Birth Dates Confusions.

[Richard Lervold]

In my search for names for my family tree, I have found 3 individuals that may be in my tree, but there dates are hard to pin down.

 

The first one is Olav Ivarsson Måk.  The dates I have are c1180 - c1224.

His son is Ivar Olavsen  with dates of c1204 -1240

His son is Baron Jon "Raud" Ivarsson with dates of 1245 - c1312.

 

My confusion on the dates has come from visiting the following sites:

 

www.fredrikahlander.com/genealogy/p93a06d40.html

www.ancestry.com/.../ivar-olavson-skedjuhov_41885186

www.wilsons.nu/slakt/indiI2473.html

www.genvagar.nu/show.asp?PersonId=507900

www.genealogy.com/ftm/a/r/e/Charles-L-Arendts-ID/WEBSITE..

 

I have visited a couple other genealogy.com sites and the dates vary on them too.

 

Any assistance in helping me with the correct dates for these 3 individual would be deeply appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

Richard Lervold

[Kristian Hunskaar (Arkivverket)]

These people lived 7-800 years ago, and it's impossible to pin their birth and death years exactly. All dates are estimates based on years of mention in the sagas etc.

 

By the way, I don't think that it's proved or even commonly accepted that Jon Ivarsson was Ivar Olavsson's son and/or Olav Ivarsson's grandson, so perhaps you should end your tree with Jon Ivarsson.

[Richard Lervold]

I have attached a file that is were I found the names and dates for The first one is Olav Ivarsson Måk.  The dates I have are c1180 - c1224.

His son is Ivar Olavsen  with dates of c1204 -1240, His son is Baron Jon "Raud" Ivarsson with dates of 1245 - c1312.

 

I hope this information will help. 

 

I also have the father of Olav (Ivar) as well as his grandfather (Åle Ivarsson Varg), his great grandfather (Ivar Håkonsen Varg) back to and back further.

 

But, the accuracy is based on the Genealogy sites listed above.

 

The trail splits about c1040 with Ragnhild Magnusdatter, through his father, Magnus I Olavsson and then through the mother, Bergljot Håkonsdatter Lade.

 

Any and all help will be deeply appreciated as well as clarification.

 

Thank you.

 

Richard Lervold

ANCESTRY 1-16-2018 .docx

[Are S. Gustavsen]

Richard,

 

Your questions are simple, yet utmost difficult to answer.

 

You see, Norwegian genealogical research, or any other genealogy research, for that matter, needs to be evidenced by actual sources, preferably contemporary documents.

 

From what I can see, you've compiled your information from a number of online databases, which in itself poses yet another difficulty. These databases are full of inaccuracies and, as a rule of thumb, they are notorious on distributing half-lies and made up connections.

 

The family in question, «Sudrheims-ætten» (the Sudreim family), is a very well known Norwegian noble family, and a very popular one, I might add. This especially due to its proven connection to the Norwegian royal family at the time.

 

However, there are no extant documents providing any actual birth years or dates for any of these people, whatsoever. That is, with an exception for some of the members of the royal family. Hence, it is absolutely futile to seek accurate birth dates on individuals who lived during medieval time, appearing in the mentioned databases.

 

The years of birth and death are all a matter of conjecture, they are either calculated or estimated. So you will not be able to find any document to support any exact dates of birth or death regarding any of the individuals you are asking about.

 

Furthermore, your will not be able to document the generations that allegedly are making a connection from Jon Ivarsson (mentioned 1295–1312) back into the 1200s and beyond. There is a distinct possibility Jon is the son of Ivar of «Skedjuof», as argued by Henning Sollied in his well-written article series «Kildekritiske undersøkelser vedrørende nogen middelalderslekter. III. Sudrheims-ætten», Norsk Slektshistorisk Tidsskrift, vol. VIII, pp. 112–131, 259–280, and 384–402 (in Norwegian), about Ivar see in particular pages 259 through 261. However, this is a circumstantial argument, and the circumstantial evidence to support it may still be very much in dispute.

 

Then there is the issue of whether or not your own connection to «Sudrheims-ætten» can be proven from around 1600s and down to the 1300s. It would be good if you could provide this forum with information of your linage from about year 1600 and back to Jon Ivarsson before we proceed.

 

Do you claim linage through Sigurd Havtoresson or his brother Jon Havtoresson? In case, how do you arrive at that connection?

 

Best regards,

 

Are

 

 

 

Endret Januar 17, 2018 av Are S. Gustavsen
Korrektur

[Richard Lervold]

I received the follow pdf file back in June 2017.

 

Elen Bonsach (30).pdf ('kontor@slektogdata.no')

 

This document runs my family tree from Elen Johanne Bonsach (1783-1837) to Jon Havtorsson Raud (1315-1395).

 

The trail from Elen to my father goes from Niels Larsen Lillehagen (1803-1881) to John Nilsen Lissehagen (1830-) to Neils Johnsen Lervold (1858-1929) to my father.

 

The direction back from Jon Havtorsson Raud to where the confusion starts.  

 

Thank you for your information.

 

NOTE:  I was born in Seattle.

 

Richard Lervold

Las Vegas

[Are S. Gustavsen]

Richard,

 

There is no PDF file attached to your recent posting, while it seems you intended to do so.

 

While waiting for the PDF to repost, or for you to post the names directly into this thread, I've located one of your earlier postings from a different thread as of last year ("Ancestry Help" https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/208759-ancestry-help/), where you've indicated that the linage back to Jon Havtoresson goes through Åsa Ulvsdotter: 

 

Sitat

"And a third branch goes to Gunnborg Tormodsdatter Kamp (1430), through Birgitte Cecilia Olufsdatter Gyldenhorn (c1390) to Aasa Ulfsdatter Lejon (c1370), through Cecilia Jonsdatter Suderheim (1345) and to Jon Havtoresson Raud (c1312).  Almost all these are in Norway."

 

The family names Kamp, Gyldenhorn, Lejon and Raud were never used by any of these individuals. This is all a later literary construct from the 1700s.

 

Furthermore, if this is part of the linage allegedly leading you back to Jon Havtoresson, you will find you have been thoroughly mislead. Åsa Ulvsdotter's parents are not known at all. Her claimed connection to Sudrheim-ætten is pure guesswork, a guesswork that has been rejected scientifically many years ago.

 

All depending on how you claim to be connected to Åsa Ulvsdotter, you may have to cut off this branch of your family tree altogether at an earlier point in time.

 

Best regards,

 

Are

 

[Are S. Gustavsen]

På 18.1.2018 den 1.06, Richard Lervold skrev:

I received the follow pdf file back in June 2017.

 

Elen Bonsach (30).pdf ('kontor@slektogdata.no')

 

This document runs my family tree from Elen Johanne Bonsach (1783-1837) to Jon Havtorsson Raud (1315-1395).

 

 

Richard,

 

When will you be providing the PDF or the linage itself?

 

Best regards,

 

Are

[Richard Lervold]

Have attached, hopefully, of the above PDF file.

 

Let me know if you get it.

 

Thanks for you response.

 

Best regards,

 

Richard.

Elen Bonsach (30).pdf

[Are S. Gustavsen]

Richard,

 

I've had the chance to review the attached file.

 

General remarks

The PDF-file has no independent value as any reliable source to genealogical information at all.

 

It is a compilation of amateur research, thus compiling many many years of simple mistakes and misunderstandings throughout. The few source references that are included only provide for what some known individuals thought to be the research status of certain families at the time (20 years ago around the birth of Internet research, i.e. largely based on massive exchanges of data without any QA work to the same). Mere references to web-sites of Per Nermo, Alf Christophersen, Ketil Firing Hanssen and other early website activists or entrepreneurs, do not provide any level of genealogical proof. On the contrary. The warning signs come in thousands. There are hardly any entry made connected to any of the people listed in the Stradonitz compilation of Else Bonsach, that is without error. Thus it would be a huge undertaking, attempting to discuss every single entry.

 

Remarks to the alleged Jon Havtoresson linage

Above, I've indicated that the linage going back to Jon Havtoresson must be cut. After reviewing the attached PDF-file, the conclusion remains the same. Åsa Ulvsdotter's parents are still unknown. In earlier works of amateurs, she has wrongfully been made a daughter of Ulv Holmgeirsson. There is no evidence to support such a connection. Ulv Holmgeirsson was indeed married to Cecilia Jonsdotter, a daughter of Jon Havtoresson, however there are no trace of any connection to the people of Elingård, the estate were Olav Torsteinsson and Åsa Ulvsdotter resided. The known agnatic linage deriving from this couple, was later (in the 1700s), anachronistically named "Gyldenhorn", largely based on the presence of a horn in their seals. However, the name "Gyldenhorn" cannot be attributed to this family as a family name for one simple reason, they never used it themselves.

 

Regarding the claimed descendence Elen Bonsach has from this family, it would not matter, as it is false. 

 

The linage as it appears in the Bonsach-PDF:

 

«203 Randi Lauridsdatter Holck»

 

«406 Laurids Olufsen Holch [...]»

«407 Marthe Jonsdatter Pake [...]»

 

«812 Oluf Jonssøn Holk» [page 27 and 33 in the Bonsach PDF]

 

«1624. Jon Alvssøn Kamp [...]»

«1625 Cecilia Gjestdatter Holck [...]»

 

«3250 Gjest Tjøstolvssøn Holk [...]»

«3251 Gunnborg Tormodsdatter [..]

 

«6502. Tormod Eivindsson Foss [...]»

«6503. Nn Olavsdatter Gyldenhorn [....]»

 

«13007. Åsa Ulfsdatter Lejon, datter av Ulf Holmgeirsson Ama Leijonbalk Riksråd og Cecilie Jonsdatter Sudrheim. Generelle notater: Skiftre ettre henne i 1433. (Kilde Keti l Firing Hanssen, web)»

 

For the purposes of critiquing a linage, one only needs to point to the weakest link closest in time, then the rest becomes irrelevant. That link is "812". The current status in Norwegian genealogical research, is that the patronymic for "Oluf Holck" is unknown. He appears in only one document by this name, at August 9th, 1525 (DN XI, nr. 409): http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst_2016.prl?b=10151&s=n&str=

 

So, making the conjecture he is to be identified with a certain "Oluf Jonsson" appearing a couple of times in the 1540s as a local bailif, is exactly that, a conjecture, or in plain English, guesswork. 

 

Conclusion

There is however, evidence that may support that his patronymic may be a different one, but that research has been a work in progress for the last 20-25 years. For our purpose, it is not significant, as the burden of proof rests with the one who makes a statement of linage. And since there is no proof Oluf Holck ever was a "Jonsson", we have found the weakest link and the entire linage is broken. Without being able to prove Oluf Holck's connection to his claimed parents, it is futile to discuss any of the other links back to an unnamed daughter of Olav Torsteinsson and Åsa Ulvsdotter.

 

For the sake of the argument, I will want to add that there are no proven children of Tormod Eivindsson, and to the best of my knowledge he cannot be located to any given farm in the old Borgasyssel (nowadays Østfold).

 

Consequence

So, all in all, I would recommend to strike out most of the information that is obtained merely through websites. Websites are notorious for spreading false information. If you do not have a primary source or quality literature to support your linage, chances are you are engaging in "fairy tale"-research. It is all made up.

(Then) Once upon a time you started to believe it. (Now) End of story.

 

Best regards,

 

Are

Endret Januar 29, 2018 av Are S. Gustavsen
Korrektur

[Richard Lervold]

Are,

 

I really appreciate your details response to the PDF file and pointing out the errors.

 

I am sorry it took me so long to respond to your message as my computer took a medical holiday.

 

With my search stopping at 13007, Åsa Ulfsdatter Lejon, the tree has gown more than I had hoped.

 

I will keep looking, hoping accuracy will take the place of hoping.

 

Back in 1965, when I was a young American GI, I visited Oslo and than by bus to Throndheim to work with your military.

 

When were being shown the town and wearing my uniform with my name tag one, (Lervold), our guest told me several times that there were Lervold's living

in the area.  Unfortunately, I had no knowledge of this fact and never had the opportunity to follow up.

 

Again, I am very humble to you and all your follow contributors.

 

Maybe, some day in the future, my tree will start again.

 

Best regards,

 

Richard.

[Richard Lervold]

Are,

 

I have attached a couple links from a web site out of Norway.

 

Not totally sure of the accuracy, but may be a starting point.

 

Thank and best regards,

 

Richard

(L-1) 4-2-2017 Cecilia Jonsdatter (c 1345) - Tore Ragnvaldsen (c862).url

(L-1) -Zi- Cecilia Jonsdatter Sudrheim (c1345) Zinow Genealogy Website.url