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Emma Hall

Louis Thompson, born 1850 in Fredrikshald

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Per H Skaug
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Carl-Henry Geschwind said:

 

Please see entry #7 above. This same couple had a son named Ole born 14 October 1850 - exactly the right date. I could imagine that Ole could become Louie in English as well.

 

I did not find Ole Hansen with the family in the 1865 census (also referenced in entry #7 above). Is there a confirmation record for him?

Carl-Henry,

 

here is Ole Hansen's confirmation record, from 26 March 1865. In other words, he was confirmed when the census in 1865 was taken, and could therefore have gone to sea and been away when the census was taken.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/384/270

 

So we have an Ole Hansen, born on the same date as Louis Thompson in Frederikshald (and this Ole has a brother Ludvig), who is son of a watchmaker Peter (Hansen, not Thompson). While it is probably still too early to conclude, maybe it would be worthwhile to look further at Peder Hansen, and whether there is any connection to the name Thompson or similar in his background?

Edited by Per H Skaug
Possible conjecture

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Ivar Moe
Posted (edited)
1 time siden, Per H Skaug skrev:

Carl-Henry,

 

here is Ole Hansen's confirmation record, from 26 March 1865. In other words, he was confirmed when the census in 1865 was taken, and could therefore have gone to sea and been away when the census was taken.

 

image.thumb.png.64829a5f2bcc85306a661d99cf6b6374.png

 

image.png.6fd609de5a9471f0ef81d137f7305fb6.png

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/41966/221?indexing=

Edited by Ivar Moe

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Carl-Henry Geschwind

Ole Hansen's father, former watchmaker Peder Hansen (born in Berg in 1822), was still alive in 1910: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01036333006789. He died 2 March 1916 (called Fhv. Uhrmager Per Hansen Laaby, born 1820 in Berg): https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329041045, #16 in top half. See also Dødsfallsprotokoll: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090520321000, #31. Unfortunately, he was living in an old-folks home and poor, so no record of any heirs or probate.

 

Therefore, no confirmation from this that he had a son who now called himself Louie Thompson.

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ivar Moe said:

 

 

image.png.6fd609de5a9471f0ef81d137f7305fb6.png

 

Ivar above has shown excerpts from the Annotasjonsrulle, 1860-1868. There is further information from the Annotasjonsrulle, 1868-1875, s. 170:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ru20090407640171

 

This information (which I'm afraid I don't know how to copy and paste) has an annotation dated 9 May 1878 that I read as something like "Farer som Maskinist fra England med Dampskib Symjia/Nympia [?]".  If you look back at the British sailor's certificate that Emma had in post #16, it says that, from 22 June 1875 to 19 April 1878, he worked on the ship Nymphaea out of North Shields (the port city of Newcastle, England).

 

I believe this is strong evidence that Ole Hansen is our man. The only discrepancy is the name Hansen rather than Thompson - but I think, in English, "Hansen" and "Thompson" sound relatively similar.

 

To summarize: Ole Hansen was born 14 Oct 1850 (right date) in Fredrikshald (right place) to watchmaker Peder (right job and name) Hansen (wrong name, but sounds similar in English to Thompson). He went to sea in August 1868 and by November 1868 was recorded as sailing abroad. In 1878 he was a machinist (right job) out of England (right country) working on a ship called something like Nympia (close enough to Nymphaea, so right ship).

 

 

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Per H Skaug
Posted (edited)

From the date at the census in 1910 that Carl=Henry posted, "our" Peter Hansen was born 4/4 1822 in Berg.

 

Here is his baptism record, number 12 who is the son of Hans Hansen and Randi Pedersdatter  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/7429/81707/62

 

In other words, there is still no connection to the name Thompson, but otherwise, it is a very compelling case laid out for why Ole Petersen/Hansen is the same as Louis Thompson.

Edited by Per H Skaug
Correction for father

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Ivar Moe said:

Maybe we can find something about the ship "Nymphs" via this base, but I have no time to look now. If anyone wants to check it out it's fine.

 

Steamship Nymphaea, built 1871, operated out of North Shields, stranded and lost 5 Jan 1881: https://crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum/65410

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Lars Hanssen said:

Followed the links provided by Ivar above. Looks like there is a Louis Thompson on board i 1881 as well, but then listed as born in Fredrikstad

 

That's the same guy - the sailing list provided in post #16 shows that our Louie Thompson was a 2nd engineer until 1881, which is what this Louis Thompson is. Whoever took that crew list in 1881 probably got Fredrikstad and Fredrikhald confused.

 

This also shows that Louie was on board when the ship wrecked off Harwich on 5 Jan 1881 - he obviously survived.

 

And here he is on the 1881 crew list for the Stephanotis, on which he served after the Nymphaea sank (Louis Thompson, age 31, born Fredrikshald): https://www.mun.ca/mha/1881/onview.php?Record_ID=218109& CrewListPage=2&page=2, #13

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Jon Erik Berg-Hansen

Amazing what you guys have managed to uncover!

His age (30) confirms previously given info.

 

Still    #29:  Hansen (wrong name, but sounds similar in English to Thompson) - I'm not convinced about that!

 

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Jon Erik Berg-Hansen said:

I'm not convinced about that!

 

Yeah, I think at this point it will take DNA evidence to nail the proof - if Emma Hall's autosomal DNA test reveals a relationship with any other descendant of Peder Hansen and Oline Børresdatter, then we will know for sure we have the right person.

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Lars Hanssen
Posted (edited)

Emma: You have any information about when he passed away?

Edited by Lars Hanssen

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Emma Hall

Hi all 

 

Wow - I am sorry I have been at a work leaving event and haven’t able to look at all of these responses until now. I am amazed at the help I have received from everyone! Genuinely shocked at how much people have researched for me.

 

All I I know is he died in 1902 - 2 October. My mother very likely has his death certificate which is likely to have detail more. As far as I am aware we haven’t seen the article he was assaulted but we are aware of his sea records. My mum will also be extremely grateful for the responses - this line has been an absolute blackout until now - I did even begin to wonder if he was even Norwegian at all!

 

Emma

 

 

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Ivar Moe
Posted (edited)

 

12 timer siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

Steamship Nymphaea, built 1871, operated out of North Shields, stranded and lost 5 Jan 1881: https://crewlist.org.uk/data/vesselsnum/65410

 

https://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?164352

On January 5th, 1881, the British iron cargo ship NYMPHAEA, built in 1871 by Iliff. Mounsey & Co. and owned by Stag Lines Ltd., on voyage from North Shields to Athens with 1500 tons of coals, was wrecked in fog and bad weather on the east side of the Northern Spit of the Sunk Sand (the Sunk Light bearing N.E., and the Gunfleet N.W.) The crew went for the boat and reached an anchored steamer.

Note: in the same event, 3 hours later, the fully rigged ship INDIAN CHIEF was wrecked east of to the NYMPHAEA, on Long Sand.

 

Vleggeert Nico 15/09/2011. Nymphaea was wrecked on Sunk Sand, while on a voyage from the Tyne to Piraeus with a cargo of coal.

 

The merchant shipping acts 1854 - 1876

NYMPHAEA

https://www.wrecksite.eu/docBrowser.aspx?5489?7?1

Edited by Ivar Moe

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Per H Skaug
Posted (edited)

Emma,

 

On Family Search I have found a seemingly related family.

 

Ludvig Petersen, born 23 June 1859 in Halden https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/GSKK-489 is stated as the father of Thomas Jewitt Hansen, born 18 Dec 1895 in Northumberland. There is no source for why this Ludvig Pedersen should be the father of Thomas Jewitt Hansen, so there may be some family tradition or notes which is the reason why Ludvig is identified as Thomas' father.

 

In the Census for 1911, Thomas is seen as the son of Elizabeth Ann Hansen, with siblings Amy Olive Hansen (possibly Amy Oline Hansen), Irene May Hansen and Philip Randolph Hansen (this census is the only source listed on FamilySearch for this family). Unless this is a mix-up with the son of Louis Thompson (aka Ole Hansen/Pedersen) it appears that the apparent brothers Ole Hansen/Pedersen and Ludvig Pedersen both married and left descendants in the UK.

There are apparent UK Hansen descendants who have entered information on FamilySearch, so it may be worthwhile contacting Philippa Hansen who is the source for the entries. She may be a descendant, and her branch of the family may possibly be sitting on information that could confirm that these are two branches of the same family. It seems unlikely that two brothers from Halden should both end up in the UK without knowing about each other (provided, of course, that the identifications are correct).

 

So it may be possible to corroborate the conjectured identification of Louis Thompson with information about his assumed brother Ludvig Pedersen/Hansen. If no documentation exists that could support this theory it may be possibe to confirm (or not) the relationship by taking a DNA test on someone from their branch, since you have already taken a DNA test.

Edited by Per H Skaug
Added comment on DNA test

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Per H Skaug said:

In the Census for 1911, Thomas is seen as the son of Elizabeth Ann Hansen, with siblings Amy Olive Hansen, Irene May Hansen and Philip Randolph Hansen (this census is the only source listed on FamilySearch for this family).

 

What is more, according to the 1911 census Elizabeth Ann Hansen and her first three children were born in North Shields - exactly the same town in which Ole Hansen/Louis Thompson was based.

 

In ancestry.com there is the 1899 naturalization record for seaman "Louis Hansen" [i.e., Ludvig Pedersen Hansen]: https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=UKNatCertDec&indiv=try&h=28266. It shows that Louis Hansen was born in Fredrikshald to Peter and Oline Hansen, is about 40 years old (i.e., born 1859), and has three children, Amy Olive, James Udall, and Thomas Jewitt. So yes, this family in North Shields is definitely related to our Ole Hansen (who we think is Louis Thompson) - and this means that, if Emma is descended from Ole Hansen, she should have DNA hits with the descendants of Louis and his wife Elizabeth Ann Hansen.

Edited by Carl-Henry Geschwind

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Egil Johannessen
3 minutter siden, Carl-Henry Geschwind skrev:

In ancestry.com there is the 1899 naturalization record for "Louis Hansen" [i.e., Ludvig Pedersen Hansen]: https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?viewrecord=1&r=an&db=UKNatCertDec&indiv=try&h=28266. It shows that Louis Hansen was born in Fredrikshald to Peter and Oline Hansen, is about 40 years old (i.e., born 1859), and has three children, Amy Olive [sic], James Udall, and Thomas Jewitt.

 

For those not members of Ancestry:

 

The UK, Naturalisation Certificates and Declarations, 1870-1916
Name:    Louis Hansen
Gender:    Male
Relationship:    Self (Head)
Record Type:    Certificate
Birth Date:    abt 1859
Birth Place:    Frederikshild
Residence Year:    1899
Residence Place:    Forest Gate, London, England
Father:    Peter Hansen
Mother:    Olive Hansen
Child:    Amy Olive Hansen 
John Udall Hansen 
Thomas Jewitt Hansen

Nat_Louis Hansen (1).jpg

Nat_Louis Hansen_II.jpg

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Ivar Moe
Posted (edited)

Kan det være "vår" Louis Hansen som dør i 1937 iLondon ?

 

Navn Louis Hansen
 
Dødsdato jan-feb-mar 1937
Dødssted
  Greenwich, London, England
Fødselsdato Ca. 1859
Alder 78
Utgave 1D
side

1137

 

 

https://www.myheritage.no/research/collection-10444/england-wales-dods-register-1837-2005?s=289878591&itemId=61286911-&action=showRecord&recordTitle=Louis+Hansen

Edited by Ivar Moe

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Egil Johannessen
På 16.8.2019 den 17.17, Per H Skaug skrev:

Here is the baptismal record of Ludvig, son of watchmaker Peder Hansen and Oline. He was born 28 April 1858 and baptised 27 June in Frederikshald, In other words, the dates are off, and as Jon Erik said, nothing indicating Thompson.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/384/122

 

The UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
Name:    Louis Hansen
Estimated Age:    31
Birth Date:    1858
Birth Place:    Fredrikshald, Norway
Issue Date:    2 Feb 1889
Issue Port:    North Shields
Certificate Number:    012799

Maters & Mates LH.jpg

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Egil Johannessen
7 minutter siden, Ivar Moe skrev:

Kan det være "vår" Louis Hansen som dør i 1937 iLondon ?

 

Navn Louis Hansen
 
Dødsdato jan-feb-mar 1937
Dødssted
  Greenwich, London, England
Fødselsdato Ca. 1859
Alder 78
Utgave 1D
side

1137

 

Det er nok rett mann - enken var Elizabeth Ann Hansen

 

The England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name:    Louis Hansen
Death Date:    15 Feb 1937
Death Place:    Kent, England
Probate Date:    25 Mar 1937
Probate Registry:    London, England

1937_LH.jpg

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Emma Hall
Posted (edited)

Hi 

 

I have been waiting to reply to this thread to see if I had any success in looking over some of the record links I was sent (especially the sailor records) as well as searching the MyHeritage site DNA matches in Norway. A lot of my DNA matches do have ancestral name matches to Hansen however, that said, I also have matches with Pedersen and variants on Thompson - I haven't specifically been able to find Ole or his parents in any of my searches / matches' DNA. 

 

I find the links to Ludvig really interesting and, whilst I hope that Ole is Louis so we might be able to determine who he is (!), something isn't sitting quite right for me. I am sure when we have discussed Louis before my mother said his close family were definitely not aware of relations and if the brothers were based in the same region then you would have thought they would have been close (in terms of relationship rather than just proximity!). And it seems strange to me that the two brothers would choose the same anglicised name? 

 

I had a very short exchange with my mum yesterday which started with "I don't want to burst your bubble..." (I was very hopefully when I texted her what you had been posting), she has said that the newspaper article referencing Louis Thompson being assaulted near Cape Horn can't be our Louis Thompson as she has records of him sailing on the Stephanotis between Gibraltar and Rouen. I fear there was two Norwegian Louis Thompsons sailing about!

 

That said I am very excited to look up the UK Hansens either way we might know one way or another whether Ole is Louis. If he isn't then it might be back to square one!

 

I know I keep saying this but I really appreciate how much help I am receiving. 

Edited by Emma Hall

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Carl-Henry Geschwind
8 minutes ago, Emma Hall said:

she has said that the newspaper article referencing Louis Thompson being assaulted near Cape Horn can't be our Louis Thompson as she has records of him sailing on the Stephanotis between Gibraltar and Rouen. I fear there was two Norwegian Louis Thompsons sailing about!

 

I believe this is right - your ancestor Louis Thompson was an engineer/machinist on steam ships, while the Louis Thompson who was assaulted was setting sails on a sailing ship.

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Per H Skaug

Here is probably Louis Hansen in the census in 1911, where he is a master in Sunderland https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCW-938?treeref=GSKK-489

This explains why he was not home with his family during that census.

 

Here is his marriage to (i believe) Elizabeth Ann Udall in 1890 in Tynemouth, Northumberland. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2D8S-MCD?treeref=GSKK-489

 

II agree that it is odd that both brothers would choose the same name Louis, but that may of course also be the explanation why they chose different last names? Of course, whether there are 2 Norwegian Louis Thompsons sailing about, may not necessarily mean that Louis Thompson and Louis Hansen cannot be brothers.

It would be interesting to compare the DNA of the Louis Hansen line with the Louis Thompson line. That should confirm this theory one way or the other (since Louis Hansen has pretty firmly been established as Ludvig Petersen/Hansen from Frederikshald).

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Emma Hall
1 minute ago, Carl-Henry Geschwind said:

 

I believe this is right - your ancestor Louis Thompson was an engineer/machinist on steam ships, while the Louis Thompson who was assaulted was setting sails on a sailing ship.

 

Thanks - I hadn't thought of that!

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