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Help requested with a marriage record - place names


Kathleen Love

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Here is the probate/skifte after Hans Olsen, Langvad, (half)brother of Willum Olsen. It could be hard to read, and contains some errors, but I think we now can draw a line from Ole Willumsen in Troms to his grandfather Ole Hellesen, Drag, d. 1730: SAT, Salten sorenskriveri, 3/3A/L0032: Skifteprotokoll 15a, 1798-1801, s. 313b-314a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090227640645

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Thank you again. I will spend some time on this.

If I take a free Geni membership, would I have access to all these discussions?

 

A question came to mind today: Willum StorAlmenningen's first son is Christen. Who is he named for?

 

Saltdal: Gård og Slekt - is there a forward or information in the books about the sources? Crucial years of the parish book are lost. Where did Hutchinson get the data for events 1718-1734?

 

 

Edited by Kathleen Love
clarify: this is response to Ivar Kristensen
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AWESOME, Leif. I see Ole Willumsen named in several places. Can you tell me what is said surrounding him? Particularly the last three lines on page 314a?

Am I making out "Willum Olsen's barn", Ole Willumsen? And more about him in the very last lines of the shift.

 

Is Hans unmarried without children?

 

I was going to make a separate post out of this: is there a bygdebok called "Vaar Slekt"? Someone references it in a genealogy on FamilySearch, with a quote about Willum and Malene. Maybe there is more?

Thank you so much.

vaar slekt.png

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Ja, dette skal det sannelig bli interessant å følge! Som sagt: jeg har en Y-DNA match med en mann som er etterkommer i direkte farslinje fra Willum Olsen Malangseidet, gjennom hans sønn Ole Kristian Willumsen. Min farslinje går fra Nils Willumsen, f. ca. 1620, som skal være farfar til Willum Olsen. Se 

 

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Kath: Why the name Christen? I have no idea.

 

In the list of heirs they call Willum "Willum Helgesen". ..is dead...a. the son Ole Willumsen lives in Tromsø fogderi. b. One daugther, name unknown.

 

In the last lines p. 314a the name is correct, And they repeat that they not have the daugthers name. (What about the other children?)

 

Ivar: Could the same Y-DNA go in different lines in a small society like this?

 

I see only one Ole Willumsen in Troms in the 1801 census?

Edited by Leif Johannessen
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52 minutter siden, Leif Johannessen skrev:

 

Ivar: Could the same Y-DNA go in different lines in a small society like this?

 

Det er mulig, men her er det også uavhengig kildebelegg, som Hutchinson har funnet, og som jeg har utlagt her, som viser at Willum Olsen, som var gift med Malena Jansdatter, kom fra gården Storalmenningen. Legg for øvrig merke til at Willum Olsen og Malena hadde en datter med navnet Øllegård. Ole Nilsen Storalmenning var gift med Øllegård Isaksdatter. Hun var Willum Olsens mor. 

Edited by Ivar Kristensen
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Leif - yes, he is the only one in 1801. At Malangseydet. More confirming information there: Malena's second husband/ widower Hemming Hansen is living with him.

Ole's wife Ingebor Hemmingsdatter does not seem to have a connection to him.

The offspring are easy to trace. A good thing "Willum" is not one of the ten commonest names!

I think I understand Hans Olsen Langvad's shift when I look at the tree and see the connections. There is a lot there. Very exciting.

Thank you again for all this.

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Kathleen, Ole Helgesen Drage/Drageid had a son Willum Olsen who moved to Troms, but he is not identical with Willum Olsen Malangseidet, who was married with Malena Jansdatter. The evidence I have presented here clearly shows that it was Willum Olsen from Storalmenningen who married Malena Jansdatter. He was son of Ole Nilsen Storalmenning and Øllegård Isaksdatter, and he had a daughter with the same forename as his mother. 

Edited by Ivar Kristensen
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Well, a question for you, Ivar.  When do you think Malene was born, and is there any evidence for it?

The spouse has to match too.

We have a firm birth year for Wm. Stor Almenningen as he is on the 1701 mantall. Gard og Slekt gives his Malene a 1710 birth. This is too old - she couldn't be having children at 53. And who is she? I do not dispute that Wm S-A married a Malene Jansdr in 1747 and had one son. (On Christen's christening her name looks like either Jansdr or Hansdr.)

At Malangseidet I see a still-young family. Married about 10 years, 7 children. Malene is having healthy babies regularly; fertility is not waning yet. Cut short by Willum's death at about 47.

 

It appears Johannes Arentsen is likely her father, with the evidence of half-sister Berithe's shift, but there is not a good birth date for the Malin in that family. Johannes and Berit Madsdr. don't marry till 1728. Gard og Slekt gives 1737 for her, if the transcription I see on line is correct. I have not found a matching record in the kirkbok. Too recent, unless Willum eloped with a very young girl!

While searching for more information, I am open to there being two different Malenes here,  perhaps 10 to 15 years or more apart in age.

It is not unlikely that there are two couples with similar names. It is difficult that there are so many variations of the Johannesdr. surname.

 

This is a vague idea, I don't know enough: the bits of biography of Willum do not quite match up. Willum Storalmenningen is said to have been in service in the Troms bailiff's office. I found his name in a 1744 skifte in Bødø, doing something administrative with the estate, which could fit.  He rented land in Troms in 1753 - I would love to see a source for this. Meanwhile Willum Malangseidet is said to have first cleared land in '47 or '48? Owns the farm? Family is started by 1753. Said to be a boatbuilder as well as a farmer.

Please, tear apart my arguments!

 

Are there records for Troms  bailiffs and lensmands?

Thank you

 

 

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4 timer siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Well, a question for you, Ivar.  When do you think Malene was born, and is there any evidence for it?

The spouse has to match too.

We have a firm birth year for Wm. Stor Almenningen as he is on the 1701 mantall. Gard og Slekt gives his Malene a 1710 birth. This is too old - she couldn't be having children at 53. And who is she? I do not dispute that Wm S-A married a Malene Jansdr in 1747 and had one son. (On Christen's christening her name looks like either Jansdr or Hansdr.)

At Malangseidet I see a still-young family. Married about 10 years, 7 children. Malene is having healthy babies regularly; fertility is not waning yet. Cut short by Willum's death at about 47.

 

See the discussion about her age here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/221893 
Malenas age was 50 in the 1769 census for Tromsø. That's probably more correct, b. abt. 1720. 

 

4 timer siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

He rented land in Troms in 1753 - I would love to see a source for this.

 

Yes. Se my transcription of skiftet (probate) after Willum Olsen here: https://www.geni.com/discussions/185148?authenticity_token=u4hnQICbbtxJl9TA4ZBpSVWtPhbcgfhr%2BGEbgBrMZo8%3D&by_or_about=6000000006018869001&page=3 

 

 "Anno 1765 dend 4 Feb: Skiftet og deelt i Stervboet efter afgl: Willum Olsen som var boende i Balsfiorden ved Mallangs Eidet. Hands efterladte Hustru er Mallene Jansdatter og hans børn ere disse: 1 Ole er 10 aar gammel, 2 Jens er 3 aar, 3 Karen er 11 aar, 4 Johanna er 8 aar, 5 Bereth-Martha er 5 aar og 5te Øllegaard er lit over 1 aar gammel. Stervboets Formue befandtes ved Registrering og vurdering at beløbe til dend Summa = 103 rd 3s, foruden endel gangklæder efter den Sal: mand som beløber ved vurdering til 5 rd 8s. - Forunden efterskrevne udlagde løsøre og de huuse som tilhøre Stervboet, vare der endel andre huuse som bleve lagde til gaarden, efter at Proprietairen Sr Hysing derom har framsendt hands skriftlige paastand af dato 29de Novembr 1764, hvorpaa er af Skifteforvalteren saaledes besluttet og Eragtet: Den Kongelig Forordning om Rødning i Norge, datt: 6te Maj 1754, befaler udtrykkelig: at den som antager sig nogen Plads til Rødning, ej allene er forbunden at Rødde Pladsen til Enge- og Agerland, men endog at bebygge Pladsen, som forstaaer i henseende til nødvendige huuse, som hand har vedderlav nok fore naar hand nyder de friheder som Forordningens 14 og 15de art: nævner, saavelsom Forordningen af 29de Ap: 1752 dend 6te Post. Og da Stervboegaarden er en saadan Rødningsplads som endnu ikke er Skyldsatt; Saa tilfindes efterfølgende huuse at tilhøre pladsen af de her forefindende huuse, neml: 1 god dagligStue med Fordør samt Sængested og bænk i Stuen, 1 bord boe ved dagligStuen, 1 god Korn Lade, 1 gl: dito med Høe Lade i enden, og tvende Fæ-huuse under et Tag. De øvrige huuse der ere paa Pladsen, saasom: en anden gammel Stue., 1 baad-Nøst, 1 Skiaa og 1 Smidehuus, og tas billigt at komme til boets Indtægt, helst da de ovenmelte gaarden tilkiente huuse, befindes gode og forsvarlige. –"

 

Sr (Johan) Hysing was the proprietor. 

Edited by Ivar Kristensen
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Excellent - a source for the 1719/20 date.  I cannot find the 1769 census in the Digital Archive. It shows me only Vest -Adger and Sør-Trøndelag. Perhaps I am not doing the search correctly.

Would you be able to send a link?

Thank you so much

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9 timer siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Would you be able to send a link?

 

I dont think the original is digitalized, but it is transcribed here: PIN's genealogiske sider (sadesbingen.se)

 

Middagsbugt Heming Hans. bruker 36  
Malena Olsd. kone 50 "og Hst.
Ole Villums. barn 12 "K142/62"
Jens   barn 7  
Karen   barn 15  
Johanna   barn 10  
Berith   barn 8  
Øllegaard   barn 6

 

På 2021-9-22 den 5.27, Kathleen Love skrev:

Leif - yes, he is the only one in 1801. At Malangseydet. More confirming information there: Malena's second husband/ widower Hemming Hansen is living with him.

 

Øllegård/Øllegaard is quite an interesting name. More about it here: 

 

Edited by Ivar Kristensen
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Thanks so much. PIN is great!

I didn't know about the 1769 census. Was this a count of everyone?

Do you know of similar transcriptions for Nordland? (My ancestors are from Saltdal and Rødøy/ Lurøy.)

I have found some people of interest in ekstraskatt (pardon spelling if wrong) records but I am ignorant: does this only include adults in the household? Not everyone who should be there is listed. You realize I am only recognizing names, dates, place names on these records; I can't READ them.

 

 I am scanning the PIN site. I see someone I had a passing interest in: Kiel Olsen Selnes. He is a witness on a couple events in Wm. Olsen's sources - a christening I think, and Malene's second marriage. I wondered if he was related. The 1796 manntall says he is from Salten! Do you know him?

 

And there are Ole Wellumsen and Hemming Hansen at Midagsbugt.

Did they move from Malangseidet to Middagsbugten after Willum died? He has some sources that give that farm name. An interest in two properties?

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On 9/21/2021 at 4:21 PM, Leif Johannessen said:

 

In the list of heirs they call Willum "Willum Helgesen". ..is dead...a. the son Ole Willumsen lives in Tromsø fogderi. b. One daugther, name unknown.

 

In the last lines p. 314a the name is correct, And they repeat that they not have the daugthers name. (What about the other children?)

 

I see only one Ole Willumsen in Troms in the 1801 census?

Leif - Ole Willumsen is the logical name for a Willum Olsen's first son, of course. Maybe Wm. Olsen Drage only had two children?

Did the two Willum Olsens live in Troms at the same time? Is there any hint of another Willum Olsen at this time?

In the shift after Hans Olsen Langvad, is "Tromsø fogderi" the correct designation? Could they mean (potentially anywhere in) Troms fogderi, as opposed to specifically Tromsø parish?

 

Thank you, K.

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I know nearly nothing about Willum Olsen, born ca. 1699. Where can we find him in the sources?

 

Fogderi was the administration for legal activity and taxes. Normally it included several parishes. In "skifte" I think they normally used "fogderi" because it was their own term.

 

Willum Olsen in Bodø was another person, well-known (son of Ole Colbanussen, Gildeskål and Berit Willumsdatter from Øysund in Meløy, Helgeland).

 

 

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For Willum 1699 in Saltdal there are only a few I know

The 1701 mantall    https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/38464/54

For his parents there is a marriage record, 1691 in Skjerstad, and Ollegard's skifte.

The engagement and marriage to Malene 1747 https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16616/122 and https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16616/116

(referenced in the thread above, where the trolovernes are associates of Wm Olsen Drage/Nordnes)

The christening of son Christen 1748 at https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16616/135. Bottom right with the fadders on the next page. Yes, one is Berete Madsdr. Sundbye, the spouse of Johannes Arentsen and mother of Malin Johannesdr. Two others I believe to be high-status individuals in the community, Severin Kildal the priest and skipper Abel Morch Saltnes, local rich man.  Joen Henrichsen and Maritte Jansdr. Stor-Almenning are unknown to me.

 

1721 marriage to Elisabeth Helgesdatter is only known from Saltdal Gård og Slekt, as far as I know.

And just his name here, https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/24938/199.  Bottom left, in someone's skifte, 1744. This was a lucky find - I was reading the record on the right page - Ole Knudsen Rokland, son of Elisabeth Helgesdr. Elisabeth died 1742; he gave up his interest in Rokland and returned to Storalmenning. So he had interesting employment in this period.

 

So there is a lot on Willum at Malangseidet. What I am getting at is investigating the other side of the argument - falsifying it, as it were. Is there another Willum Olsen in Troms who could be the other man from Saltdal? (The other one - regardless of which one you think lived at Malangseidet.) Can you use your search skills to investigate?

They seem to be traveling men.. I have been looking all over Norway at Willum Olsens.

 

If you like I will put together my sources for Willum Olsen b. 1717, father Ole Helgesen. There is even less.

Thanks so much. I am enjoying this a great deal.

 

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If Øllegaard, d. ca 1753, was his mother - why is he not among the heirs? The intention of such a public affair, with authorities there, was that the values should be shared after the law. And if he had moved lately, they would know it. SAT, Salten sorenskriveri, 3/3A/L0007: Skifteprotokoll 5a, 1745-1753, s. 343b-344a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090226650690

 

So I wonder; was he alive?

 

The name you found in 1744 is the guy in Bodø.

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Yes, that is one of the issues - he's not there. Even if his whereabouts were unknown, he should be mentioned. Brother Isach in Hammerfest is named.

One thing to look for: burials between 1748 and 1753.

I have not found a shift after his father, Ole Nielsen Almenningen, d. 1739

 

For fun I just looked up the fadder on Christen Willumsen's 1748 christening, Joen Henrichsen. It is interesting - he seems to be Joen Henrichsen Drage, the brother of Elisabeth Henrichsdr. wife of Helge Olsen, the son of Ole Helgesen and brother of Willum Olsen Drage/Nordnes.

Can't make too much of witnesses/ fadders. It was a very small community and everyone is related.

One of my projects is finding everyone on the Saltdal Prest. 1801 census. Less than a thousand people, though the priest omitted a lot of farms. Strangers turn out to be 6th cousins, or married to one.

 

Thank you for clearing up the 1744 source. Not surprised I am seeing things that aren't there, squinting at the old records.

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On 9/23/2021 at 3:09 AM, Ivar Kristensen said:

Øllegård/Øllegaard is quite an interesting name. More about it here: 

Greetings, Ivar -

I know you put a lot of weight on Willum Olsen's daughter being named Øllegård, for his mother. What do you think of some other names in the family?

First born son is Christen. Is he named for someone? I do not know of any Christens in the family. But like Karen, a very popular name; perhaps more common in Nordland than in Troms?

Do you think he died before 1753 and so the next son is named Ole Christian?

 

Thank you for your thoughts.  K.

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Kathleen, these are common names. Øllegaard is not. 

 

På 2021-9-23 den 16.41, Kathleen Love skrev:

Did they move from Malangseidet to Middagsbugten after Willum died?

 

They are registered at Middagsneset in 1762 (Ekstraskatten). See https://www.digitalarkivet.no/rk10041112050156 


"Midagsnæss. Propriet: Willum Olsøn med Hustrue." Med hustru = with wife. 

 

image.png.b8b0bba9bb6cfcb49d500211acf23f45.png

 

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Thank you Ivar. I am confused; will have to look at the sources.

Who was counted on this 1762 Ekstraskatten? Only the adults?

Listed as proprietor - he is the farm owner?

Is Middagsneset an alternate spelling for Middagsbugten? Are these places so close together that they cannot be distinguished?

Balsfjorden is the larger area, correct?

Working on Saltdal, I have tried to match farm names in the records, to be more sure of the correct Ole Olsen, for example. Perhaps that strategy is not working here.

So they are at Middags. in 1762, but his shift in '64-65 says Malangseidet and Balsfjorden. The widow is living at Middags. later; son Ole is at Malangseidet in 1801.

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26 minutter siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Who was counted on this 1762 Ekstraskatten? Only the adults?

 

Only persons over the age of 12. See https://www.digitalarkivet.no/rk10041112050120 

 

26 minutter siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Listed as proprietor - he is the farm owner?

 

No

 

26 minutter siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Is Middagsneset an alternate spelling for Middagsbugten? Are these places so close together that they cannot be distinguished?

 

No, but they are close.

 

26 minutter siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

Balsfjorden is the larger area, correct?

 

Correct

 

26 minutter siden, Kathleen Love skrev:

So they are at Middags. in 1762, but his shift in '64-65 says Malangseidet and Balsfjorden.

 

"Balsfiorden ved Mallangs Eidet". That could be Middagsnes or Middagsbukt. ved=by

Edited by Ivar Kristensen
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