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Lorelle VanFossen

Møller name in Hørte, Telemark

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Lorelle VanFossen

As mentioned as the husband of Dorthe Christfersdatter in this discussion [https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/222506-barn-or-krone-in-digital-ministerial-record-book-for-larvik/ Knud Hansen Møller and his family brings up another challenge for me.

 

According to two Norwegian history and genealogy experts, the use of Møller in the family names for multiple generations of Knud Hansen Møller and Hans Knutsson Møller indicates the following options:

 

1. This is a German family name passed down through generations.

2. This name is an honorific or title as they were all blacksmiths, referred to as Millers working in the ironworks mills.

 

Issue One: If this is a German family name and the earliest date of record for this family is before about 1680, where would we look for some form of confirmation, migration, immigration, something to substantiate this conclusion?

 

Issue Two: If this is an honorific/job title, and each one reached proficiency to be rewarded with this title:

 

1. Is this a true tradition? If so, why do I not see more Møllers in the records? I found a few, including ancestors, but only a very few in the area. If this was a special job and title, then only a few with that title makes sense.

2. Could such a title be passed down automatically (inherited) in the names of the children or is this earned?

3. Would there be certification papers, tests, or some other record form for earning the qualification?

 

Hørte was a company town, and I understand that they have the archives in a private holding, and I may have access to a couple people who can visit them if I cannot find information outside of those records, so any help in narrowing down these two assumptions and helping me identify records to substantiate this would be appreciated. Thank you!

Family Tree - Aaste Cathrine Knudsdatter - Vidar.png

Endret av Lorelle VanFossen

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Egil Johannessen

“Soga om Hørteverket” (The story about Hørteverket), Forfatter, Hvitsand, Jon, Publisert, Hørtesogelaget, 1984 - https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2011111708231

 

Page 523 - 609 - Møller-ætta fra Saksland (The Møller Clan from Saxland) (old viking name for Northern part of Germany).

"Two brothers, Søfren and Hans Knutssøner came to Hørte in 1724 or shortly thereafter. There’s not much information before that time, only a couple of generations. Supposedly the clan came from Saxland and Thüringen (Germany)."

 

I cannot find any evidence of this claim provided in the book - it’s more based on “traditions” (German mining expertise coming to Norway) and the German name “Müller”.

 

Hopefully some of the experts on this topic can shed some more light on the Møller Clan in Hørte.

 

Møller-ætta frå Saksland.jpg

Endret av Egil Johannessen

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Egil Johannessen

From page 234, same book:

Knut Hansson Møller_page 234.jpg

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Egil Johannessen

From page 565, same book:

Hans Knutsson Møller_b. 1702_page 565.jpg

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Egil Johannessen

From page 566-67, same book:

Knut Hansson Møller_f.1732_page 566.jpg

Hans Knutsson Møller_b. 1753_page 567.png

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Dag Thorsdalen

Lorelle, there is a local genealogical webside giving much of the same information - and more - in English: http://www.holla-og-lundeslekt.org/slekt/default.do?event=about 

 

Even though I see that not everything is correct, you will find information about both ancestors and descendants of most of those you have on your tree. Here is what the website has about Knud Hansen Møller's ancestors: http://www.holla-og-lundeslekt.org/slekt/showAncestors.do?IId=26536&ancestorLevels=10 

 

To follow up the tradition of a possible German descent, these are the Møllers, Müllers and similar names mentioned in the Norwegian mining sources from the Mid-16th Century:

  • Mulner (Muhlner), Hans - mentioned as a hammersmith at Hakadal Iron Works 1540-41, at the Skien Mill 1541-43.
  • Mulner, the young - fra Germany to Norway 1539 as a "Bergjunge", i.e. as a mining apprentice.
  • Müller, Anders - mentioned as a hewer (i.e. skilled miner) at the Gullnes Mines, Seljord, Telemark 1545-46.
  • Müller, Baltzar - mentioned as a hewer and mining jack at the Moisesberg Mines, Fyresdal, Telemark 1545-46.
  • Müller, Georg (Jörgen) - mentioned as a "hammerskriver" (i.e. hammer clerk) 1545-46.
  • Müller, Meister Heinrich - mentioned at the Moisesberg Mines, Fyresdal, Telemark 1545. (Meister = Master.)
  • Möller, Georg (probably the same as Georg Müller) - together with a Hans Büttner he got a lisence to mine an old mine by "Hanekhin" at "Hoyewi heiden" (it has been suggested that these names might be read as "Hanetjenn" and "Hovinheia" in Upper Telemark , even though the name Hanetjenn isn't known in this area nowadays).
  • Møller, Jochim - mentioned as a mining jack at the Gullnes Mines, Seljord, Telemark in 1546.

The source of this information is the booklet: Berg, Bjørn Ivar: Tyskere ved norske bergverk på 1500-tallet, BVM working paper 1/2000, Norsk Bergverksmuseum, Kongsberg 2000 (for Norwegian IP-addresses only): https://www.nb.no/items/14788464bd2adeb6635c3845ecd931b3 

 

The question is whether or not it's possible to link any of these persons to persons living a-century-and-a-half or more later, if there is a connection at all. My experience is that it hardly could be done. Unfortunately the souces for this kind of people are too few and have hardly been reseached. Thus, I don't want to speculate in the origin of the Møller name of this family. However, in the 18th Century Møller obviously has been a fixed family name inherited from one generation to the next. 

 

 

7 timer siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

Page 523 - 609 - Møller-ætta fra Saksland (The Møller Clan from Saxland) (old viking name for Northern part of Germany).

"Two brothers, Søfren and Hans Knutssøner came to Hørte in 1724 or shortly thereafter. There’s not much information before that time, only a couple of generations. Supposedly the clan came from Saxland and Thüringen (Germany)."

 

Egil, these translations of these names are (The Electorate of) Saxony and Thuringia.

 

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Carl-Henry Geschwind

Dag:

 

That database names the mother of the two original miners in Hørte (Søfren and Hans Knutssøner) as Annichen Hansdatter Thüringer and states that she died 1 Oct 1736 at Hørte in Sauherad. If this name and connection is accurate, it would indicate that at least the mother's family came from Thuringia. But in looking at the Sauherad church book for October 1736 (https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/7923/51), I don't see a burial entry for her. What am I missing?

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Lorelle VanFossen

@Egil Johannessen Missed that page! My copies started with 565 and back to 137. Brilliant find. Thank you! I've been slowly editing the OCR from pictures with my phone and finding friends here to translate, and their struggles with the archaic words and words related to the iron industry has resulted in great pantomime games as they demonstrate what they think the words are and I try to guess them. LOL! It's great fun when even Google lets you down. 

 

@Dag: You are a wonder, as is everyone here. Having traced, with much help and skepticism, my other family lines in the USA back to the 15th century and across into England, the fact that I can go any distance in time anywhere is always shocking to me, as is the fact that the family stayed for multiple generations in one place. Great material! Thank you.

 

@Egil Johannessen: Thank you! Great find.

 

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Dag Thorsdalen
13 timer siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

hat database names the mother of the two original miners in Hørte (Søfren and Hans Knutssøner) as Annichen Hansdatter Thüringer and states that she died 1 Oct 1736 at Hørte in Sauherad. If this name and connection is accurate, it would indicate that at least the mother's family came from Thuringia. But in looking at the Sauherad church book for October 1736 (https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/7923/51), I don't see a burial entry for her. What am I missing?

 

Carl-Henry, the border between the parishes of Sauherad and Bø goes straight through Hørte, with people living on both sides of it. And I see that those belonging to the Hørte Iron Works often used the Gåra Church, Bø Parish. Thus, if you don't find what you are looking for in one register, you have to check the other one. And there I find her on 31 October 1736: Die Mercurii ofver Hammersmed Hans Knudssens Moder Sal: Annichen Hans Daatter.

SAKO, Bø kirkebøker, F/Fa/L0003: Parish register (official) no. 3, 1733-1748, p. 43

Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061208050580 

 

This is the date of her funeral, so from this source the date she died is unknown. If her age is correct, it indicates that she was born in April 1661.

 

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Carl-Henry Geschwind

Thank you, Dag. Great that the burial record makes explicit that Annichen Hansdatter was smith Hans Knudsen's mother, but too bad the last name Thüringer (which is the proper German spelling for someone from Thuringia) is not supported by this record.

Endret av Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Lorelle VanFossen

@Dag and Carl-Henry: Thank you both. I've been searching in both parishes as well. Good points. Thank you for your thoroughness.

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