 Okt 1751, and that it was Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe that died 17 Nov 1751. In my register I have 1754 as the year of marriage (in Nannestad) between Christopher and his 2nd wife Cecilie Cathrine Widing (who, I now gather, is a 'Larsdatter').I'n unable to read the church book entry for the death in Nov 1751 that you link to in #1. Could you please transscribe what's written there ?I guess you've already figured out by now who are the two different Cecilies. The elder (b) (born 1713, married to Heiberg) seems to me to be the younger half sister of the father of the younger (a) (born appr., 1730?, married to Garmann), the latter's father Lars (Johansen) Widing (married to Anne Margrethe Clausdatter Frimann) being a son in the marriage between Cecilie Christine/Cathrine Brøgger and Johan Jacobsen Widing, who later (in Bergen, 1712) married Karen Schwartzkopf, the mother of Cecilie born 1713.Thus, both CCWs got their name from the same person, who was a) the grand mother and b) the father's former wife, respectively.

[Gjest André Martinsen]

I do not know whether one has knowledge of Maren Elisabeth Garman, née Schanche, Christopher Garman's widow, who lived together with her children Wenche Rebecca von der Lippe Garman, Margarethe Agnethe Garman, Herman Christopher Garman, Maren Elisabeth Garman, and Christen Hejberg Garman at Alstahaug Farm in Nordland.Notice also that the eldest daughter is named after Wenche von der Lippe, and that the youngest son bears the name Hejberg.Lenke

[Gjest Per Nermo]

This Christopher Garmann (1747-1800) (#12) was a son of Johan Garmann, who was again the brother of Christopher Garmann in #1.His widow in 1801 was Jens Joensen Schancke (1717 Namdal -1787 Trondheim) and his 1st wife Margrethe Agnete Carstensdatter Schjødt (1717-1761).

[Gjest Per Nermo]

... what I meant to say was of course that Maren Elisabeth Schancke (1753-1817) (vicar Garmann's widow) was a DAUGHTER of Jens Joensen Schancke !

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

To try to answer Per's question in #11, my best transcription of the ntry at the bottom left of the page is'17 Novemb? sepul? fogder Garmanns ? Wencke von der Lippe'I believe that 'sepul? is a Latin word referring to burial, so I was careless in #1 above when I said she died on that date.It is interesting to see how the Norwegian naming tradition encouraged the names of deceased wives to be carried on by the children of subsequent wives, so that CCW the elder is named for her father's deceased previous wife as Per shows and then Andre shows that von der Lippe and Heiberg names were used by those who followed who did not even spring from those families.I wonder if anyone has any ideas on the wife of Joachim von der Lippe, the original Wenche von der Lippe? I have somewhere seen her listed with the same parents as her husband, which I assume must be a mistake. Does anyone know of the article or book Lars speaks of? I have not found it listed on NSF, although I may not know how best to look there?

[Gjest Eva Willenburg]

The book is called: Utstein Kloster - og Klosterøys historie. (Stiftelsen Utstein Kloster, 2005) Eldbjørg Haug, editor (www.utstein-kloster.no)

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Tybring, in #10 you write that ''In my first entry on this pot I gave a link to the death of Cecilie Garmann f. Widing in November, 1751 at Utstein''. What you meant here was obviously Christopher Garmann's 1st wife Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(15:) As you will see from (Lenke), I've 'guessed' that the father of Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe is Jean von der Lippe, the brother of Johan Henrik von der Lippe, who's daughter Wenche (!) was married to Johan Garmann (1717-1768), the brother of Christopher, married to Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe (1722-1751).Other possibilities would be, of course, that a) the same Wenche vdL was married to both brothers, or b) that there were two sisters Wenche vdL, both being daughters of Johan Henrik von der Lippe, born 1680.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Thanks for the name of the book Eva. Do you have this book? I am really hoping to find copies of the portraits that Lars mentioned in post #4.Yes, you are right, Per, in post #17 that I meant to say Wenche von der Lippe died in 1751, not CCW. I thought I had found a birth for Wenche von der Lippe, but now cannot find it. I will look again.

[Gjest Eva Willenburg]

Hope you had an enjoyable Canada Day!Yes, I do have the book. Very interesting book if one is interested in the history of the area and the old monastary. Some of the paintings Løberg mentioned, might have been from private collections.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(19:) The title of this discussion ought to be changed, then, as it gives 1751 as the yod for Cecilie Cathrine Widing, who seems to have died not long before 9 Feb 1779, when Christopher Garmann entered his 3rd marriage, allegedly causing CCW later to haunt the monastry at Utstein. The other CCW died in 1780 in Gloppen, where her husband had been a priest.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Yes, Per, how careless of me, and thank you for noting the mistake. I need to be careful about doing work too late at night. Is there some way to change the title?Here is the link to the birth of Wenche von der Lippe (daughter of Jan)in Bergen, Nykirken, 1722. It looks like her grandmother and namesake Wenche von der Lippe is still alive.[url="http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20070416610003.jpg>Lenke

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(22;) An e-mail from you to Ansvarleg redaktør: Yngve Nedrebø (digitalarkivet(a)arkivverket.no) would take care of the title change needed.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(22:) Tybring, would it be possible for you, again, to render a transcription of the church book entry for the babtization of Wenche von der Lippe (daughter of Jan) in Bergen, Nykirken, 1722 ? I guess this is the one who later became the 1st wife of Christopher Garmann (1721-1779) ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(15:) Please note that Christopher Garmann mentioned in #12 was a son of Johan Garmann and Wenche Henriksdatter von der Lippe (dead in 1800) which was probably a cousin of Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe (1722-1751).I can't see, immediately, the origin of the name 'Heiberg' among the children of Christopher Garmann and his wife Maren Elisabeth Schancke (#12).