[#83921] Roos in Harlingen, Friesland

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello,Can anyone please help me? One of my ancestors is a Karst Roeliffs Roos, his family later takes the name Ros, they are sailors and silversmiths and doctors, important family, he marries a Harlingen girl (Folcku gerryts) 7 July 1644 in Harlingen. He is from Norway. I don't know any norse, nor how to proceed. He prob had a brother or cousin Laes Roos, marries about same time in Harlingen.

[Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen]

The name Karst Roeliffs Roos doesn't sound Norwegian, but I suppose the spilling is infuenced by dutch ortography. Have you seen his name spelled in other ways? The name of his brother/cousin - Laes - could, however, be the Norwegian name Lars.

[Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen]

*spelling* (not spilling)

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello, Roeleff would be Rolf; In wedding cert. he is Karst Roos from Norway; baptism of kids has Karst (or Carst) Roeleffs (Roeliffs, Roels, Roelofs etc)but no Roos; name Rooslater used for weddings kid, but quickly becomes Ros and stays Ros. Maybe this message will appear twice, I first tried in Norwegian (inlegget??), now it switched to english... Thank you for reading this.

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

In fact, several marriages with Norwegians at that time in Harlingen, and all seem to have a Roeleff as father .. Roelef Roelefs from Bergen, marries Hiske jans (1635); Albert Roeliffs from Norway marries Grietke Hendriks (1636), Cornelys Roeloffs from Norway marries Janske Sybes.( 1638) But only Karst is a Roos.(later: 1644) There's also a Karst Pytters from Norway, marries Doed feddes (1631). Can these be Frisians living in Norway? But Roos (Ros) seems norwegian to me. The earliest is a lady: Mary Roelofs from Norway, in 1605 with Cornelis Carsten (Carst Cornelis ... they all seem somehow connected) Thank you for reading

[Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen]

Yes, they may be Frisians who have been living in Norway. Roos (Ros) doesn't sound Norwegian for a Norwegian :)There was a lot of contact between Friesland and the southern coast of Norway at that time. A list of ships from a little harbour near my hometown from the years 1601 and 1602 shows several captains from Harlingen and Hinlopen. Some of the names sound Norwegian (Knud Hannssønn, Jenns Nielssøn and others) and some Frisian (Valter Rubins, Jyke Maissønn, Aagge Dittas and others).A little island near this harbour is still called Friisøya (The island of the Frisians).

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Thank you for this interesting informatio; I like the idea of an island of the frisians! But i'm surprised about the name Ro(o)s, what about the following: (citation, Wikipedia):In the 14th and 15th centuries, Norway (like most other Scandinavian regions) was several times under disputes over throne and/or power, which caused sometimes high nobles of rival camps (especially of the losing camp) to emigrate from Norway. For example, the neighboring Sweden received several heirs of Norway's highest nobility, those having founded there such families later known as Roos (Hjelmsäter and Ervalla [5], Posse, and Counts of Bogesund. Through such heirs of Norwegian earlier leaders, most of Sweden's nobility maintains the Norwegian ancestry in the female line. Moreover, Ros is not a Frisian name! even the Scottish Ross comes from Norway!! (or so i was told)I think a Frisian Roeleff married a Norwegian girl ... they had several sons, but also a daughter. The daughter married a Ros from Norway, had a Roeleff, and Roeleff had a Karst ..

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello again,Please tell me, where can I find such lists of ships that you talk about? Karst Karsten, prob grandson or nephew of Karst Ro(o)s was a Captain in Harlingen. And how do I go about looking for Frisian ancestors in Norway?I gathered (Norwegian is a little bit like Frisian) that churchbooks have to be read as a whole, that there is no centralized alphabetical register? (There is in Friesland: Tresoar) Thank you

[Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen]

I don't think the Swedish/(Norwegian) nobility name Roos is relevant here.The list of ships I mentioned, belongs to an old customs/tax list from a so called county accountment. Some of these lists are scanned, but I am not quite sure that this one is.And as far as the churchbooks are conserned, you are right: There is no centralized alphabetical register. And very few Norwegian churchbooks are older than from about 1700.

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

So, where does the name Ros come from? Definitely not Frisian, moreover, few frisians had familynames; they use patronyms. That's why 'Roos' is mentioned at time of Marriage, but not for Baptisms, as in Friesland it's (before 1811) the Patronym that counts.So Roelofs becomes more important. I've still got this 'Roos' from Norway and don't know where to place him. Is Karst (or Carst) a Norwegian name? What is Norwegian for Nicolaus, Nikolaas, Klaas? (Laes?) At first I thought Ross, but Ross sends you back to Norway again..it's supposed to indicate red hair ...but when they become silversmiths (aren't there many silvermines in Norway?) they use the picture of a horse as their sign: Ros in Dutch or French is horse; not in Frisian.Might be a joke, difficult to have a red head as a silvermark.Btw, Where do I find these few scanned lists? Sorry to bother, but I find all this interesting ...

[Gjest Oddbjørn Johannessen]

You will find the scanned list I referred to in this protocol:[url="http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:db_read/rk/10198/1?size=full&mode=0>LenkeThe list I mentioned, starts here (right page, 'Mørnnes'):

[Gjest Svein Arnolf Bjørndal]

Karst and Carst might be the same name as Karsten, often spelled Casten in Norwegian sourses. The name is actually a Low German form of Kristian (Christian). So it's not really a Norwegian name, but is known in Norway from about 1600.

[Gjest hilde roos]

Roos is may husbands last name.I have not so mutch informaision about diss familie jet.His grandad Vilhelm Kristian Hagbartsen was born 7/8 1886 i Våler i Østfold. He was born on a farm Ros and later they tok the nanm Roos. Thats all i now but i have read that the name coms from Sweden,Germany and Finland.Mvh Hilde Roos.

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Thank you very much, everybody! i find all this very interesting; the archives are beautifull, but of course very hard to read ... well, I once managed Old English, no reason I won't be able to pick up bits and pieces here ... but tough at first sight. Thanks for reminding me of the name Niels! Hadn't thought of that. But no Niels in family, just 'Laes' or laas'. Yes, I gathered Karst(en) to be Christian, like Kirsten. Karst is used quite a lot in early times in Friesland, but disappears later; strangely enough not replaced by Christiaan ... simply stops being used. I've found Korst as well, and Corst. Carsten etc. Kas also. Thanks for your input, Hilde. I like this idea of people taking the name of a farm!It might even explain why my Karst arrived as Roos, but did not continue to use this name much ... became 'Roeliffs' instead.This idea is new to me, great to learn such things here. Janke Nicolette

[Gjest Carsten Friis Fischer]

Hello JankeOne of my oldest Norwegian ancestors is a Jan Rollefsen Greve (Grewe). He was born about 1620 in Bergen.His fathers name was Rollef Greve. Dead after 1657.There is a lot of books in Norway who told you about that family (but only in Norwegian I suppose)One of Rollef Greves sons Henrich was a schoutbynacht (Admiral ?). And after that son (Henrich) there are some letters written in Dutch.I will just give you a link here: http://www.soundtoll.eu/scans/index2.phpIt´s told you about the ships to Copenhagen from Holland.Mayby ? It´s begin 1557.Carsten Friis Fischer

[Gjest Arnstein Rønning]

Norwegian names Rolf (Rolv) and Lars (Lasse, Laurits).

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello Carsten, this is great! Including your name ... Karst Frisian Visser ? ( = fisherman from Friesland...) Guess Friis is something else... This Rollof Greves, can you find for me how many sons and daughters he had and their names? There's a whole bunch of Roeliffs coming into harlingen around 1630, 1640.. my direct ancestor is a Jan Ros, the name Jan as important as Karst (Carsten). Pyter also. And Maria or Mayke. There's a Hepke as well, Elbrich also.. The scans are interesting, but have to be read bit by bit. Schoutbynacht is indeed an important fonction! Karst Karsten Ros was a Captain. Jan Ros a 'Chirurgijn'. Most Norwegians (or Frisians living in Norway) mentioned in the archives are indeed from Bergen.

[Gjest Carsten Friis Fischer]

Hello JankeNo. I dont think 'Visser = fisherman from Friesland).But a fisherman I suppose there must have been there sometime. But we are sow talking about the island Zealand where Copenhagen is. But my middlename Friis I suppose comes from Friesland. Some part of the Friesland was under the kingdom of Denmark/Norway. Only 2 sons I know something about:1. Jan Rollefsen Greve (1620-1665/1673) Child: 1. Anne 1640`s 2. Rolf about 1650 3. Henrich about 1651 4. Marchie 5. Jan 6. Arent2. Henrich Rollefsen Greve (I did not know anything about him. But the books can tell someone about him). I have only copys when we are talking about his brother Jan.But I can see, that Rollef Greve also have a daughter called Margrethe.In a book I saw for many years ago 'Hansisch-Norwegische Handelspolitik im 16. Jahrhundert by Otto Röhlk 1935', the name of a Hans Rolluffssönn is there. We are talking about 1597-1598-1599.Yes. Thats the only things I can help you with.Carsten

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

1664-66 Våler in Østfold: a farm called Roos, top right side Lenke

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello Carsten,Actually, it was the other way around .... the Frisian Kingdom (much older than the Netherlands or Norway (as a governed unity, not as a region)was there before...(I'm talking before 500 A.D. it stretched from what is now Belgium, along the Dutch coast, unto what is now Denmark... the frisians were very good sailors from an early time onwards (they had to, they lived in a Delta that was often flooded.) I have a theory that they ferried the Anglo-Saxons to England when they settled in Britain; the Anglo-Saxons were no sailors. When king Alfred built a fleet (against the Norsemen...)most of his captains were called something 'the frisian'. Unfortunately great floods dispersed most frisians, many settled in Anglo -Saxon Britain, others in 'Ost' Friesland, a few stayed... The frisian language is closely related to English.It's not a dialect.The Hansean League came much later...but was very important for trade.Thank you for the names! Sorry for the history lesson, we're a proud people; Old Frisian is Older than (Old) Dutch, and a language on its own... like Old English.

[Gjest Janke Joubert]

Hello Berit,Thank you! This is really nice, the name Roos written ... as the name of a farm. I can see it comes from 1664-1666 archives, is there any more precise date? Difficult for me to find my way in Norwegian archives, but i'm learning.

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

No, I am sorry but I do not know the dates. It was just to show that the name Roos exists in Norway. The name of the users: Ole Halvorsen 37y. and Hans Bentzøn 43y. Today I belive the name of the farm is Ros.