Frideric Ludowic Tuchsen

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

8 hours ago, Per Nermo said:

It may seem that Gerd Möhlmann here does the same 'error',

 

Actually, I am starting to see problems with the primary sources being contradictory.

 

First, consider the 1631 funeral sermon for Margareta Plonies, which states that she was the wife of Mattheus Arnim and the mother of Catharina Arnim, who married the theologian Johann Cothmann (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/775770108/10). So far so good - this agrees with what Möhlmann said.

 

This same funeral sermon also states that Margareta Plonies's other surviving daughter Sophia married David Schutten (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/775770108/11). This is confirmed by the 1661 funeral sermon for Margaretha Schütze, daughter of David Schütze and Sophia Arnim, which states that her maternal grandparents (i.e., the parents of Sophia Arnim) were Matthæus Arnimb, burgher and merchant of Rostock, and his wife Margaretha Plönnies (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/774784229/9).

 

But then there is the 1650 funeral sermon for student Ernest Cothmann, the son of Johann Cothmann and Catharina Arnim. It states that Catharina's parents were Matthias Arnim, burgher of Rostock, and Anna Elers [!], and that Matthias was the son of an Elias Arnim, "Pastor Duppertinensis" (presumably Dobbertin, about 50 km south of Rostock) (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/777434768/8). Given that this funeral sermon gets the wrong wife for Matthias, can we trust what it says about Matthias's father?

 

In any case, I have not yet found any funeral sermon that would link any of the Arnims to the pastor of Eldena (died 1553/63). I suspect that, like you said, Möhlmann repeated the error made in the 1706 Analecta Güstroviensis (which Möhlmann cited repeatedly for other genealogical details concerning those who came from Güstrow, where the duke resided).

 

We have the two funeral sermons/memorials for the daughters of Elias Arnim (died 1603) stating that his father was the court preacher Cornelius Arnim. So far, I don't have any actual primary source evidence that Matthias Arnim was related to Elias - though the facts that both were burghers and merchants of Rostock, and that Elias's grandson contributed to the volume of memorial verses for Matthias's son-in-law, does strongly suggest that they were related.

Endret Mars 20, 2019 av Carl-Henry Geschwind

[Per Nermo]

20 timer siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

.....

This same funeral sermon also states that Margareta Plonies's other surviving daughter Sophia married David Schutten (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/775770108/11). This is confirmed by the 1661 funeral sermon for Margaretha Schütze, daughter of David Schütze and Sophia Arnim, which states that her maternal grandparents (i.e., the parents of Sophia Arnim) were Matthæus Arnimb, burgher and merchant of Rostock, and his wife Margaretha Plönnies (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/774784229/9).

 

But then there is the 1650 funeral sermon for student Ernest Cothmann, the son of Johann Cothmann and Catharina Arnim. It states that Catharina's parents were Matthias Arnim, burgher of Rostock, and Anna Elers [!], and that Matthias was the son of an Elias Arnim, "Pastor Duppertinensis" (presumably Dobbertin, about 50 km south of Rostock) (http://www.digitale-bibliothek-mv.de/viewer/image/777434768/8). Given that this funeral sermon gets the wrong wife for Matthias, can we trust what it says about Matthias's father?

.....

.

I guess it would be perfectly possible that Mattheus Arnim (appr.1570?-aft.1611) in Rostock had

his daughter Catharine Arnim  (1608-1638) in a 1st marriage with Anna Elers (Ehlers ?) and

his daughter      Sophia Arnim  (1611-1665) in a 2nd marriage with Margaretha Plönnies (Plönnig ?).

.

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

28 minutes ago, Per Nermo said:

I guess it would be perfectly possible that Mattheus Arnim (appr.1570?-aft.1611) in Rostock had

his daughter Catharine Arnim  (1608-1638) in a 1st marriage with Anna Elers (Ehlers ?) and

his daughter      Sophia Arnim  (1611-1665) in a 2nd marriage with Margaretha Plönnies (Plönnig ?).

 

The contradiction here is that Margaretha Plönnies/Plonies's 1631 funeral sermon stated that both Catharine Arnim (wife of Johann Cothmann) and Sophia Arnim (wife of David Schutten/Schütze) were her daughters (as wife of Mattheus Arnim), which would rule out your suggestion. Margaretha Plonies's funeral sermon also stated that she married Mattheus in 1601, so that leaves no time for an earlier wife to have been Catharine's mother.

 

So the 1650 funeral sermon that named Catharina Arnim as the daughter of Anna Elers is in flat contradiction to the 1631 funeral sermon - it seems to me that one of them must have gotten its facts wrong.

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

On 3/19/2019 at 4:01 PM, Per Nermo said:

Elias Arnim (c1565?-1603), married to Margareta Schröder

 

I have now received more information on Elias Arnim and on Margareta Schröder's father Otto Schröder from the Archive of the Hansestadt Rostock (AHR).

 

Elias Arnim was made a burgher of Rostock on 15 August 1590 (AHR 1.1.3.1 Nr. 267, fol. 40v). He was already married to Margareta Schröder on 7 July 1592, as on this date he acquired a property from Agneta Bolte, who called him her "daughter's husband" (AHR 1.1.22 Nr 113). He was still alive in June 1603, when he appeared in a court record as a guardian (AHR 1.1.22 Nr 108), and thus must have died later in 1603 (as recorded in Vicke Schorler's Rostocker Chronik).

 

Otto Schröder was called "Otto Schröder Havelbergensis" in 1587 and thus was from Havelberg in Brandenburg, about 140 km south of Rostock. He was entered into a burgher's book (borgerbok) of those not native to Rostock, which was begun in June 1567 (AHR 1.1.3.1 Nr. 264, fol. 2r), but he almost certainly already had been a burgher when, at the end of 1566, he bought the two houses of the late Lucas Bolte from the guardians of Agneta Bolte and the guardians of a Hans Wendt (AHR 1.1.3.1 Nr. 53, fol. 58r). This also suggests that he may have become married to Agneta around this time (Möhlmann stated that they married 1567; this appears to be based on the data just recited). Agneta in turn was the daughter of Lucas Bolte, who was already dead by 1552 (AHR 1.1.22 Nr 113). Otto Schröder was a brewmaster. On 24 February 1585 he was elected to the Rostock city council. He was still alive at the meeting of city council on 24 February 1587, but the city council book of elections then states that he died later in 1587 (AHR 1.1.3.1 Nr. 287).

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

Slettet

 

Endret Mars 21, 2019 av Carl-Henry Geschwind

[Per Nermo]

På ‎19‎.‎03‎.‎2019 den 14.00, Per Nermo skrev:

 

(Ref. Innlegg #1, 2 og 3 ovenfor).

Har man kunnet konkludere mht. hvor de hører hjemme i (de to) Tuchsen-slektene, nedenstående to personer, mao. hvem som antas å være deres foreldre ?
 

   -  Fendric   Johan Ludovic Tuchsen,                       fd. i Korskirken  1714  for Rebecca,  d. av Hans Jørgen Sinchler og Anna Hansd.   (kaptein  JLT  fd. i KK 1724)

   -                 Frideric Ludowic Tuchsen,  kaptein,    fd. i Korskirken  1723  for Abigail,     d. av Andreas Stub og Anna Maria Ottesdatter 

 

.

Noen som har informasjon om ovenstående to Tuchsen, som er trådens opprinnelige tema ?

.

[Arnulf Strømsnes]

Adelsbrev til Johannes Ludovicus de Tuchsen (Johanni Ludovico de Tuchsen / Johan Ludwig Tuchsen)
Fredriksborg, 6. oktober 1731:
https://books.google.es/books?id=kQk_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PR177&dq=Johann+Ludovic+Tuchsen&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGwv7KspbhAhVPQhUIHeF1AycQ6AEINDAB#v=onepage&q=Tuchsen&f=false
 

Det er skrevet på latin og jeg greier ikke å oversette alt.

Hans far, Johan Friedrich (Tuchs) Tuchsen, fant jeg for ca. 20 år siden i kirkebøkene  i Kolberg (Kolobrzeg, Polen). Der ble han døpt, han er også oppført som fadder i Kolberg etter at han ble kommandant på Bergenhus festning.
Det kan derfor ikke utlukkes at Frideric Ludowic Tuchsen,  fadder Korskirken 1723, kan være en slektning fra Polen/Tyskland/Danmark på besøk i Bergen.
En annen mulig forklaring kan være at Frideric er feilskrift for Johann(es).
 

 

[Arnulf Strømsnes]

Carl-Henry, Thank you for still looking for new information. Here is something that supports your findings

Quelle: Beiträge zur Geschichte der Stadt Rostock. Vol 1-2. 

Seite 38
…. von 1588 die Herren ………………………..Otto Schröder, Vartelt Smidt und Zacharias Venele, sowie der Rathssctretär Bcrnhardus Scharffenbergk. Von den Rathsherren muß Herr Otto Schröder noch in demselben Jahre gestorben sein ^), denn in dem Verzeichnis; von 1589, das sonst genau dieselben Namen enthält, kommt er nicht mer vor, und in der obigen ...

https://books.google.no/books?id=PTvVAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Otto+Schr%C3%B6der+noch+in+demselben+Jahre+%22&dq=%22Otto+Schr%C3%B6der+noch+in+demselben+Jahre+%22&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia9JGCoujhAhUOpIsKHZyLCacQ6AEILzAB

Seite 10:
Agnete, oo 1567Otto Schroeder, Ratmann in Rostock, dessen Wwe sie 1592 ist.

https://books.google.no/books?id=ioxmAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Otto+Schroeder,+Ratmann%22&dq=%22Otto+Schroeder,+Ratmann%22&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGkquAnujhAhXqlosKHa9NBOoQ6AEIKTAA

 

Verwandtschaft?
Seite 63:
Lucas Schroeder, * 2.8.1649, Pastor in Güstrow, Superintendent in Stralsund 1701, 00 Catharine Meyer, T. d. Dr. Med Sebastian Meyer in Güstrov.

https://books.google.no/books?hl=no&id=ioxmAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Otto+Schroeder%2C+Ratmann%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Lucas+Schroeder%22

 

Seite 152:
Anna, ervähnt 1595 oo 1) Zacharias Schroeder (+ Januar 1580), Undersekretär der Stadt – oo 2) 1582 Hans Krüger, ervähnt 1600.
https://books.google.no/books?hl=no&id=ioxmAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Otto+Schroeder%2C+Ratmann%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Zacharias+Schroeder%22

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

On 4/24/2019 at 4:37 AM, Arnulf Strømsnes said:

Quelle: Beiträge zur Geschichte der Stadt Rostock. Vol 1-2. 

Seite 38
…. von 1588 die Herren ………………………..Otto Schröder, Vartelt Smidt und Zacharias Venele, sowie der Rathssctretär Bcrnhardus Scharffenbergk. Von den Rathsherren muß Herr Otto Schröder noch in demselben Jahre gestorben sein ^), denn in dem Verzeichnis; von 1589, das sonst genau dieselben Namen enthält, kommt er nicht mer vor, und in der obigen ...

 

Hi Arnulf:

 

Thank you for this source - this confirms that he did not die in 1587, but was still alive in 1588 and possibly in early 1589.

 

Otto Schröder was a brewer, and thus he was subject to a beer tax (similar to the sagskatt to which sagmester were subjected in Norway at around this time). The surviving beer tax lists have been put online at familysearch.org (free account and login necessary to view), and I have located Otto Schröder still in the tax list for 1591. This is our Otto Schröder, because he is called "H. Otto Schroder"; the "H." identifies him as a city councilor ("Ratsherr"), which his son (Otto Schroder Jr.) was not. See https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS5H-T41L?i=1207&cat=572753. In 1592 finally it is his widow ("H. Otto Schrodersche"; the "sche" at the end indicates "widow of") who pays the beer tax. See https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS5H-T8SK?i=1471&cat=572753.

 

 

On 4/24/2019 at 4:37 AM, Arnulf Strømsnes said:

Verwandtschaft?
Seite 63:
Lucas Schroeder, * 2.8.1649, Pastor in Güstrow, Superintendent in Stralsund 1701, 00 Catharine Meyer, T. d. Dr. Med Sebastian Meyer in Güstrov.

https://books.google.no/books?hl=no&id=ioxmAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Otto+Schroeder%2C+Ratmann%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Lucas+Schroeder%22

 

Seite 152:
Anna, ervähnt 1595 oo 1) Zacharias Schroeder (+ Januar 1580), Undersekretär der Stadt – oo 2) 1582 Hans Krüger, ervähnt 1600.
https://books.google.no/books?hl=no&id=ioxmAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Otto+Schroeder%2C+Ratmann%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Zacharias+Schroeder%22

 

Also available at familysearch.org are some very extensive genealogical notes prepared in Rostock in the late 19th and early 20th century. These are in old German handwriting, and use a number of idiosyncratic abbreviations, so they are somewhat difficult to use, but still invaluable. Among these notes are family trees for a number of Schröder families at this time. The family tree for Otto Schröder, his two children (Margarete, who married Elias Arnim, and Otto Jr.), and the three children of his son is here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-C3C7-397Q-N?i=807&cat=577331 (bottom family tree on the page). Lucas and Zacharias Schröder belonged to a different Schröder family, whose family tree is here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-Z3C7-39Q4-M?i=808&cat=577331.

 

On 4/24/2019 at 4:37 AM, Arnulf Strømsnes said:

Agnete, oo 1567Otto Schroeder, Ratmann in Rostock, dessen Wwe sie 1592 ist.

 

The document from 1592 in which she is named as his widow can be seen here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS5H-1QHL-C?i=545&cat=577395. This is from a pantebok for garden plots outside the city walls. The first line of the bottom entry (dated 7 July Anno [15]92) reads: "Agneta Bolten weilands Herrn Otto Schroder nagelassen", which translates as "Agneta Bolten, widow of the late city councilor Otto Schroder". In the next line you can see "Elias Arnim ihren dochter man", which translates as "Elias Arnim, her daughter's man".

 

Incidentally, according to court testimony from 1631 (abstracted at the bottom of this page: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-C3C7-39MB-C?i=778&cat=577331) Agnete died in Advent 1618 (that is, during the four weeks before Christmas of that year).

 

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

On 3/24/2019 at 6:19 AM, Arnulf Strømsnes said:

Hans far, Johan Friedrich (Tuchs) Tuchsen, fant jeg for ca. 20 år siden i kirkebøkene  i Kolberg (Kolobrzeg, Polen). Der ble han døpt, han er også oppført som fadder i Kolberg etter at han ble kommandant på Bergenhus festning.
Det kan derfor ikke utlukkes at Frideric Ludowic Tuchsen,  fadder Korskirken 1723, kan være en slektning fra Polen/Tyskland/Danmark på besøk i Bergen.
En annen mulig forklaring kan være at Frideric er feilskrift for Johann(es).

 

Incidentally, familysearch.org is putting all of its microfilms online by the end of 2020. So within the next two years we should be able to revisit the church books for Kolberg to look for more Tuchsens.

[Leif Salicath]

Jeg kommer inn litt sent her, men er interessert i navnet Tuchsen/Tuxen. Jeg jobbet med den familien for nesten 15 år siden og kildene er dessverre delvis mistet, men jeg prøver allikevel.

 

Johan Ludvig Tuchsen f. 1695 i Bergen var "major i Preussen" og iflg. Blix-Dahle Slektsdatabase - som også har ligget i mange år senere på DIS skal han ha blitt begr. 7.feb.1749 i Korskirken, gift 18.jan.1719 i Domkirken med Barbara Schnell som begr. 28.jan.1754. Hans skal også være nevnt i Sollieds skifteavskrifter. En datter Anna Dorothea døpt 22.mai.1732 i Korskirken, dette iflg. Døypte i Bergen 1668-1815 (Blix-Dahle - DIS NO).

 

Når jeg leter på Digitalarkivet nå finner jeg ikke noe av dette.

 

Gamle gode dis-transkripsjoner finnes fortsatt:

Barbara Schnell, Johan Ludvig Tuchsens hustru død http://da3.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=32&filnamn=bedo1668&gardpostnr=22389&merk=22389#ovre

 

Det står skrevet at far til Anne Dorothea er Johan Frideric, men det er feil da moren jo er Barbara Schnell http://da3.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=52&filnamn=dp12011686&gardpostnr=6217&personpostnr=50098&merk=50098#ovre

 

Jeg kan føye til at major i Preussen, Johan Ludvig Tuchsen skal være død i Kolberghuus, Kolberg, Pommern, Tyskland, men begravet i Korskirken, Bergen.

 

Generalmajoren hadde 6 barn:

Dorothea Sophie 1695-1759 gift med generalintendant Michael Sundt

Johan Ludvig

Elisabeth Marie 1696-1722 gift med oberst Gerhard Christopherssøn Munthe

Anna Sophia Amalia 1699-1775 gift med general og kommandant på Bergenhus, Hans Jørgen Weinmann

Fredrik Wilhelm, major 1703-1747 gift med Karen Cathrine Daae

Charlotte Mria 1706-1773 (ugift)

 

Endret Mai 7, 2019 av Leif Salicath

[Arnulf Strømsnes]

Fint at du er interessert i Tuchsen. Muligheten for å finne mer øker når vi er flere som leter. Men jeg ser at du har forvekslet opplysninger om Johan Fredrich Tuchsen og Johan Ludwig Tuchsen. Se på nettsidene mine så finner du opplysninger om disse personene og flere Tuchsen.  Hvis du søker om passord så vil du se flere kilder og opplysninger på nettsidene mine.

https://stromsnes.info/tng/index.php

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

1 hour ago, Leif Salicath said:

gift 18.jan.1719 i Domkirken med Barbara Schnell som begr. 28.jan.1754. Hans skal også være nevnt i Sollieds skifteavskrifter

 

Barbara Schnell (Barbro Snell) i Sollieds skifteavskrifter: http://da2.uib.no/cgi-win/WebBok.exe?slag=lesside&bokid=solliedskift&sideid=566&storleik=

Er enke efter Johan Friderich (kjøpmand i Bergen), ikke Johan Ludwig Tuchsen.

Endret Mai 7, 2019 av Carl-Henry Geschwind

[Leif Salicath]

Takk for korrigering. Jeg har jobbet mest med Elisabeth Marie Tuchsen gift Munthe , dvs. hans familie.

[Per Nermo]

På ‎07‎.‎05‎.‎2019 den 17.10, Leif Salicath skrev:

.....

Johan Ludvig Tuchsen f. 1695 i Bergen var "major i Preussen" og iflg. Blix-Dahle Slektsdatabase - som også har ligget i mange år senere på DIS skal han ha blitt begr. 7. feb. 1749 i Korskirken, gift 18. jan. 1719 i Domkirken med Barbara Schnell som begr. 28. jan. 1754. Hans skal også være nevnt i Sollieds skifteavskrifter.

En datter Anna Dorothea døpt 22.mai.1732 i Korskirken, dette iflg. Døypte i Bergen 1668-1815 (Blix-Dahle - DIS NO).

.....

.

Som nevnt over blandes det her sammen to ulike Johan Tuchsen :

1. offiser  Johan Ludvig Tuchsen (1695 Bergen - etter 1741 Tyskland ? (Pommern ?)), g. 15 Jul 1728 i Kolberg, Pommern m. Dorothea Elisabeth Mauersberger
2. skipper Johan Fredrik Tuchsen (c1690 Lübeck-1749), g. 18 Jan 1719 i DK, Bergen, m. Barbara Hansd. Schnell (1695-1754), 9 b. (døpt KK 1718-33), bl.a. A. Dor. 1732.
    

      1.  er sønn av Johan Frederik Tuchsen (1660-1730), generalmajor / garnisonskommandant på Bergenhus 1712-1730, og Maria Olsdatter Meng fra Fredrikshald.

      2.  kjenner jeg ikke foreldrene til. han tok borgerskap i Bergen 23 Mai 1730. Han var altså skipper (styrmand), senere kjøpmann i Bergen. Skifte 15 Feb 1754.

 

Som det framkommer i tidligere innlegg finnes det ytterligere (minst) en Tuchsen hvis foreldre såvidt jeg vet ikke er fastslått :

      3.  kaptein  Fredrik Ludvig Tuchsen (c1695-): 'Frideric Ludowic Tuchsen' var fadder i Korskirken, Bergen i 1723  for Abigail, d. av Andreas Stub og Anna Maria Ottesd.

.

Endret Mai 8, 2019 av Per Nermo
NB: Byttet om på 1. og 2. mhp. angivelse av foreldre, dessuten lagt til nr. 3 Friderich Ludowic Tuchsen.

[Per Nermo]

På ‎07‎.‎05‎.‎2019 den 17.10, Leif Salicath skrev:

.....

Generalmajoren hadde 6 barn:

• Dorothea Sophie 1695-1759 gift med generalintendant Michael Sundt
• Johan Ludvig
• Elisabeth Marie 1696-1722 gift med oberst Gerhard Christopherssøn Munthe
• Anna Sophia Amalia 1699-1775 gift med general og kommandant på Bergenhus, Hans Jørgen Weinmann
• Fredrik Wilhelm, major 1703-1747 gift med Karen Cathrine Daae
• Charlotte Mria 1706-1773 (ugift)

.

Generalmajoren (over) er altså Johan Frederik Tuchsen (1660-1730).

Sønnen Fredrik Wilhelm (1703-1747), major, var først gift med Marthe Hansdatter Rue (1708-1736) fra Christiania (d. av fogd i Sunn- og Nordfjord, Hans Nielsen Rue).

Med Marthe fikk FW 3 barn: Johan Fredrik 1732, Karen Maria 1732, Martha.

.

Endret Mai 8, 2019 av Per Nermo