Translation assistance

[Mark Goddard]

Anne-Lise

In reference to your Post #8 on Karen (Karn) Tostensdatter:

The baptism record looks good (even though I can't really read the entries 🙂

Then you provided a link to a Family Search record that just raises more questions because, though all the kids listed have Tosten and  Lisbet as the parents, all the kids last name is spelled Torstensen (regardless of gender).

A few people have listed a Tosten and different Lisbet as Karen's parents on Ancestry, but those have to be wrong because they have Lisbets birthday at only 9 years before Karens birth.

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

På 9.3.2020 den 21.30, Anne-Lise Hansen skrev:

Karen (Karn) Tostensdtr servant at the farm Langsveen in 1865:

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01038063000349

 

Karen’s baptism: 

 

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1842, Side 4
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630516
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630516

No. 60 - bottom left page

 

Parents:

Tosten Jensen and Lisbeth Amundsdtr. living at Klokkerstuen.

Sponsors: Even Li, Knud Li, ....? Klokkerstuen, Sigrid Øvremoen, Sigrid Skjönsberg.
 

‘Parent search’ at FamilySearch shows more children:

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?father_givenname=Tosten&father_surname=Jensen&mother_givenname=Lisbet&record_country=Norway&count=20

 

(from entry #8)

 

FamilySearch:

 

Karen Torstensen  b. 1842

Olia Torstensen. b. 1844

Amund Torstensen  b. 1846

Johanne Torstensen  b. 1849

Ole Torstensen  b. 1853

Sigrid Torstensen  b. 1855

 

These baptisms must be checked in the church books. (See next entry,)

 

We are quite used to the fact that the names are listed this way by Americans. (So called SMART matches in MyHeritage multiplies these errors)  Even worse when (in online family threes) the mother in the family is listed as  Mrs. + the father’s patronymicon in times this was not used in Norway.

 

I do not subscribe and cannot access threes in Ancestry.

 

Endret Mars 24, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Parents are Tosten Jensen and Lisbet Amundsdtr.

 

Karen’s baptism 1842 July 31, b. July 21.

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1842, Side 4
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630516
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630516

(No. 60 - bottom left page) The family lives at Klokkerstuen. 

 

Olia’s baptism April 22, 1844, b. April 13. or 15.

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1844, Side 14
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630526
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630526

(No. 39) The family lives at the Vicarage

 

Amund’s baptism 1847 November 8, b. October 27.
Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1847, Side 28
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630540
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630540

(No. 97) Same address - Øyer Vicarage

 

Johanne’s baptism 1849 December 2, b. November 12.

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1849, Side 47
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630559
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630559

(No. 105) The address is Klokkerstuen. 

 

Ole’s baptism 1853 February 3, b. January 15.

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1853, Side 73
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630586
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630586

(No. 13) The address is the Vicarage ( = Prestegaarden)
 

Sigrid’s baptism 1855 November 4, b. September 23.

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Fødte og døpte 1855, Side 103
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131630616
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131630616

(No. 121) Address is the Vicarage.

 

 

‘Klokkerstuen’ is where the sacristan lived. 

Endret Mars 24, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Mark Goddard]

Wow... how did I get so lucky to find you  🙂

 

So you have "Parents are Tosten Jensen and Lisbet Amundsdtr."  which is what I have in my ancestry tree.  I've tried zooming in on the baptism records to see if I can get a clue on spellings or something that helps me learn more about them, but of course I struggle with both the script and the language.

 

I found some old photos from just after 1900 of the Tretten Kirke and new photos since it's restoration in 2016, along with some history of it from the 1700's    What a lovely place that I wish I might visit some day....

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

In Karen’s baptism the parents names are written Tosten Jensen and Lisbet Am. Klokkerstuen.

[Anton Hagelee]

On 3/24/2020 at 4:40 PM, Anne-Lise Hansen said:

These baptisms must be checked in the church books. (See next entry,)

 

We are quite used to the fact that the names are listed this way by Americans. (So called SMART matches in MyHeritage multiplies these errors)  Even worse when (in online family threes) the mother in the family is listed as  Mrs. + the father’s patronymicon in times this was not used in Norway.

 

I do not subscribe and cannot access threes in Ancestry.

 

 

Anne-Lise Hansen is so correct that you must try as best you can to use the parish records to establish correct dates and names. I do subscribe to Ancestry and while the trees on Ancestry can sometimes be used as a guide to help you search for the original records there are often mistakes in the names and dates found in Ancestry not to mention whole sections of family trees completely wrong. 

 

And yes you are very lucky to have Anne-Lise helping you with your search. 

[Mark Goddard]

Indeed I am Anton!  She has provided such valuable information that I have been able to "clean up" so many errors passed through Ancestry.  I've even written to a couple other people with corrections to give their trees more accuracy.  There is always this drive to push to the next generation further back (it becomes like an obsession) but I remind myself to keep going back to individuals I have already tracked and refine the accuracy of their life, and delve into their actual lives, what life was like, who they really were.

Mark

[Mark Goddard]

If Tosten and Lisbet had all those kids from 1846 to 1855 and they lived in Tretten (living at Klokkerstuen) would they be in the 1850 census?

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

In the 1865 Census I can only find these three siblings:

 

Karen: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038063000349

 

Olia: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038063000750

 

Ole: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01038063001496

 

I have not found their parents.

 

Sigrid Tostensdtr dies 2 months old 1855 November 23:

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 5 (1842-1857), Døde og begravede 1856, Side 285
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131640076
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131640076

(no. 56)
 

 

Lisbet Amundsdtr dies 1862 July 26, buried August 4 from Øyer  Vicarage:

Oppland fylke, Øyer, Tretten i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 6 (1858-1874), Døde og begravede 1862, Side 267
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070131640445
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070131640445

(No. 40)
 

Endret Mars 27, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Mark Goddard]

Again, my thanks Anne-Lise.  It's really quite amazing looking at the census... all Lisbet's kids living with other families as servants.  What a hard life it must have been.  And from other documents I've read about those times, it's pretty clear why so many took the chance of a strange country called America.  And then coming here to such a hard farming life.  But in conversations with the old timers, they all say they didn't regret leaving Norway, because even though starting a life here was hard and far far from home, life back home had been harder.

[Mark Goddard]

I searched through the MyHeritage site for Tosten Jensen and this is the only one I could find that was about the right age (around Oyer).  This would make him about 37 when he married Lisbet.  Of course, he could have come from anywhere....  

 

Name	Tosten Jensen
Gender	Male
Birth	June 23 1804
Christening	June 24 1804   Oyer, Opland, Norway
Father	Jens Kielgaard
Mother	Sigrie
Indexing Project (Batch) Number	C42045-1
System Origin	Norway-ODM
GS Film number	125545

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Yes, that may be him.

 

 

Tosten Jensen and Lisbet Amundsdtr.’s marriage in 1841 November 26:

 

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 4 (1824-1841), Viede 1841, Side 605-606
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070603620040
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603620040

(No. 21) 
 

He is 37,5 years old and she is 30. That would make his birth year about 1804, and hers about 1811.

 

The column heading is: 

The groom’s birth place and current address and the bride’s birth place:

 

Kjølgaard ved Øiers Præstegaard

Lie

 

I understand that he is born at the farm Kjoelgaard near Øyer Vicarage (or is now living at the Vicarage) and she is born at the farm Lie.

 

 

«Father

Jens Kielgaard» that you found, must be the same farm as Kjølgaard.

 

Tosten’s baptism in the church book:

 

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 3 (1784-1824), Kronologisk liste 1804, Side 242-243
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070603610103
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603610103

(Second from the top.)

 

Endret Mars 27, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Mark Goddard]

Excellent!  I forgot that the marriage record might have had their age or some other clue.   That Tosten was a hard fella to find!!!   So his father was Jens Kielgaard, his mother Sigrie, and I might have found  he had two sisters Marie and Anne

 

Just as a point of interest, the further back in time I go with my searches I notice a LOT more results show people from Denmark.  Was there a lot of immigration back then?

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Lisbet was born 1811 December 28 and baptized 1812 January 1:

 

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 3 (1784-1824), Kronologisk liste 1812, Side 346-347
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070603610156
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603610156

 

First bapt. in 1812 - New Years Day (Festum Circumcisionis Domini / Novi Anni)

 

Endret Mars 27, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Mark Goddard]

Oh my... how about this?   https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/MXP7-5CF    Are there any records that would confirm this?

 

And I have to ask, what do you do in Oslo besides being bothered with my endless questions.    And now you just found Lisbet birth record... how do you do that so fast???

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Norway was ruled by Denmark from 1537 to 1814. The king’s officials in Norway were Danish, and most of the clergy.

 

https://snl.no/Norge_under_dansk_styre_-_1537-1814

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

😊 Well, just now, most Norwegians are stuck at home due to the world wide pandemic in order not to spread this virus, but that does not differ much from life before Corona, cause I ‘m retired. 🙂

 

 

12 minutter siden, Mark Goddard skrev:

Oh my... how about this?   https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/MXP7-5CF    Are there any records that would confirm this?

(...)

 

Lucky! I assume the person (s) that made this family three have found the sources in the church books? 

 

(Are you aware of the way you can find the correct church book in FamilySearch? Copy the film/fiche number into Catalog (in the top menu) and the books in that catalog will come up.)

[Mark Goddard]

I have a child care center and we are deemed "essential" so we are open and I'm at work.  Fortunately there have only been 5 cases reported in our county but it is a little scary keeping a business like this open during these times.  We do have some strict protocols however...

 

I see the Catalog link under Searches in the top menu, but I don't see what the fiche number is or where I find that

[Anton Hagelee]

The fiche number is not in the tree but in the section Search Results from Historical Records. 

at the bottom of the record will usually be a number. That is the number you put into the catalog. Ancestry.com records also can have that number and you can copy that number and put it into the Family Search Catalog and more easily find the record. That is very useful for baptism records in the city of Oslo as there are many churches in the city and the Ancestry record many times will not tell you which church  has the record. 

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

You’ll find the Film/fiche number under Document information to the right.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VWGX-SJ5

 

Document Information:

GS Film Number	125545

Citing this Record

"Norway Baptisms, 1634-1927", database, FamilySearch( https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VWGX-SJ5 : 21 February 2020), Tosten Jensen, 1804. 

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog

Then press film/fiche number

and paste the number you’ve copied

 

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&query=%2Bfilm_number%3A125545

 

This is especially useful for sources in the cities, Oslo, Bergen etc.

 

 

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Sources in the family three:

 

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/MXP7-5CF

 

Jens Bagstad = Jens Kielgaard = Jens Christensen (Xstensen)

 

The marriage:

 

Name: Jens Xstensen
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 Nov 1792
Event Place: Øyer, Oppland, Norway
Event Place (Original): Oyer, Opland, Norway
Gender: Male
Spouse's Name: Sigrie Larsdr
Spouse's Gender: Female

GS Film Number: 125545
 

Citing this Record
"Norway Marriages, 1660-1926", database, FamilySearch ( https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWCF-6YP : 20 February 2020), Sigrie Larsdr in entry for Jens Xstensen, 1792. 

 

The marriage in the church book:

 

They were engaged 1792 October 19 and wed November 9.

 

Oppland fylke, Tretten, Øyer i Øyer, Ministerialbok nr. 3 (1784-1824), Kronologisk liste 1792, Side 94-95
Permanent bilde-ID: kb20070603610029
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603610029

(Left column)

Endret Mars 28, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Mark Goddard]

Thank you both!!!   New skills... 🙂

It's Friday night here, and time to head home to my family.    Both of you stay safe.  I am so grateful....

Mark

[Anton Hagelee]

Looking at the tree you posted from Family Search, you as usual do not see any sources. But you can use the tree to guide your search for the sources. For example for 

 

Jens Christian and Sigri Larsdatter shown as married in the tree. They are both born before 1801 so you should be able to find them in the 1801 Census. 

 

Looking up Sigri Larsdatter in the main Digitalarkivet search page under Census 1801, Oppland Øyer gives you four names. The one with the farm Bagstad would seem the most promising. And you get . 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058255000063

 

As an added bonus you get a record for the father of Sigri, Lars Engebretsen. He is also at Bagstad in 1801 age 66 and birth year of 1735. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058255000060

 

Endret Mars 28, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Here you have Sigri and Jens, Sigri’s parents, a sister and two brothes. 🙂

Endret Mars 28, 2020 av Anne-Lise Hansen

[Anton Hagelee]

Now to push back in time it gets a little harder. Using Ancestry.com I try to find the marriage of Lars and Sigri, Ancestry made it a little harder than necessary by transcribing the record as . 

 

Lars Immertsen

 in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

Name:Lars Immertsen

Gender:Male

Marriage Date:15 jul 1757

Marriage Place:Oyer ,Opland,Norway

Spouse:Ragnild Tostensdr

FHL Film Number:125545

 

Go to look this up in the original records and you find that you must use the Chronological list (kr) and go to year 1757. There on page 128-129 you see several columns since all the records are jammed together on each page. The first column contains the marriages. At the very bottom far left column you will find the original marriage record. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603600572

Endret Mars 28, 2020 av Anton Hagelee