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Emma Hall

Louis Thompson, born 1850 in Fredrikshald

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Emma Hall
Posted (edited)

Hi

 

I want to apologise in advance if my post isn’t something allowed on the forum - I don’t speak Norwegian so I am not sure what is allowed on the forum and what is not (or where to look to find out)

 

I am hoping someone can help me with some family research. My great great grandfather was born in Fredrikshald in 1850, his marriage certificate (in England) has his date of birth as 14 October. 

 

Unfortunately, he was known as Louis Thompson and we are unsure of his Norwegian birth name. The only other information we have about him / his family in Norway is the father’s name on the marriage certificate - Peter Thompson. We have records of him outside of Norway from around 1875.

 

I have looked on the online archives at a variety of parish books but haven’t had any success in locating a name similar (although I understand the name might not be a close match) or a birth date that matches. The closest I have found is Ole with a father called Peder born 14 October 1850. Are all the parish books for this area online and could someone perhaps send a link to the book or books I should be looking at?

 

Thank you so much in advance for any help.

 

Emma

 

Hei

 

Jeg vil be om unnskyldning på forhånd hvis innlegget mitt ikke er noe tillatt på forumet - jeg snakker ikke norsk, så jeg er ikke sikker på hva som er tillatt på forumet og hva som ikke er det (eller hvor jeg skal se etter)

 

Jeg håper noen kan hjelpe meg med familieforskning. Min oldefar ble født i Fredrikshald i 1850, hans ekteskapsattest (i England) har sin fødselsdato som 14. oktober.

 

Dessverre var han kjent som Louis Thompson, og vi er usikre på hans norske fødselsnavn. Den eneste andre informasjonen vi har om ham / hans familie i Norge, er farens navn på vigselsattesten - Peter Thompson. Vi har registreringer av ham utenfor Norge fra rundt 1875.

 

Jeg har sett på onlinearkivene på en rekke soknebøker, men har ikke hatt noen suksess med å finne et lignende navn (selv om jeg forstår at navnet kanskje ikke stemmer like godt med) eller en fødselsdato som samsvarer. Det nærmeste jeg har funnet er Ole med en far som heter Peder født 14. oktober 1850. Er alle menighetsbøkene for dette området på nettet, og kan noen kanskje sende en lenke til boka eller bøkene jeg burde se på?

 

På forhånd takk for all hjelp.

 

Emma

Edited by Emma Hall
Updated title

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Bodil Onsaker Berg

Hei!

Fint om du kan endre visningsnavnet til ditt fulle navn jamfør forumreglenr. https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

 

Du bør også endre tematittelen til noe mer informativt. Du kan redigere tittelen de første 24 timene.

 

 

Kan denne karen fra Fredrikshald være verd å kikke nærmere på?

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052004009400

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Ann-Mary Engum
Posted (edited)
26 minutter siden, Bodil Onsaker Berg skrev:

Hei!

Fint om du kan endre visningsnavnet til ditt fulle navn jamfør forumreglenr. https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

 

Du bør også endre tematittelen til noe mer informativt. Du kan redigere tittelen de første 24 timene.

 

 

Kan denne karen fra Fredrikshald være verd å kikke nærmere på?

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052004009400

 

 

Tror ikke det er riktig mann.

Fødselsdato stemmer ikke med trådstarter sin mann. 

Ei heller navnet til faren. 

Nr 103

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/383/73

 

Han bor hos foreldrene i 1875.

 

  • Tellingsår: 1875
  • Kommune: Halden
  • Kommunenummer: 0101
  • Gatenavn: Laxestrædet
  • Gatenr: 671
  • Bydel: 12
  • Gårdeier: Lauritz Pedersen
  • Antall leiligheter: 1

Antall personer registrert på bostedet: 11


  Navn Familie-stilling Sivil-stand Yrke Fødselsår Fødested Etnisitet
  Lauritz Pedersen hf g Slagter og skibsrehder 1824 Frederikshald  
  Carolin Andrine Mathilde?? Pedersen* hm     1832 Frederikshald  
  Carl Ludvig Pedersen Styrmand ug   1853 Frederikshald  
  Oscar Necolai Eugen Pedersen Theknisk?? Elev     1857 Frederikshald  
  Mariane Josefine Pedersen d     1860 Frederikshald  
  Anna Wilhelmin Pedersen d     1862 Frederikshald  
  Lovise Caroline Pedersen d     1865 Frederikshald  
  Niels Chr. August Pedersen s     1867 Frederikshald  
  Sofie Elise Pedersen d     1870 Frederikshald  
  Axel Emil Pedersen s     1871 Frederikshald  
  Sofie Marie Andersdatter Tjenestepige ug Tyende 1851 Aremark

https://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1875&knr=0101&kenr=008&bnr=0576&lnr=00

 

----

Carl Ludvig Pedersen

Norway Marriages, 1660-1926

Name: Carl Ludvig Pedersen
Birth Date: 04 Oct 1853
Spouse's Name: Caroline Matilde Amundsen
Spouse's Birth Date: 25 Mar 1853
Event Date: 28 Apr 1879
Event Place: Halden, Ostfold, Norway
Father's Name: Laurits Pedersen
Spouse's Father's Name: Laurits Amundsen

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW3F-7L6

 

Nr 25

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5463/331

 

 

Dette er ikke den samme som Louis Thompson! 

Edited by Ann-Mary Engum

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
2 hours ago, Emma said:

I want to apologise in advance if my post isn’t something allowed on the forum - I don’t speak Norwegian so I am not sure what is allowed on the forum and what is not (or where to look to find out)

 

Hi Emma:

 

This is a perfectly reasonable query for this board, and many people here do speak English.

 

However, a couple of rules to keep in mind: first, we do require that people use their full real names as their user names. See here for how to change your user name: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

 

You will also get much more help if you have a more informative title for your thread (something along the lines of "Louis Thompson, born 1850 in Fredrikshald"). You can edit the title of this thread within 24 hours of starting it.

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Emma Hall

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond to this post so far. I have updated the title and I am now using my full name as my username.

 

I have realised that the birth date of the one I previously found (Ole with father Peder) matches Louis’. Looking at various archives and records I get the impression that taking the father’s name as the surname was very common in the late 1800s so I was hoping I would be able to find him with a similar name - something completely different makes it difficult to determine if it is the correct person! It just got me wondering if all of the books were online or some were still being processed and therefore his record wasn’t yet available.

 

If it helps, this is the information we have on him.

 

date of birth - 14 October 1850

 

Place of birth - Fredrikshald

 

Father - Peter

 

1875 - first mention of him being on a ship (and therefore not in Norway)

 

Occupation - engineer / sailor

 

We have some documentation on his whereabouts during this time

 

1887 Married Sarah Elizabeth Hornsby in England

 

1891 - found for the first time on UK census 

 

They then had children - out of interest, is Oline a common name in Norway? The Ole listing in the baptism record I found shows the mother as Oline and he also called one of his daughters that. Sounds promising but could have just been a very popular name in the late 1800s!

 

He’s a bit of a mystery and any information is greatly received.

 

Takk til alle som har tatt seg tid til å svare på dette innlegget så langt. Jeg har oppdatert tittelen og bruker nå mitt fulle navn som brukernavn.

 

Jeg har innsett at fødselsdatoen til den jeg tidligere fant (Ole med far Peder) stemmer med Louis ’. Når jeg ser på forskjellige arkiver og poster får jeg inntrykk av at det å ta farens navn som etternavn var veldig vanlig på slutten av 1800-tallet, så jeg håpet at jeg kunne finne ham med et lignende navn - noe helt annet gjør det vanskelig å avgjøre om det er den rette personen! Det fikk meg til å lure på om alle bøkene var på nettet eller om noen fremdeles ble behandlet, og derfor var posten hans ennå ikke tilgjengelig.

 

Hvis det hjelper, er dette informasjonen vi har om ham.

 

fødselsdato - 14. oktober 1850

 

Fødested - Fredrikshald

 

Far - Peter

 

1875 - første omtale av at han var på et skip (og derfor ikke i Norge)

 

Yrke - ingeniør / matros

 

Vi har dokumentasjon på hvor han befinner seg i løpet av denne tiden

 

1887 Gift med Sarah Elizabeth Hornsby i England

 

1891 - funnet for første gang på Storbritannias folketelling

 

De fikk da barn - av interesse, er Oline et vanlig navn i Norge? Ole-oppføringen i dåpsrekorden jeg fant viser moren som Oline, og han kalte også en av døtrene det. Høres lovende ut, men kunne ha vært et veldig populært navn på slutten av 1800-tallet!

 

Han er litt av et mysterium, og all informasjon mottas sterkt.

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
51 minutes ago, Emma Hall said:

Looking at various archives and records I get the impression that taking the father’s name as the surname was very common in the late 1800s

 

Hi Emma:

 

Norwegians (except for urban elites) did not have family names (passed down from generation to generation) until the 1920s. Thus, the naming convention for most Norwegians was to use a patronym - so Ole Pedersen is literally Ole, son of Peder. Once Norwegians moved to other countries where family names were used, they then had to choose a name that got fixed - in many cases the patronym that they had when they emigrated, in other cases the name of the farm they lived on just before emigrating.

 

If Louis's father was Peder, then in Norway he would have been called Louis (or rather Ludvig) Pedersen. The Thompson would then mean that Peder was the son of a Thomas.

 

There is, of course, the complication that various names got changed when translated to English. In particular, "Louis" might be used not just for "Ludvig", but possibly also for "Lars" or "Lauritz" (which might also be anglicized to Lawrence or Larry). And I know from my own ancestry that Thompson can be not just from Thomasen, but also from Torsen.

 

So my first gut instinct would be to look for a Ludvig or Lars, son of a Peder Thomasen or Torsen, born 14 October around 1850 (in my experience, dates of birth in later records are more reliable than years of birth) somewhere either in Fredrikshald (today's Halden) or in surrounding Østfold county. So far I have looked at both baptismal records and confirmation records from Halden, without any hits. Given the number of views your initial post has received, I suspect that a number of others have also tried, also without success.

 

Just so we have more to work with - would it be possible for you to post a copy of the marriage certificate (showing both his birthdate and his father's name), as well as any other document that might indicate both his place of birth and his age? Also, given that Norwegian sailors who went to sea had to be registered (and those sailor's registries are online here), can you post the information/document showing him being at sea in 1875?

 

 

1 hour ago, Emma Hall said:

is Oline a common name in Norway

 

This may not be easy for you to read, as it is in Norwegian, but see https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oline. It is not a particularly popular name today (rank 341 among women's names in Norway now), but in 1875 it was among the top 10 women's names in Norway.

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
On 8/14/2019 at 2:41 PM, Emma Hall said:

The closest I have found is Ole with a father called Peder born 14 October 1850

 

Just so that everyone is on the same page: the birth record for this Ole is located at https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060330010569 (#96) - parents Peder Hansen (cottager) and Oline Børresdatter.

 

Per familysearch.org, this couple also had children Hans Martin (born 1845), Bolette (born 1848), Sophie (born 1853), Jorgine (born 1855), and Ludvig (born 1859).

 

The 1865 census shows just Bolette, Sophie, and Ludvig living with them in Fredrikshald: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01037979007247

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Emma Hall

Hi Carl-Henry

 

Thank you so much for your help - I didn’t expect people to help me with the actual search, I just thought I would be given some information or pointers on where to look so I really appreciate your feedback (and everyone else’s help even if they came up with nothing).

 

My mother has all of the original documents so I will ask if she can send me some pictures tomorrow to share. 

 

I will also look through the records again with some of the name suggestions you provided too as, until now, I wasn’t sure of the first name Norwegian equivalents. There’s so many variations of the Norwegian Thompson but it didn’t really occur to me he would be known as Pedersen in Norway. My mother (who has done most of the family research) and I just assumed he would have anglicised his Norwegian name and were confused as we thought he should be Pedersen as per the naming convention you described. 

 

When looking through the baptism books I was just looking for anyone with the same birthdate and a father called Peter and Ole was the only one I could find - I didn’t scroll much more a year and a half after his birth date and I suppose he could have been baptised later or not at all. 

 

Thanks again for the info, would love to find him eventually!

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Cathrin Jegersberg

Hi Emma

 

I haven't found anything in Norway yet.

 

I think this is your family?

 

England and Wales Census, 1891

 

Name: Louis Thompson
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: Durham
Parish: Monk Wearmouth
Ecclesiastical Parish: THE VENERABLE BEDE
Registration District: Sunderland
Gender: Male
Age: 40
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Sea Going Engineer
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1851
Birthplace: Norway
Page Number: 41
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 4148/ 55

 
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Louis Thompson Head M 40 Norway
Sarah E Thompson Wife F 32 Yorkshire, England
Oliver Thompson Son M 1 Durham Monkwearmouth
Eliza Hainsby   F 52 Yorkshire, England

Line Number: 10
 

Citing this Record
"England and Wales Census, 1891," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WNGX-C3Z : 7 May 2019), Eliza Hainsby in household of Louis Thompson, Monkwearmouth All Saints, Durham, England, United Kingdom; from "1891 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 12, Durham county, subdistrict, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

Name: Louis Thompson
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: Durham
Parish: Monk Wearmouth
Ecclesiastical Parish: THE VENERABLE BEDE
Registration District: Sunderland
Gender: Male
Age: 40
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Sea Going Engineer
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1851
Birthplace: Norway
Page Number: 41
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 4148/ 55


Household    Role    Sex    Age    Birthplace
Louis Thompson    Head    M    40    Norway
Sarah E Thompson    Wife    F    32    Yorkshire, England
Oliver Thompson    Son    M    1    Durham Monkwearmouth
Eliza Hainsby        F    52    Yorkshire, England

Name: Louis Thompson
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: Durham
Parish: Monk Wearmouth
Ecclesiastical Parish: THE VENERABLE BEDE
Registration District: Sunderland
Gender: Male
Age: 40
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Sea Going Engineer
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1851
Birthplace: Norway
Page Number: 41
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 4148/ 55

 
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Louis Thompson Head M 40 Norway
Sarah E Thompson Wife F 32 Yorkshire, England
Oliver Thompson Son M 1 Durham Monkwearmouth
Eliza Hainsby   F 52 Yorkshire, England

Line Number: 10
 

Citing this Record
"England and Wales Census, 1891," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WNGX-C3Z : 7 May 2019), Eliza Hainsby in household of Louis Thompson, Monkwearmouth All Saints, Durham, England, United Kingdom; from "1891 England, Scotland and Wales census," database and images, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : n.d.); citing PRO RG 12, Durham county, subdistrict, The National Archives of the UK, Kew, Surrey.

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Emma Hall

Hi Cathrin

 

Yes that’s correct. He’s also on the 1901 census - from my mum’s notes it looks as though he’s working in Grimsby, possibly on a vessel called Vernon, however that bit is pencilled in so assuming she’s not certain of the name. I am only working off her notes and not a full member of an ancestry website to send a link but I am pretty sure she’s got copies of the census documents in her files, which I would be happy to upload if she can send them across. I did profile my DNA through My Heritage in the hope I would find lots of Norwegian relatives but haven’t opted to pay for full access as yet. 

 

There was a census in USA in 1880 which I found that could be linked but we haven’t had a chance to look into that further.

 

I searched a little last night on Lauritz and found a sailor born in the same year. Date and place of birth don’t match however!

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052055077187

 

Emma

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Leif B. Mathiesen
22 minutter siden, Cathrin Jegersberg skrev:

 

A possible candidate?

Laurits Pettersen  born abt. 1851. At sea to to Punse Kola in census 1875 Fredrikstad

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052006000220

Same family in census  1865?

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037981001569

 

Edited by Leif B. Mathiesen

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/6216/31

 

 

This shows younger daughter Laura Gustava bapt. 1861 - father deceased shoemaker Laurits Julius Pettersen

 

Not very likely the family of a Louis Thompson with a father Peter/Peder?

Edited by Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

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Emma Hall

Hi all

 

As requested, I have some documents to share.

 

Marriage certificate - lists birth date and father as Peter Thompson, watchmaker (didn’t realise it listed occupation too - I will look into that further this weekend!)

 

Shipping record - showing vessels sailed on from 22 June 1875 onwards, from a company in UK.

 

An engineering certificate from 1881 showing his date and place of birth.

27F7A962-857C-4295-9330-6B05E28B0F7F.jpeg

6D6235A6-4861-43FD-99B8-E0C1FBB28FD3.jpeg

D114138E-6025-408E-B6BE-6EAF231BD006.jpeg

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

No matching Louis / Laurits / Loren[t]s listed as confirmed in Halden 1864-1867.

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen
4 minutter siden, Ragnhild K. Brænd skrev:

This watchmaker is married to Oline, and has a son called Ludvig: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01037979007247

 

 

But age 7 = born aprox. 1858 - and still no sign of Thompson (Thomassen?).

Edited by Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

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Lars Hanssen

Since he is an Engineer, he should probably be found in the registers for Norwgian seafarers at one time as well? Maybe that could clear up any confusions with regards to his surname?

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/db/browse?municipalities[]=0101&start_year=&end_year=&tags[]=197&text=

 

Someone have already pointed towards the church books from Berg as well. Since he only listed Fredrikshaldon marrigae certifiacte, I would have checked church books from Berg, Tistedal and Idd as well, as they are part of Halden/Fredrikshald today.

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Ivar Moe

One possible place to find Louis may be in the seamen's records  for Halden district. ( Halden mønstringskontor, F/Fc/Fca/L0002: Annotasjonsrulle, 1868-1875)

 

Names are recorded in the first column and birth data in the third. I would assume that his last name (surname) is Pedersen or Pettersen if his fathers given name was Peder/Peter.

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/db/contents/41967

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/41967/1?indexing=

 

There is also a possibility that his parents came from Sweden. Fredrikshald is near the border to Sweden and many Swedes came there to get a job. 

Brg

Ivar

 

Edited by Ivar Moe

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Per H Skaug

 

1 hour ago, Jon Erik Berg-Hansen said:

 

But age 7 = born aprox. 1858 - and still no sign of Thompson (Thomassen?).

 

Here is the baptismal record of Ludvig, son of watchmaker Peder Hansen and Oline. He was born 28 April 1858 and baptised 27 June in Frederikshald, In other words, the dates are off, and as Jon Erik said, nothing indicating Thompson.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/384/122

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
26 minutes ago, Per H Skaug said:

Here is the baptismal record of Ludvig, son of watchmaker Peder Hansen and Oline. He was born 28 April 1858 and baptised 27 June in Frederikshald, In other words, the dates are off, and as Jon Erik said, nothing indicating Thompson.

 

Please see entry #7 above. This same couple had a son named Ole born 14 October 1850 - exactly the right date. I could imagine that Ole could become Louie in English as well.

 

I did not find Ole Hansen with the family in the 1865 census (also referenced in entry #7 above). Is there a confirmation record for him?

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