Help requested with a marriage record - place names

[Kathleen Love]

Right page, second from top.

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9658/181

 

Where where Peder Hanssøn and Johanna Pedersdatter from?

 

Thank you again.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

"Peder Hansøn Viultisægn af Fronæss Meenighed

med Piigen Johanna Peders Datter her af Sognet"

 

"Menighed" = "sogn" =congregation, (sub)parish,

"her af sognet" : from this (sub)parish

 

Endret September 17, 2021 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Matthias Kolberg]

2 hours ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

"Peder Hansøn Viultisægn af Fronæss Meenighed

 

There is no parish in Norway called Fronæss, and the "F" looks more like "T" in my opinion.

There are also several others on the same page who are also from Tronæss, which suggests that Tronæss is close by, and indeed, Trondenes parish is just across the fjord from Ibestad.

There is a farm called Kulseng in Trondenes, and I believe Peder’s last name should be interpreted as Kultisægn which is an alternative spelling of Kulseng

Endret September 17, 2021 av Matthias Kolberg

[Matthias Kolberg]

According to the local farm history book (see below)

https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2012012708084?page=134

Peder Hansen Kulseng had two wives, Ane Marie Olsdatter and Ane Korneliusdatter. Ane Marie died in 1787.
 

Peder married Anne Corneliusdatter (Carolisdatter) September 16, 1791,

Top, right page

SATØ, Trondenes sokneprestkontor, H/Ha/L0003kirke: Parish register (official) no. 3, 1783-1803, p. 240-241
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070601640242
(they baptized a son, Cornelis, a few weeks later on the same page)

 

Anne Corneliusdatter was Peder’s third wife according to the 1801 census

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058493000945

 

 

Endret September 17, 2021 av Matthias Kolberg

[Matthias Kolberg]

Johanne Pedersdatter Kulseng, 42 years old, was buried on August 15, 1790 (Dom 11 post trinitatis), top right

 

SATØ, Trondenes sokneprestkontor, H/Hb/L0001klokker: Parish register (copy) no. 1, 1779-1794, p. 89
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070601650395
 

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you Matthias! This is what I am trying to prove!  The Trondenes bygdebok says my distant cousin Johanna Pedersdatter (born Nordvik) died at Kulseng, 1790. I have that matching  burial record.

So I found Peder Hansen Kulseng in a newer third marriage on the 1801 census. The dates correspond well with death of first wife, marriage to third.

But nothing in Trondenes. It seemed unlikely they would marry in Ibestad, but I don't know the geography. Johanna Pedersdatter Kulseng appears suddenly as a fadder at a christening in 1788 or 1789. And dies.

 

If you have easy access to the Trondenes bok, would you be willing to look up some things?

Gratefully, K

 

[Matthias Kolberg]

The Trondenes book is available online from the National Library for anyone with a Norwegian IP address (link above), so you can post any questions you have in this forum.

[Matthias Kolberg]

Regarding Johanna Pedersdatter, the one who married Peder Hansen Kulseng was said to come from Ibestad.

 

There is another Johanna Pedersdatter from Nordvik in Trondenes who was married to Edis Rasmussen at Harbakken.

She was born 1741 and died 1773

Here from page 307

 

Endret September 17, 2021 av Matthias Kolberg

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you again. I am pretty new to this. Please, how did you find all this information so fast?

 

I have seen the Johanna who died 1773. So which bygdebok to believe?

I have this one page about her father, Peder Iversen Nordvik, that I was relying on, from Folk og Slekt I Gamle Trondenes, (Attached, binder 1) His first marriage, left column; second marriage right column.

His wives' names never appear in the parish books. Children are born, most die; presumably the first wife dies and he remarries but I have found no records.

Peder is also linked in another source to another wife, a Guri Lukkasdatter from Nordvik.  I have his skifte in 1787; if Johanna survived him she is not named, only second wife and two of her daughters. I wondered if his death in '87 made it necessary for her to marry soon.

If the Kulseng woman was from Ibestad it would make sense they married there. Is it likely that a couple, both from Trondenes would marry in another parish?

Thank you for an educated opinion.

[Matthias Kolberg]

I found the other Johanna after a random text search for "Nordvik" in the Trondenes bygdebok and spotted the name Johanna Pedersdtr Nordvik.

I checked the burial in 1773 in the church book, which confirms that this Johanna died at Harebacken 32 years old, which fits the description of Edis Rasmussen Harbakkens wife.

 

Right page, center, 2nd Sunday after Easter 1773, that is April 25:

SATØ, Trondenes sokneprestkontor, H/Ha/L0001kirke: Parish register (official) no. 1, 1744-1777, p. 208
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070601630581
 

Edias Rasmussen and Johanna Pedersdatter married on November 10, 1771, in Trondenes. Right side, top:

SATØ, Trondenes sokneprestkontor, H/Ha/L0001kirke: Parish register (official) no. 1, 1744-1777, p. 199
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070601630572
 

 

Since we have already seen that Peder Hansen Kulseng married the Ibestad local girl, Johanna Pedersdatter, in 1788, and that the Johanna who died at Kulseng in 1790 was 42 years old, born about 1748, I am reasonably sure that the information given in "Folk og slekt …" must be wrong.

 

The tradition says that the marriage should take place in the church of the bride. You would not expect Johanna Pedersdatter Nordvik to be married in Ibestad as long as her parents were still living in Nordvik in Trondenes.

Endret September 17, 2021 av Matthias Kolberg

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you, I am convinced.

Could you try another one? Is there a book for Tromsø? I have a mystery there, 1750-1765.

It is Balsfjord Prestegjeld, but before it was its own parish so I don't think it is in the Balsfjord bok. I am searching for the origins of Willum Olsen Malangseidet, b. circa 1715, birth place in question, died Malangseidet, Balsfjord 1763. I have his children, death, skifte.  Marriage date and place unknown. It is believed by others that the couple came to Troms from Saltdal, Nordland, but the facts in that are conflating two different Willum Olsens, one born 1699 and one 1717.  (These two have very few sources, are mostly known from Saltdal: Gård og Slekt.) Long story. His wife's origins are equally murky.

Skifte is at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/25021/202.

Thank you very much

[Matthias Kolberg]

I am afraid I can’t be of much help with Willum. 
 

The Balsfjord/Malangseidet bygdebok from 1981 claims he came from Øvre Drageid in Saltdal, possibly of sami origin, but the source of this information is not clearly given. Page 231

https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2013091838099?page=241

 

 

 

 

Endret September 18, 2021 av Matthias Kolberg

[Matthias Kolberg]

To complete the story about Johanne Pedersdatter from Ibestad, I think I have found her confirmation in Ibestad in 1767, 20 years old. No 4, top right:

 

SATØ, Ibestad sokneprestembete, H/Ha/Haa/L0002kirke: Parish register (official) no. 2, 1751-1775, p. 542-543
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070604630541
She lived at Bolla, which is north of Ibestad church on the island of Rolla.

 

She can be found at Ytterbolle (Outer Bolla) in the 1765 tax report, bottom right, along with what appears to be her sister Andrina Pedersdatter, and possible father Peder Sørensen

RA, Rentekammeret inntil 1814, Realistisk ordnet avdeling, Ol/L0022b: [Gg 10]: Ekstraskatten, 23.09.1762. Senja og Troms, 1765-1768, p. 4
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/rk10051201090006

[Leif Johannessen]

Willum Olsen and Malena Jansdatter married in Saltdal in 1747: SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Nordland, 847/L0662: Ministerialbok nr. 847A02, 1735-1749, s. 115
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20071119650015

 

Willum Olsen heir in a probate in 1762, living in "Tromsen": SAT, Salten sorenskriveri, 3/3A/L0014: Skifteprotokoll 8a, 1762-1767, s. 139b-140a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090226680398

 

I think you should place such a question in "Brukernes eget forum".

[Ivar Kristensen]

Matthias, det som står i den bygdeboka er feil. Se denne diskusjonen: Willum Olsen - Ang. Willum Olsen (geni.com) 

Endret September 18, 2021 av Ivar Kristensen

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you all for the input. I am sorry if I am posting to the wrong forum.

 

If the Ovre-Drageid origin is correct, that tells me who our Willum is. The one b. 1717 to Ole Hellisen and Botil Willumsdatter, raised by Hellisen uncles at Nordnes after parents deaths 1729-1730. Thank you for that skifte, Leif Johannessen.

 

I am using Google translate to go through the Geni forum.  So I may misunderstand some things! It appears others have raised all the same issues I have. 

 

Below is a clip from the Rokland entry in gård og slekt - most of what I know about Wm Olsen Storalmenningen. Elisabeth Helgesdr. was my 7th great grandmother and the great-grandmother of the above Johanna Pedersdatter Nordvik.

Notice also this clip makes Malena Jansdatter too old to have a child in 1763. She remains a mystery.

 

I see Willum Olsen Storalmenningen in the Trom's bailiffs office in gård og slekt. (And I found him mentioned in a skifte, 1744, Bødø at

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/24938/199, left page bottom. No, I can't read it - he is doing something with the estate, right?)

But it doesn't say there that he settled at Malangseidet.

Ivar Kristensen, you wrote "Da stemmer det som står i Saltdal gård og slekt. Den Willum Olsen som kom til Malangen kom fra Storalmenningen og var sønn av Ole Nilsen og Øllegård Isaksdatter. "  Please, can you paste or link where it is this explicit?

 

Thank you again.

 

 

 

[Leif Johannessen]

15 timer siden, Ivar Kristensen skrev:

Matthias, det som står i den bygdeboka er feil. Se denne diskusjonen: Willum Olsen - Ang. Willum Olsen (geni.com) 

Jeg forstår det er konkludert slik det fremgår av Geni nå, men likevel:

 

Ole Nielsen Almenningens sønn Willum er oppgitt å være 2 år i manntallet 1701. RA, Manntallet 1701, nr. 17: Salten fogderi, 1701, s. 88-89
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ft10041010284055

 

Om det er han som har flyttet til Troms, må han ha vært rundt 50 år da det skjedde. Ut fra datidens målestokk synes jeg det er en høy alder for en slik hendelse.

 

I skiftet etter Willum Olsen Drags mor Bottel Willumsdatter, er det opplyst at midler fra hennes farsarv er hos Ole Nielsen Sør-Almenning: SAT, Salten sorenskriveri, 3/3A/L0004: Skifteprotokoll 3a, 1729-1733, s. 60b-61a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090226640296

 

Dette indikerer er relasjon mellom Botell og Ole Nielsen. Willum Olsen Drag blir også farløs ca 14 år gammel i 1730. Kan det likevel tenkes at det er han som oppholder seg på Stor(?)almenningen og som gifter seg i 1747? Og som altså oppholder seg i Troms ved skifte etter farbroren i 1762.

[Ivar Kristensen]

Leif, har du lest alle tre sidene i diskusjonen som jeg la inn lenke til? Da tror jeg du vil se at saken er ganske klar. Alan Hutchinson, som er faghistoriker og har skrevet Saltdal gård og slekt, har gjort en grundig jobb. En en patrilineær etterkommer av Willum Olsen Malangseidet har har dessuten Y-DNA match med meg. 

 

Endret September 19, 2021 av Ivar Kristensen

[Kathleen Love]

So progress: both Willum Olsens moved to Troms.  This is all very exciting. I very much appreciate all the ideas here.

 

There is a mention somewhere that Wm. Olsen Storalmenningen's son Christen was last known alive in 1753. Is this from someone's shift?

 

Malena Jansdatter aka Johannesdr, Jonsdr...  Saltdal gård og slekt has nothing about her, only the possible 1710 birth year?

Why has everyone connected her to Johannes Arentsen and Berit Madsdr. Sundbye? Saltdal gård og slekt gives Johannes birth years in the 1694-1700 range; the couple is married in 1728, children born in the 1730's. Their Malin Johannesdr. was born 1737. I have two sources for son Mads Johannesen that put him in 1732-33. (You know the kirkbok for the last half of 1717 to the middle of 1735 is missing.) I do not know what was Hutchinson's source for this family.

Nothing in this fits the woman at Malangseidet.

 

I had great hopes for Johannes Arentsen's skifte. He supposedly died 1771; I cannot find it. Can you experts?

I have Berit Madsdr's. Nothing there - children's names but no ages, spouses, residences.

 

Thank you all again.

[Leif Johannessen]

"Skifte" after Malis half-sister Berithe Johansdatter: SAT, Salten sorenskriveri, 3/3A/L0027: Skifteprotokoll 13a, 1790-1791, s. 191b-192a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090227620615

 

It says:  "8. Halvsøsteren Mali Johansdtr. er i Tromsøe og skal være gift, men vites ei med hvem" (..is in Tromsø and should be married, but spouse is unknown).

 

Skifte after Mali/Malene in 1796/97: SATØ, Senja og Tromsø sorenskriveri , H/Hb/L0146: Skifteutlodningsprotokoll, 1788-1798, s. 491b-492a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20081205680763

 

The engagement between Willum and Mali in 1747: SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Nordland, 847/L0662: Ministerialbok nr. 847A02, 1735-1749, s. 109
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20071119650009

 

Witnesses: Herdag Hellesen, Saxenvig and Hele (Helge) Jensen, Nordnes. The last one was married to Karen Madsdatter, the sister of Berit Madsdatter.

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you so much for this. Real data!

I have the skifte after Malene 1796, but can't read details. Is there anything else there? Malene at Malangseidet-Middagsbugten was in her second marriage; I guess it is reasonable the family does not know of him.

[An aside here: for a while I suspected Willum Olsen Malang. was two different people. Some of his sources alternate between those two farms. One of his children's christenings gives the Middagsbugten farm name. And he is there on the 1762-63 ekstraskatt. Did he have an interest in two farms?]

 

Berithe's skifte is hard going for me. Widower Jacob Monsen; her mother Berit Hansdr. now remarried to Hans Jakobsen? Brother Mads who died the year before.

Am I correctly reading half sister Ane Johansdr., widow of Niels Jacobsen Ripnes.. and something in Bødø?

I am happy to see her half sister Marithe, married to Anders Jensen there. I spent DAYS tracking this pair down in Buksnes Prest., Lofoten.

That was one of my previous queries, sorting out their son Ole Andersen, his probate. Trying to verify the Arentsen family. I have not looked much at the children from the second marriage yet.

 

I had Willum's 1747 marriage on page 115 but not the engagement. Do you read it as "enkemanden Villom Olsen"?

Someone in the Geni thread from Ivar Kristensen took issue with his status not being given on the marriage.

 

What do you make of the younger Willum Olsen Drage/Nordnes b. 1717's connections, Herdag Hellesen and Helge Jensen Nordnes, being the engagement witnesses?

Now, no one thinks this in one man, not two, do they?

I have one additional source for the younger Willum: church confirmation 1738, Willum Olsen Nordnes. Top right.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16616/12

 

I still favor the younger Willum as the Malangseidet resident. Age 47 at death in 1763 - an exact number, not a rounded-off estimate. I'll tell you, there is a big difference between a man of 47 and one 64!

Everyone ignores Malene Jansdr 1710 birth year in gård og slekt. She would have been 43 to 53 when the children were born -just no.

Many thanks.

[Ivar Kristensen]

17 timer siden, Leif Johannessen skrev:

The engagement between Willum and Mali in 1747: SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Nordland, 847/L0662: Ministerialbok nr. 847A02, 1735-1749, s. 109
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20071119650009

 

 

"Stoeralm" = Storalmenningen. Han hadde en eldre bror, Isak, som var lensmann i Hammerfest. Se Forsøk på transkribering av domsavsigelse - Tyding av skannede kilder - Arkivverket 

[Ivar Kristensen]

13 timer siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

I had Willum's 1747 marriage on page 115 but not the engagement. Do you read it as "enkemanden Villom Olsen"?

Someone in the Geni thread from Ivar Kristensen took issue with his status not being given on the marriage.

 

p. 109: "Feste Manden" = Festemann https://naob.no/ordbok/festemann

 

p. 115 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20071119650015

 

 

"Copuleret Villum Olsen Stoer

almening, og Malena Jansdatter"

Endret September 21, 2021 av Ivar Kristensen

[Kathleen Love]

Thank you, this is a new term to me. In this context, basically fiancé?

[Ivar Kristensen]

Yes. Have you seen this discussion on Geni? Malena Jensdatter - Hvem var Malene's far (foreldre)? (geni.com) 

Endret September 21, 2021 av Ivar Kristensen