Barn or Krone in digital ministerial record book for Larvik

[Lorelle VanFossen]

The record image is: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8250/88

The item is the first one under Anno 1817, female #1.

 

We have conflicting readings of the word before the deceased person's name, Dorthe Hansdatter. Two people say it is "barn" and another says it is"krone." Can you help clarify this word for us?

 

The woman married to Knud Hansen, if this is the right one I'm searching for, was named in other records as Dorthe Christophersdatter, but in this record for her death, she is listed as Dorthe Hansdatter. I am trying to prove that this person is the same Dorthe Christophersdatter married to the blacksmith Knud Hansen originally from Ulefoss and Hørte working at the ironworks mill there, also known as Knud Hansen Møller (born abt. 1779). He married Dorthe Christophersdatter 9 Jul 1807 in Bø, Telemark. The records of their children's births list her also as Christophersdatter. I've been searching for a marriage between a Knud Hansen and Dorthe Hansdatter to disprove that this is the same blacksmith and wife, but haven't found such a record yet.

 

A cross-reference for the death of Dorthe Hansdatter is also found in the Larvik ministerial book nr. I 1/1814 - 1825 at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8253/106. It references page 695 in the "general register" and I haven't found that yet. Could you point me to that image? Thank you.

 

I really appreciate any assistance you can provide for this. We've several genealogists debating over the transcription of the Norwegian word in the record, and debating over whether or not this is the "right" wife for our Knud Hansen. LOL! Thanks for helping solve this mystery.

 

Lorelle

 

 

 

 

[Kristian Hunskaar (Arkivverket)]

35 minutter siden, Lorelle skrev:

The record image is: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8250/88

The item is the first one under Anno 1817, female #1.

 

We have conflicting readings of the word before the deceased person's name, Dorthe Hansdatter. Two people say it is "barn" and another says it is"krone." Can you help clarify this word for us?

 

The word is "kone" i.e. "wife".

[Kristian Hunskaar (Arkivverket)]

37 minutter siden, Lorelle skrev:

A cross-reference for the death of Dorthe Hansdatter is also found in the Larvik ministerial book nr. I 1/1814 - 1825 at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8253/106. It references page 695 in the "general register" and I haven't found that yet. Could you point me to that image? Thank you.

 

That is page 695 in the same protocol: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070502670203

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

Hi Lorelle:

 

This is a bit of a round-around way of approaching it, but here is my reasoning for thinking this might not be your Knud Hansen.

 

Knud Hansen, widower and master smith of Langestrand (and thus almost certainly the one whose wife Dorthe "Hansdatter" died in 1817) became engaged to remarry to a widow Gertrud Jørgensdatter on 26 July 1818 (see entry 2 at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/116). Even though they do not seem to have officially married until 15 November 1822, they had a daughter Dorthea Christine in 1820 (born 1 Oct, baptised 12 Nov - see entry 11 on right side at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/11). They had another daughter Maren in 1823 (born 21 June, baptised 9 Nov - see right side at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/24). The fact that the first daughter was named Dorthea is another strong indicator that this Knud Hansen was the widower of Dorthe Hansdatter - it was customary in Norway at this time for the first child (of the appropriate gender) of a second marriage to be named after the deceased first spouse.

 

Now the important point is that both of these daughters were confirmed in Larvik - Dorthe Christine in 1835 (entry 2 on right side of https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/155) and Maren in 1838 (entry 2 on right side of https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/159 - note that at this point her father Knud Hansen, smith, is called dead [afdøde]). In addition, a step-son of Knud Hansen, Carl Jørgen Svendsen, was confirmed in 1826 (entry 3 on left side of https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/145).

 

So this means that Knud Hansen remained in Larvik. This in turn means that any children of his first marriage should also have been confirmed in Larvik. But I do not see any additional children of Knud Hansen, smith, being confirmed in Larvik. In particular, the two daughters of Knud Hansen and Dorthe Christophersdatter who are named in familysearch.org (Aaste Cathrine Knudsdatter and Johanne Severine Knudsdatter) are not here (you can search for confirmations in Larvik 1818-1842 at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1253/145).

 

See also the 1825 census (which provides some actual detail for Larvik) - it lists Knud Hansen, smith, as living with wife Gjertrud and children Carl Jørgen, Dorthe Kirstine, and Maren (https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01051178002243). No sign of the children of Dorthe Christophersdatter.

Endret Mai 22, 2018 av Carl-Henry Geschwind

[Jon Erik Berg-Hansen]

Digitized confirmations for Larvik :

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/sources?s=&from=1818&to=1842&archive_key=&lt[0]=kf&m[0]=0707

 

All searchable (so far) church books for Larvik / Langestrand parishes

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/sources?s=&from=&to=&format=tab_ftr&archive_key=&sc[]=kb&m[]=0707

 

Endret Mai 22, 2018 av Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

[Lorelle VanFossen]

Thank you to both of you for helping me out.

 

@Carl-Henry: This is the reasoning that I've been following myself, and like you, it relies upon assumptions. Forward or backwards, I'm still trying to figure out where "Hansdatter" came from, and clarify if this is the ONLY Dorthe and Knud Hansen in Larvik at that time, and this is an error or...I don't know what.

 

Knud Hansen left Hørte and the iron works there, where generations of his family lived and worked, and moved to Larvik after the great flood destroyed the mills and the company abandoned the area. According to Soga om Hørteverket, page 565, there were other children who died (in previous generations) named Maren (1728-1749). In keeping with the naming traditions you mentioned, it seems likely that the first child of Knud and Gertrud might be named in her honor or just following the family tradition.

 

Seriously, I have so many Knud Hansens and Hans Knudsens in this line, my brain is starting to melt. Such common names, how do you all keep track? Seriously? I'm learning.

 

To make some sense of this, here are my thoughts.

 

1. We have strong evidence through multiple sources that the Knud Hansen who married Gjertrud Jørgensdatter is connected to my family with Knud's daughter, Aaste Cathrine Knudsdatter from his first wife, Dorthe, and you helped me identify the children in his second marriage. That was next on my list. Thank you.

 

2. Where did Carl Svensen come from? What a discovery! Next on my list is to research the Svendsen/Svensen family, an important connection to our family through several marriages, leading to Christopher Gustav Olauf Svendsen who raised not only my grandfather but my grandmother after the death of their mothers. Not sure if this is a relative or not, it is interesting. In births and baptisms in Larvik [https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000008793128] on 16 Aug 1910 I find Gjertrud Jørgensdatter listed as "fadder" with the position of Svend Hansen's Kone. Could this be the same? On FamilySearch [https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KZJ4-8D8] I found two records for Gjertrud Jorgensdr married to Svend Hansen listing a son Stephanus Svendsen (Christening 3 Nov 1811, Langestrand, Larvik) and daughter Karen Svendsen (Christening 15 Jan 1813 in Larvik), and a marriage [https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MS9M-G6G] 9 Sep 1808 of the couple in Langestrand, Larvik, which also matches, so is it likely that this is her first husband? I could only find the confirmation not a birth record, as you found, for Carl, identifying his father as Knud Hansen. It would help to find something that identified his father as Svend or Sven.

 

3. With the clarification that Dorthe Hansdatter is a "wife" not a child of Knud Hansen, and if we trust that our assumptions are right, dismissing the use of "Hansdatter" as an error (what else could it be?), then we can conclude that this Dorthe Hansdatter is the same as Dorthe Christophersdatter, but I still wonder.

 

Sorry, by my nature, I'm a debater. I hate not knowing and dread assumptions without an overwhelming amount of evidence. Ah, genealogy. 😄

 

Thank you so much!

 

UPDATE: @Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

Thank you! Those links will help so much.

 

Endret Mai 22, 2018 av Lorelle

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

Hi Lorelle:

 

Birth of Carl Jørgen to Svend Handsen and Gerthrud Jørgensd. on 25 January 1809, baptised 25 February 1809: see left-hand side, second entry from bottom, at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8250/33.

 

I guess my main question would be - where are the daughters of the first marriage in the 1820s? We know that at least Karen (born 1810) Aaste Cathrine (born late 1813) survived to adulthood, as they married in the late 1830s (Karen in Larvik, Aaste in nearby Stavern)  - so where were they confirmed, if not in Larvik (should be c. 1825 for Karen and c. 1828 for Aaste)? Where they farmed out to relatives when their mother Dorthe died?

 

Incidentally, please note that the administrators of this forum really prefer for users to display their full name.

 

--Carl-Henry

Endret Mai 22, 2018 av Carl-Henry Geschwind

[Egil Johannessen]

1 time siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

Incidentally, please note that the administrators of this forum really prefer for users to display their full name.

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

[Dag Thorsdalen]

Lorelle, your assumption that Knud Hansen and Dorthe Christophersdatter from Hørteverket came to Langestrand, Larvik seems to be solid. The probate registration after the deceased Dorte Christophersdatter was opened at Langestrand on 17 Oct 1817.

SAKO, Larvik byfogd, H/Hb/Hbc/L0001: Skifteforhandlingsprotokoll I, 1797-1821, p. 1156-1157:

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20081223320610 

SAKO, Larvik byfogd, H/Hb/Hbc/L0001: Skifteforhandlingsprotokoll I, 1797-1821, p. 1286-1287

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20081223320675 

 

She was survived by her husband Knud Hansen and the following children:

1. Daughter Karen Knutsdatter, 8 years old

2. Daughter Oste Katrine Knutsdatter, 4 years old

3. Daughter Johanne Severine Knutsdatter, 1 year old

 

All the children was said to be at home with their father.

 

 

Knud Hansen and Dorthe Christophersdatter's children:

 

Hans, born 20 Oct 1807, baptized 25 Oct 1807, Bø, Telemark: 

SAKO, Bø kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1785-1815, p. 207-208

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061208060323 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000008732568 

He died on 12 Oct 1810 and was buried on 20 Oct 1810:

SAKO, Bø kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1785-1815, p. 237-238

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061208060338 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001625241 

 

Mari, born 24 Feb 1810, baptized 4 Mar 1810, Bø, Telemark: 

SAKO, Bø kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1785-1815, p. 231-232

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061208060335 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000008733139 

Be aware that the father's name has been "turned around".

 

Aaste Cathrine, born 13 Dec 1813, baptized 19 Dec 1813, Bø, Telemark: 

SAKO, Bø kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. 5, 1785-1815, p. 261-262

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061208060350 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000008734331 

Even though her mother's patronymic (once again?) has become incorrect, this is probably her confirmation record (#30 to the right):

SAKO, Brunlanes kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0002: Parish register (official) no. I 2, 1802-1834, p. 548-549
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060410020726 

Brunlanes is next to both Larvik and Stavern.

 

Johanne Severine, born 8 Oct 1816, baptized 20 Oct 1816, Solum, Telemark:

SAKO, Solum kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0004: Parish register (official) no. I 4, 1814-1833, p. 16

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051005041056 

The vicar kindly noted that Knud was from Bø Parish and that he and Dorthe were on the move to Larvik!

She died 24 Apr 1818 and was buried 30 Apr 1818, Langestrand, Larvik:

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 180-181

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051005041056 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001934481 

 

 

Knud Hansen and Gjertrud Jørgensdatter's children:

 

Hans Christian, born 4 Aug 1818, baptized 15 nov 1818:

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 36-37

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019021013 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000011199910 

He died 22 Sep 1819 and was buried 26 Sep 1819:

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 190-191

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019021094 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001934525 

 

Dorthea Christine, born 1 Oct 1820, baptized 19 Nov 1820: 

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 42-43

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019021016 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000011200192 

 

Maren, born 21 Jun 1823, baptized 9 Nov 1823:

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 66-67

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019021029 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000011200908 

 

 

Knud Hansen died 5 Dec 1836 and was buried 12 Dec 1836, Langestrand, Larvik:

SAKO, Larvik kirkebøker, F/Fb/L0002: Parish register (official) no. II 2, 1818-1842, p. 224-225

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051019021112 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001935034 

Be aware that the correct year is 1836 - not 1837, as the transcribed record quotes.

 

 

My conclusions:

 

1. Knud Hansen's wife Dorthe Christophersdatter died between October 1816 and October 1817.

 

2. In October 1816 they were under way from Bø to Larvik when their daughter Johanne Severine was born and baptized.

 

3. It's likely that Dorthe's patronymic has become incorrect twice, both when she was buried and in her daughter Aaste Cathrine's confirmation record.

 

4. As far as I have been able to find out, there was only one married Dorthe Hansdatter living at Langestrand in the years up to 1817. However, she was still alive on 17 Jul 1817, so she wasn't the one buried there on 1 Mar that year.

 

 

[Lorelle VanFossen]

@Carl-Henry Geschwind Thank you.

 

Aaste Cathrine Knudsdatter moved with her husband, Anders/Andreas/Andrias Andersen/son to Wisconsin where she became Trina Hansen, interpreted in the records also as Farina or Tarina Hansen and Anderson, thus creating the brickwall that prevented crossing the sea to Norway for so many years. Their children went with them, and I'm seeking the other family members that stayed or also traveled overseas before, with, and after.

 

@Dag Thorsdalen Amazing. I was just going to share some of these links in my reply for the things I've uncovered, but you've found them all.

 

I'm having trouble reading Dorthe's last name in the https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060410020726 record for Aaste Cathrine. You are right that it doesn't resemble Christofersdtr, which confirms what I tell my students: Once you make an assumption, you see the assumption whether or not it is right. SIGH. How did I miss that!

 

The tidbit you found about the comment on the family moving from the mountains to Larvik is amazing. Wonderful! I'm trying to transcribe it, so forgive my destruction of the language [https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1411/18]:

 

Quote

Page 383, Female #55,. Oct 8 [1816], Johanne Severine, Oct. 20, Knud Hansen af Boe og Dorthe Christophsdtr ?? a gnaatin ? flyss? G? 6 til Larvig, Kayen Halv? uers lak godatten, Karen Nils d. ? Ole Halvorsen, abd., Lars Olsen, ? Anders Christofersen Skien.

 

 

The names of the fadders may unlock other mysteries around Dorthe Christofersdatter. At present, we haven't found her birth, though it looks like we've found her death, and we don't know where she came from or her parents. If Anders Christofersen Skien represents a brother, and Skien the area of birth or residence, that might be helpful. It also makes sense that if she didn't know much about her own birth, or had reason to hide the information, that her last name would have been mistaken by informants.

 

With only one Dorthe Hansdatter still alive after the 1 March 1817 death, and all the other collaborating evidence, I think that this is her death record...for now. 😄

 

I hate it when people introduce a different topic in a forum post, so forgive this related tangent. I can easily move from the transcribed index to the record book, then search for the page number, but have trouble reversing the process, going from the image to the transcribed index. Am I missing the link that connects an image with its transcription? That would so help.

 

I am digging through the rest of the information with great delight! Thank you so very much for helping me resolve some of the mysteries of Dorthe Christofersdatter.

 

[Carl-Henry Geschwind]

Hi Lorelle:

 

1) To go from the image back to the transcription is a somewhat involved process, it appears. Above the image on the right side you will see a little i (which is labeled "source information" if you hover over it), and next to it two interconnected chain-links (labeled "reference links" if you hover over it). If you click on those chain-links, then the last of the links will be to "Search transcribed source". This is not to the transcription itself, but rather to the search interface for this particular church book, where you can then search for the transcription. I'm sorry if this description is unclear; perhaps others can provide a better explanation with pictures.

 

2) In the case of Johanne Severine's baptism, the baptisms in that church book have not been transcribed in digitalarkivet yet; only the deaths and burials have been transcribed so far.  I make the entry out as follows: " [birth] Oct 8 [name] Johanne Severine [baptism] Oct 20 [parents] Knud Hansen af Boe og Dorte Cristofersd. nu i Graaten men flytter strax til Laurvig [godparents] Karen Halvorsdat Graatten Karen Nilsd. ibd. Ole Halvorsen ibd. Lars Olsen ibd. Anders Cristofersen Skien"  The parents bit translates as: "Knud Hansen of Boe and Dorte Cristofersdatter now in Graaten but moving soon to Laurvig [i.e., Larvik]." The godparents include four people from Graaten (where Knud and Dorte were currently living) as well as the Anders Cristofersen from Skien. I do not know the local geography sufficiently well to identify Graaten (a farm in Solum?); Skien is a town that directly adjoins Solum parish, and Anders might either have been born there or be a current resident who had moved there from elsewhere.

[Dag Thorsdalen]

6 timer siden, Lorelle VanFossen skrev:

I'm having trouble reading Dorthe's last name in the https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060410020726 record for Aaste Cathrine. You are right that it doesn't resemble Christofersdtr, which confirms what I tell my students: Once you make an assumption, you see the assumption whether or not it is right. SIGH. How did I miss that!

 

I read it as Sørensdt. = Sørensdatter.

 

1 time siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

2) In the case of Johanne Severine's baptism, the baptisms in that church book have not been transcribed in digitalarkivet yet; only the deaths and burials have been transcribed so far.  I make the entry out as follows: " [birth] Oct 8 [name] Johanne Severine [baptism] Oct 20 [parents] Knud Hansen af Boe og Dorte Cristofersd. nu i Graaten men flytter strax til Laurvig [godparents] Karen Halvorsdat Graatten Karen Nilsd. ibd. Ole Halvorsen ibd. Lars Olsen ibd. Anders Cristofersen Skien"  The parents bit translates as: "Knud Hansen of Boe and Dorte Cristofersdatter now in Graaten but moving soon to Laurvig [i.e., Larvik]." The godparents include four people from Graaten (where Knud and Dorte were currently living) as well as the Anders Cristofersen from Skien. I do not know the local geography sufficiently well to identify Graaten (a farm in Solum?); Skien is a town that directly adjoins Solum parish, and Anders might either have been born there or be a current resident who had moved there from elsewhere.

 

There is a transcription on the local genelogical website solumslekt.org (go to page 16): https://www.solumslekt.org/kilder/kirkebok/solum4d.php 

 

Sitat

Født 08.10.1816, døpt 20.10.1816: Johanne Severine, foreldre Knud Hansen af Bøe og Dorte Cristofersdatter, nu i Graaten men flytter strax til Laurvig. Faddere: Karen Halvorsdatter Graatten, Karen Nilsdatter Graatten, Ole Halvorsen Graatten, Lars Olsen Graatten, Anders Cristofersen Skien.

 

The "klokkerbok" - the copy parish register has a slightly different spelling of some of the names:

SAKO, Solum kirkebøker, G/Ga/L0001: Parish register (copy) no. I 1, 1814-1833, p. 16

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061207060005 

 

Graaten - modern spelling is Gråten - is a former Solum farm and now a residential area in the City of Skien. Already at this time it was a suburb, so some of the mentioned persons might be hard to indentify.

 

[Lorelle VanFossen]

@Carl-Henry Geschwind You explained it beautiful. This is what I found. I was just hoping for a direct connection, but I understand why it works this way. Thank you. And thank you for the great transcription and translation. It's a simple note but it is so important a note for this family's life. Leaving the mill works area after so many generations must have een a difficult decision, and it makes me curious to know more about the flood and how many from the community traveled with them as just about everyone lost their jobs.

 

@Dag Thorsdalen: Sørensdatter? Well, isn't that interesting. I feel like I have a spy in my past. Three last names! Ooooh! LOL!

 

The farm names will help with more research to find how these people are connected. Interesting that none of the names seem to match those on previous baptism ad confirmation records, and that they lived close to the event rather than traveled with them (possibly) from Hørte, but that is an assumption that requires more investigation. 

 

Much here to digest and process. I'm getting ready to leave Norway in a few days to head back to the real world. Thank you so much for all your help and patience. This is so exciting to finally find information on my ancestors after decades of blank walls. Thank you so much.

 

 

[Dag Thorsdalen]

Lorelle, I guess that the reason why they stopped over at Gråten to have their baby was because the owners of the Hørte and Holden Iron Works had their provisions magazine and an inn there. Ive been able to identfiy one of the baptism witnesses; Karen Halvordatter Graaten. Her own origin is unknown. However, her husband belonged to a family known in the Skien/Porsgrunn Area at least from the 15th Century. I find it unlikely that there was a connection between her and this family. So perhaps the witnesses - with the possible exception of Anders Christophersen of Skien - just were neighbors to the inn, stepping in as witnesses?