Looking for my great grandmother

[Arnstein Rønning]

Good - Inger Karin!  

 

If she used to "tell stories", there was an Ella Hansen living in Stamsund (Lofoten) leaving for America Aug 7 1903 N.Y. telling she was 22 years old (born 1881).

http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/gen/vis/8/pe00000000535098

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Interesting... http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037570001210

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Interesting... http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037570001210

This is probably Greta Mathilde Berger f. 12 mai 1879, sister of johan Henrik Berger f. 1848.

 

http://www.disnorge.no/fi/nettutstilling/p1.htm#i48

[Hilary Underwood]

Jon Erik- Thank you for that link. It makes looking at some of these records easier!

 

Inger Karin- Thank you! This is certainly very interesting. It is hard to say. She said she was 16. She also said she came in 1900. However her date of birth was somewhat consistent on most forms at least after she married my great grandfather. 

 

I was told that her destination on arrival in the US was Minnesota. I do not know if she was meeting with relatives or or traveled with a relative. There was no story about that. As I said she told stories and so did her daughter-my grandmother. 

 

Yes my mother only did the HRV1 test. I am thinking about getting an upgrade. Maybe that would help? 

 

Arnstein- As always, thank you! I am looking at all the links you have shared.

 

 

 

 

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

About mtDNA...

 

(Just for possible later use ...)

If Johanne Sophia Leionarm is a possible mothers mother to Ella. I have tried to find relatives with her mtDNA. Her oldest daughter in second marriage was Eva Marie b. 1855. Eva Marie had a daughter Aagot Mathilde Hansen b. 1882 in Vardø. Aagot Mathilde had a daughter Aase Marie Vinnan b. 1911 Vardø. I think she was married Pettersen. It is probably Aagot Mathilde and Aase Marie buried in Haslum: 116 00 098B Haslum Bærum

If Aase Marie has living children, they have same mtDNA as Johanne Sophia Leionarm.

 

http://www.disnorge.no/gravminner

 

http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=107695

Endret Februar 1, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Hilary Underwood]

Inger Karin you are very good at this!

Okay, let me see if I have all correct and please let me know if I am not-

 

Johanne Sophia Leionarm was possible born out of wedlock in. On marriage her father's last name is Leionarm but changed to Lieutenant Clementsjot. She was possibly born out of wedlock. 

 

Johanne married Nicolai Henrik Berger from Rendsburg, Germany in Hammerfest 1847. He had a previous child born out of wedlock in 1847.

 

Johanne gave birth to Mathilde Johanna Berg in 1851

 

Nicolai Henrik died in 1853

 

Johanne married for a second time and Mathilde is listed as stepdatter in 1865 Vardo census. Listed with her brother Johan Henrik Berger

 

Mathilde also had a possible brother named Christian? who was probably part of the Pomar trade.

 

Johanne had several other children including Eva Marie Knudsen b. 1855 who had her daughter Aagot Mathilde Hansen in 1882.

 

Mathilde/Matilde immigrated to Russia or was it Johanne Sofia and her second husband? But Mathilde looks to have immigrated back to Norway? 

 

Johan Henrik Berger and sister Greta Mathide are of the same family or different?

 

I think I might be confused somewhere? 

 

 

 

 

[Arnstein Rønning]

I have now had access to the DNA matching list. The one in question (Ella) is for sure of Norwegian ancestry. She (her descandant) has really a lot of Norwegian matches. Some of the matches have Forest Finn ancestry (pretty many), like Mullikka, Siekkinen, Porkka, Tossavainen, Kousmainen, Valkoinen, Karttuinen, Hakkarinen and others. One of the few "real" Finnish matches is one with all his ancestry (it seems) in Pudasjärvi. It's rather close to Haparanda. But you have to go far back in history to find a connection to this match. He is a 5th - Remote Cousin, probably really remote - Finnish DNA has Sisu (small gene-pool). One of this match's familyname is Säkkinen. I'm wondering if this could be the "Forest Finn-name" Siekkinen?

 

There are also many Swedish matches.

 

About Johanne Sopia Lejonarm. It seems her real name was Lejonarm. If she was born out of wedlock, she would have had her mother's name (probably Lejonarm). But when she married, the priest would ask for her father's name, and then she said that this was Lieutenant Clementeoff.

 

The father of Ella is said to be Hans Jørgensen (or Jourgenson) - once said to have been a British sailor. This is probably a Norwegian, I think. May be it's easier to try to find him? He should have had Ella with Hilda (Mathilda or Kristine) Burke or Berg (Berger?) - the mother of Ella.

Endret Februar 1, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

http://gw.geneanet.org/brynjulf?lang=no&pz=else&nz=sevaldsen&ocz=0&p=Johanna&n=Lejonarm&oc=0

 

Johanna Sophia is here listed as daughter of Eva Brita Moisdatter Lejonarm and lieutenant Clementeof. I don't know his source...

 

Mathilde also had a possible brother named Christian? who was probably part of the Pomar trade.

Yes, that is right, he died 1911 at sea (fishing).

 

Johanne had several other children including Eva Marie Knudsen b. 1855 who had her daughter Aagot Mathilde Hansen in 1882.

 

Yes, that is right.

 

Mathilde/Matilde immigrated to Russia or was it Johanne Sofia and her second husband? But Mathilde looks to have immigrated back to Norway?

Well, I have seen on the same pages that Mathilde is listed as emigrated to Russia, but I actually don't know if that is right. Anyway - she is not mentioned after arriving Russia. I have not seen her in any sources after 1865 census. Mathilde's older sister Sophia is (same page) listed as emigrated, but if she emigrated, she was back after a couple of years. She got married and lived in Vadsø. Sophia lived in Vardø 1910 with grandson Sigurd and a Hilda Knudsen b. 1896 in Russia...

 

1910: http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01036972000282

1900: http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/ft/person/pf01037570002415

 

Eva lived in Vardø too. Aagot and her daughter Aase are born in Vadsø, but as it looks like they are buried in Haslum, they might have moved to Bærum (near Oslo).

 

 

Johan Henrik Berger and sister Greta Mathide are of the same family or different?

I found out that Greta Mathilde is his daughter. She lived most of her life in Russia, but was in Norway (Vardø) 1900 census.

 

Of course, Hilary - we don't know if this is your family...

[Hilary Underwood]

Inger Karin- Thanks for that. I know there is a goof possibility this is not my family but it is very interesting to read about.

 

I am doing searches now for Hans Jorgensen. I do worry that maybe it wasn't his real name. But who knows. There's a saying here that goes something like, "For every lie, there is a grain of truth." Maybe there is a little grain in some of these stories passed down to me?

[Hilary Underwood]

If anyone is still reading this thread- Does anyone know much about the Aland Islands?

 

I just came across a 14 year old girl on a passenger list in 1900 listed as M. Hansen. She was travelling with a 40 year old woman just listed Hansen. The residence for the girl is Nestvid. Denmark? For the woman it was Aland Islands. I found it a bit curious. They are travelling from Liverpool to Quebec with a destination of Idaho state. I found it curious. 

 

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hi - you can read about Åland here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85land_Islands

 

Hansen is a very common name in Norway and Denmark - the son of Hans (very few of those using that name are related). In Sweden (and Finland) they would use Hansson, b.t.w. 

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hilary - your mother's second closest DNA-match is a Norwegian. FTDNA says he is a 2nd-4th cousin. He (the match) says his ancestry is in the area from Trondheim up to Alstahaug in Nordland. Then you are not very far from Lofoten.

 

Then you have another 2nd-4th Cousin with no ancestry given, but her surname is Berg.

 

You also have rather close match with another with Norwegian ancestry (2nd-4th cousin). She has ancestry from all over Norway, from Hedmark to Balsfjord (Troms).

 

Then you have another 2nd-4th with ancestry from Nordland (Mo i Rana and Hemnes)

 

And you have another 2nd-4th with the surname Karlsson (Swede) with all ancestry in Värmland (a lot av Forest Finns there).

 

...and so on (the next is 3rd-5th cousin)...

 

I have access only to the names, so I can't see whos is in common with who, but you can look for yourself by clicking at the crossing arrows close to the matches' names. After having done that, you can use the chromosome browser to see if any of those "in common with" share any common blocks of DNA.

[Arnstein Rønning]

...then a Swede Margareta ... (keeping the matches anonymous) she is 3rd-5th cousin and has a very large familytree - all of it is Swedish. No Forest Finn or Finnish names mentioned, but several of them mentioned as "Västernorrland" (Northern Sweden).

 

Then a Norwegian with no ancestry mentioned (3rd-5th)

 

Then probably a Swede with the name Anderson (3rd-5th)

 

There are many matches with English names in between those I mention, but probably from other ancestors.

 

A Norwegian with one farms name and some names ending with -sen (3rd-5th)

 

One with Norwegian ancestry, Berge and other Norwegian names among the ancestors (3rd-5th)

 

A 3rd-5th cousin with 3 ancestral surnames, two of them from Sweden (Sjolund and Johnson).

 

A Norwegian with a lot of well known Forest Finn names among the ancestors (3rd-5th cousin)

 

I have to stop there...

[Leif Johannessen]

Digitalarkivet has some bases with emigrant records. There is a woman registered in Trondheim in 1904. Her name is Elen Jørgens(en), born in 1880: http://gda.arkivverket.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&sidenr=1&filnamn=EMITROND&gardpostnr=117239&merk=117239#ovre

 

She seems to have a son Johan, born in 1901. ”Melø” is noticed as residence. But I can’t see her born or baptized there. I think she is from Breivik in Hemnes with parents Jørgen Brose Jakobsen and Elen Johanne Johansdatter: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=2562&idx_id=2562&uid=ny&idx_side=-27

 

And here in the farm history: https://caolsson.wiki.zoho.com/052-Breivik.html?pid=162645000000024007

 

Here it is mentioned that she married a cousin, John Larson, in the USA.

 

The register may indicate that this Elen travelled together with a girl named Kirsten Marie Pedersen, born 1886. This girl was likely from Meløy and I can see that she had relatives in Minnesota.

 

May be someone has more information about this Elen from Hemnes?

[Arnstein Rønning]

Very good Leif! She probably has some ancestry from Nordland area, and this is intresting.

 

I will take some more of the matches:

 

A 3rd-5th cousin Fredrickson (probably American) with Scandinavian ancestry/names Halverson, Johansen and Holck (I have also Holck among my ancestors from Trøndelag)

 

Here comes a 5th-Remote cousin (probably American) with ancestry in Norway and Sweden/Finland (just what I want)!

Norwegian ancestors: Tollevsdatter, Aanonsdatter and some -sen names, Landro (Landrø?), Leem

Sweden/Finland: Rovanpää, Kerttu, Tikkainen, Mäki, Lampinen (Pudas), Simu, Heikkilä.

 

Norwegian Engebretsen 4th-Remote (no ancestry)

 

A probably American with Norwegian and Swedish ancestry (4th-Remote)

 

A Norwegian with a lot of ancestry - all in Norway (and a lot in Northern-Norway - if I remember right). He is or was activ on some genealogy foras.

 

Swedish name  5th-Remote cousin a lot of Swedish names (-son and -dotter) and Finnish names too, like Antinpoika, Tarvainen, Tenhunen, 

 

A Norwegian 4th-Remote with ancestors like Fredagsvik (Trøndelag) and Engebakken (Hedmark?) and from Åsnes (Hedmark I think). The problem is that I cannot look behind the names to see where they come from (but the test owner can do that).

 

Another Norwegian genealog. She has not said anything about ancestors, but I think she has ancestry from Hedmark (if I remember right).

 

One proably American with ancestry from Sweden (among others) like Dahlberg and Juvelin 4th-Remote cousin.

 

A lot more matches, but I stop here now.

[Hilary Underwood]

Leif- Thank you very much.This is interesting. I was wondering about different names. Actually, I'm finding it overwhelming with all the possible names my great grandmother used and mentioned.

 

Arnstein- I have seen all the matches. There are 3 in question that look to be third cousins to my mother including the Norwegian person we have in common. However the two others seem to be connected but give no mtdna to be viewed. They look to be all connected. With one giving a lot of Norwegian surnames but they seem to either be on the male line or just names that they think the ancestors might have used. The other gives no names, no history. Do you think it would help to message me the names of the individuals you are thinking of? Perhaps narrow it down? 

 

I have no doubt that my great grandmother has a strong Norwegian ancestry but even with DNA matching it seems there is a lot of missing information. It almost seems more confusing. However, I am on finding on the matchlist a lot of the same names however for example- Hansen, Hanssen, Berge, Berg, Borgen, Torresdatter, Torresen, Tollefsen, 

 

Here's something I am curious about- Perhaps Ella was born out of wedlock. She would have been given her mother's surname, correct? If her mother was alive (our family story says her mother (Hilda/Carrie/Mathilde/Kristine/Christine) died 9 days after Ella was born) and married that might account for the different surnames, correct? Or maybe not. 

[Arnstein Rønning]

In Norway in 1886, she would be called Hansdatter (daughter of Hans or Hansen), even if she was born out of wedlock. In Finland she would have had her mother's name (and no mentioning of her father in the churchbooks). There were a lot of people born out of wedlock at that time in Norway, so she could very well be that. If her mother died early, she would most likely be placed on a farm as a fosterchild (or what it's called in English).

 

Hansen is one of the most common names in Norway, and very difficult to "use" as a clue in Norwegian genealogy. Berg is also a very common name in Norway, meaning "small mountain". Let's say Hans had a son Ole. He would be Ole Hansen. Then Ole had a son Jon, he would be called Jon Olsen.

[Arnstein Rønning]

Another of the Norwegian matches has also ancestry in Hemnes (Nordland). He has only noted the end of paternal and maternal line, and the paternal ends in Kongsdalen in Hemnes. May be one should have a look into the churchbooks of Hemnes...

Endret Februar 4, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Arnstein Rønning]

Hitting a brickwall. But what do we have now:

 

Looking for Ella Mathilda Hansen or Jourgenson (Jørgensen?) born 10/7 1886 (probably?).

 

She said she was from Lofoten and also from Lapland. She also told that her mother died very early and that she was brought up by her father's parents (in England EDIT: mother's parents in Lofoten). 

 

Mother's name: Hilda Burke (Berg?)

 

Father's name: Hans Jourgenson (Jørgensen?). Ella said he was an English sailor (not true?)

 

Ella's grandchild has taken a DNA-test (Family Finder). She is for sure of Norwegian roots.

 

3 pretty close matches has ancestry from Hemnes (2) and Alstahaug (1) in Nordland. Many of her matches (not so close related) has also ancestry in Hedmark area including Forest Finns.

 

There are other Norwegian matches with ancestry all over Norway, including Balsfjord (Troms) and Lyngen (Troms).

 

Some of her DNA matches are from Sweden, but those matches don't seem to be as close as the Norwegians.

Endret Februar 5, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

Hitting a brickwall. But what do we have now:

 

Looking for Ella Mathilda Hansen or Jourgenson (Jørgensen?) born 10/7 1886 (probably?).

 

She said she was from Lofoten and also from Lapland. She also told that her mother died very early and that she was brought up by her father's parents (in England). Probably not true?

One story was that her father or grand father was a british sailor and of part spanish/moorish decent. She or her grandmother was born on a ship. The mother passed away 9 days after the birth of her or her mother and then the British father took the child to her maternal grandparents to be raised in Lofoten.

 

I think she said she was brought up by her mother's parents in Lofoten? I have been looking at the church records for most of Lofoten parishes for her baptized in 1886, but did not find anything. But I don't know much of the parishes in Nordland.

Endret Februar 5, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Hilary Underwood]

Thank you for clarifying the out of wedlock customs, Arnstein. That makes sense now. 

I am in the midst of writing the two matches you suggested via email and see if they have any information. 

 

It is a brick wall. A brick wall covered in cement! But I'll keep looking. 

 

Hi Inger! Yes, that is the story from my family. Her father was a British sailor named Eugene Banard and her mother was from Lofoten. Her mother passed away 9 days after she was born and her father took her to her maternal grandparents to be raised by them. It is hard to say if it was true or not. The story also is that her father was part Spaniard or of Moorish decent. My family loves stories so much of it could all fantasy. 

Endret Februar 5, 2016 av Hilary Underwood

[Leif Johannessen]

I think that if Ella Mathilde was born i 1886, someone in this forum would have found her. I guess some information must be wrong.

 

There is a Elen Dorthea born in Hemnes in 1893: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=1718&idx_id=1718&uid=ny&idx_side=-59

 

Father: Jørgen Christian Hansen. Mother: Ida Elise Anker Larsdatter.

 

Farm history says that Elen went to USA, but no source for this is given.

 

I have some second hand probate records (Svein Edvardsen). They say that her mother died in 1901 and her father in 1903. He was then a merchant at Hemnesberget. In 1903 three of her brothers and one sister were in USA. Elen was in Narvik, not far from Lofoten. (I have not found the scanned version yet.)

 

May be Ella for some reason has changed her vita a bit?

[Arnstein Rønning]

I was looking at the census of 1900 again, and found one Mathilde Jørgensen born 1884 in Dverberg (Nordland). I couldn't find her in the church book.

 

Then I looked at the mtDNA for Elly. She had W (very few tested W positiv in Norway). I looked again at the Norway DNA project, and found this one with W:

 

Malena Pedersd Dverberg b1750 Andøya, NRL, NO  

 

The mutations are similar except for one. 

Endret Februar 5, 2016 av Arnstein Rønning

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

I was looking at the census of 1900 again, and found one Mathilde Jørgensen born 1884 in Dverberg (Nordland). I couldn't find her in the church book.

I think this is nr. 8 here, Mathilde Kristine

 

Kildeinformasjon: Nordland fylke, Andenes i Dverberg, Ministerialbok nr. 899A04 (1881-1896), Fødte og døpte 1884, side 8.

Permanent sidelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?idx_kildeid=5377&idx_id=5377&uid=ny&idx_side=-12

Permanent bildelenke: http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20060828090367.jpg

Endret Februar 5, 2016 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Arnstein Rønning]

Very good, Inger Karin!

 

I will add that there has always been stories in the coastal areas of Norway, that some people from the Spanish armada in 1588 (they were taken by a storm) came ashore and spread their DNA (some people in Lofoten and other places having darker skin than usual). This could be the story of Ella too, when she said she had Spaniards among her ancestors.

 

Another thing I have to add, is that another maternal line in Norway DNA project (with haplogroupe W and grouped together with the one from Dverberg - exactly same mutations at HVR1) has same surname as also mentioned in her closest Norwegian match's ancestry - this maternal line with W goes back to Trøndelag.