fremfødselsmann

[skotskjente]

Help with translation please. I think it means guardian but may have some inherent right to inheritance?

The source in question is as follows:-

 

OLSTAD, Amund Gundersen:- ved skifte 2den oktober 1645 i enken Sigri's live tilfaldt:

Erland for egen del og som fremfødselsmann for sinne 2 'dumme søstre', 19 skind i

Olstad.....

 

thanks, moira

[Arild Kompelien]

Help with translation please. I think it means guardian but may have some inherent right to inheritance?

The source in question is as follows:-

 

OLSTAD, Amund Gundersen:- ved skifte 2den oktober 1645 i enken Sigri's live tilfaldt:

Erland for egen del og som fremfødselsmann for sinne 2 'dumme søstre', 19 skind i

Olstad.....

 

thanks, moira

 

The context could have been better, but I understand it as Amund Gundersen Olstad had been married to Sigrid, and Amund died before Sigrid.

The text then - at a division of inheritance 2 Oct 1645 after the widow Sigrid ,while she was still alive, Erlend for his own part and as a fremfødselsmann for his 2 mentally retarded sisters, inherited 19 skinn of Olstad farm.

 

Fremfødselsmann means that he was responsible to support his sistes with what they needed (housing, clothes, food). So the 19 skinn was the inheritance of Erlend and his two sisters, but because Erlend became their fremfødselsmann he also received the inheritance of the two sisters as a pay for their support.

[wold.thor@gmail.com]

 

The context could have been better, but I understand it as Amund Gundersen Olstad had been married to Sigrid, and Amund died before Sigrid.

The text then - at a division of inheritance 2 Oct 1645 after the widow Sigrid ,while she was still alive, Erlend for his own part and as a fremfødselsmann for his 2 mentally retarded sisters, inherited 19 skinn of Olstad farm.

 

Fremfødselsmann means that he was responsible to support his sistes with what they needed (housing, clothes, food). So the 19 skinn was the inheritance of Erlend and his two sisters, but because Erlend became their fremfødselsmann he also received the inheritance of the two sisters as a pay for their support.

 

Not mentally retarded, but deaf?

[Arild Kompelien]

Not mentally retarded, but deaf?

 

Dum could mean deaf, but in that case I think they had to rely on themself, not their brother.

[erling t endresen]

I would go for deaf. If they were mentally retarded, I would guess they were mentioned "idiotiske" eller heller "vanvittige", more normal terms at that time.

 

An old religious hymn goes like this: "Den dumme Aand tag bort fra mig", which is a prayer from a deaf person.

Endret Desember 21, 2013 av erling t endresen

[Arild Kompelien]

Dum seen isolated from any context, could mean deaf or rather dumb, enable of speaking. But "dum" seen in the context here, could dumb qualify for beeing put under guardianship and have their inheritance transported to their brother? I would say normally not, but may be because of 1645 and they both were women?

[erling t endresen]

I think that's how it is, Arild. The word I mentioned, "Vanvittig", means probably mentally ill. In 1801, however, I find the word "Tossed" / tosset, which was the normal term for mentally retarded. The diagnose word "Idiot" / "Idiotisk", came later, I think. In 1645, without any kind of education, many of the deaf people would maybe also be looked upon as a bit mentally retarded, since they could not communicate in the most adequate way? I don't know, just thaughts.

 

Examples from 1801-census:

 

From 1801, Sund:

Merknader: "tossed krøbling" (mentally retarded, I guess)

021 03 Peder Nielsen 38 Nyder almisse af sognet

 

From 1801, Vanylven:

Merknader: Døv og dum (deaf and dumb, I guess. Later the Norwegian word for dumb is spelled "stum")

012 03 Rasmus Andersen 9 Deres børn Ugift

[skotskjente]

Thanks for all the help on this question; it has been very informative and has got me thinking.....

 

Different areas in Norway used different words for different occurences which has had me guessing

before; e.g føderåd eller kår

 

This is relevant to my question because I always think of 'føde' to refer to 'birth' and forget the

usage referring to 'support'.

 

Thinking about geographical differences made me think that I should research further in the

'skifte protokol' records for Gausdal/Gudbrandsdal. I discovered that there were several

references to 'dumme' but also references to 'sinnsyk' which seems to indicate the 'dumme'

did not refer to mental illness.

 

I checked my Norwegian dictionary and came up with 'stupid' for 'dumme'; 'dumb' for 'stum';

and 'deaf-mute' for 'dumming'.

 

So I am translating the text as 'deaf-mute', but with a footnote.

 

Thanks for all the help, regards from moira-in-sunny-Florida where it is 30°C