Request for help locating great-grandfather in Larvik in mid-1800s

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

18 timer siden, Richard Olsen skrev:

Kristian H needs to be given his props. As the saying goes, he went on and beyond his call of duty. This validates my statements on the greatness of the Digital Archives and  others.

 

Some of you are aware that I'm an employee at The National Archives of Norway. On behalf of The National Archives of Norway, I would like to like to express our gratitude for such evaluation of our services.

 

However, in this particular case, I will underline that I take part as a private person, and that's why I'm writing as Kristian Hunskaar (privat). I live close to Larvik and I have a general interest for history and genealogy in Larvik and the surrounding area.

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

19 timer siden, Richard Olsen skrev:

This is a huge mistake that many people make when researching their family history. As soon as they find one candidate, they drop all of the other possibilities.

 

This is an important reminder.

 

The Hans Hansen Lindhjem investigations should alternatively aim for falsifying the assumption that he was the same person William Brown. Personally, I'm curious about what happened to Hans Hansen Lindhjem in the US, regardless if he was William Brown, or not.

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

11 timer siden, Inger Hohler skrev:

I forgot to answer this question. The farm numer 64 is crucial. Now, the farm numbers in Tjølling have changed. But they changed in such a way that 1000 was added to the original number. https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Matrikkelgårder_i_tidligere_Tjølling_kommune
https://seeiendom.kartverket.no/eiendom/3805/1064/6/0/0 

There are currently two addresses for the farm formerly number 64: Lindhjemveien 416 and Lindhjemveien 418, both at 3280 TJODALYNG. There's a picture of Lignum Østre on this page https://dev.lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Lindhjemveien

Incidently these farms are only about half an hour's drive from where I live, and my maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother Helvig Cathrine Hansen grew up on the neighbouring farm Annisrød. She was born in 1824 so she would have known Hans Hansen Lindheim as a child. I would not be at all surprised if they were  somehow related.

 

Hans Sørensen was the owner of what is today farm number (gårdsnummer) 1064, sub number (bruksnummer) 12. The address is Himbergveien 37 and 39: https://seeiendom.kartverket.no/eiendom/3805/1064/12/0/0

 

The current owner is one of Hans Sørensen's great-great grandchildren.

Endret Juni 25, 2022 av Kristian Hunskaar (privat)

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

På 24.6.2022 den 3.54, Louise Ober skrev:

Thank you, Kristian, for the interesting details about the transfer of the family property from Hans S to Thore in 1871 (plus the conditions to care for the in-laws), and the settlement of the mortgage upon the death of Hans S.  Presumably (some of) the money came from the July auction/sale of movable property.

 

When you say Hans stated that he received "his half," does that mean that half the inheritance (after the loan was repaid or forgiven) went to the son-on-law/daughter Anne, and the other half went to Hans? 

 

Would NOK 1302,70 have been a lot, a little, or a moderate amount of money in 1885?  

(Enough to, say, make a down payment on a new house in Boston? 🙂 WHB moved homes in Boston between 1885 and 1900.)

 

I need to add further comments to avoid misinterpretations:

 

We can assume that Hans Sørensen left as follows:

• Moveable property (Norwegian: innbo og løsøre).
• The rest of the loan he had given to Tore Andersen. The loan was originally (in 1871) 600 speciedaler, converted to 2400 kroner when Norway changed currency in 1875. By August 3rd 1885 the loan amounted to 2605,40 kroner, including 5 % interests as from December 11th 1883. (Thus, Tore Andersen had only paid interests between 1871 and 1883.)
• Maybe some money and other values in addition.

 

Hans Hansen's inheritance would be values equalling half of this.

 

Therefore, half of the loan (or bond) would be transferred to Hans Hansen and the other half would be transferred to Anne Malene Hansdatter, the wife of Tore Andersen. What happened August 3rd 1885, is that the loan / board was liquidated: Hans Hansen declared to have received the value of half of the loan / bond, and Tore Andersen declared - on behalf of his wife - to be the owner of the other half.

 

Apart from this, Hans Hansen should receive values equalling half of the income from the auction and half of the other values, if there was any.

 

We can assume that Hans Hansen had no interest in the moveable property, as he probably was going back to the US, so to him an auction was a reasonable choice. (The newspaper article about Hans Sørensen confirms that Hans Hansen was living in the US, whether he was William Brown or not.) Tore Andersen obviously didn't have the money to liquidate the loan / bond right away, so to him the auction of the moveable property was crucial to raise money for liquidating the loan / bond.

 

I suppose that Tore Andersen was really struggling to pay Hans Hansen's half of the inheritance, without having to sell the farm. In 1886, Tore Andersen borrowed 3600 kroner from the bank (Hypotekbanken), and then a further 1200 kroner in 1896 and 1500 kroner in 1905. At least property prices were increasing, so when he sold the farm to his son Nils Toresen in 1907, the price was 21000 kroner.

[Egil Johannessen]

5 timer siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

På 24.6.2022 den 16.19, Richard Olsen skrev:

This is a huge mistake that many people make when researching their family history. As soon as they find one candidate, they drop all of the other possibilities.

 

This is an important reminder.

 

It is a fundamental misunderstanding to believe people helping in this thread are only researching one candidate (read; HH = WHB). Several candidates have been suggested and researched and we've encouraged proposals such as; 

 

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

5 timer siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

The Hans Hansen Lindhjem investigations should alternatively aim for falsifying the assumption that he was the same person William Brown.

 

Of course, that's been the aim all along. We are all working diligently to disprove HH is WHB as much as we are working to prove it. 

 

If one has any information that can shed light on either or then put it forward instead of saying;

 

"Actually, I have seen indicators that Hans Hansen is not William H Brown."

 

 

If you feel ignored, which of course is a pity, setting forth fatuous statements like this is of no help:

 

"I have found further relevant information, but will not post it due to the snubbing" 

 

 

 Instead, present your findings.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

Now, I can only speak for myself - I've been looking to find other suitable candidates and so far I haven't found any. If I had, I certainly would have posted it.

Endret Juni 25, 2022 av Egil Johannessen

[Kristian Hunskaar (privat)]

4 timer siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

The Hans Hansen Lindhjem investigations should alternatively aim for falsifying the assumption that he was the same person William Brown. Personally, I'm curious about what happened to Hans Hansen Lindhjem in the US, regardless if he was William Brown, or not.

 

26 minutter siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

Of course, that's been the aim all along. We are all working diligently to disprove HH is WHB as much as we are working to prove it. 

 

I agree to that. Either way, we will have to find as much as possible about Hans Hansen. We are several people taking part in this research, so while some of us are focusing on Hans Hansen, others may research other possibilities.

[Egil Johannessen]

6 timer siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

The current owner is one of Hans Sørensen's great-great grandchildren.

 

The current owner is Hans Sørensen's great-great-great grandchild.

 

For information; I've spoken to Hans Sørensen's great-great grandchild (who also lives on the farm (borett)). He's away on holiday but will get back to me in about 2-3 weeks.

Endret Juni 25, 2022 av Egil Johannessen

[Richard Olsen]

I come into the house of a bit after enjoying a Sun

ny Saturday to this.

 

For the record, I do not feel snubbed by any Norwegian.

 

You want honesty, here it is (no sob story, lameness, etc. Nothing but the truth)

 

I am nearing the end of my life. I have great pride in my Norwegian Ancestry and Heritage. I received a lot of assistance during my genealogy pursuits. While I can, I thought I would pass on that generosity to others on this forum.

 

My first attempt at assisting someone on this forum resulted in snubbing. I am stunned.

 

I spent days searching records in Larvik - baptism, confirmation, in-and-out migration, leaving the church, seamen rolls, death, and working on leads. In addition, I searched in the U.S.

 

Immediately, I was snubbed. For that, I will back off searching for WHB and not provide information I have accumulated. (what a waste).

 

Here is an interesting tidbit.......There is a family tree on FamilySearch that has Jacob Brown and James Brown placed as William Brown's brothers.

 

Please, let this go.

[Anton Hagelee]

On 6/20/2022 at 3:42 AM, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

According to a GENI-profile, HWB' father was born in Larvik: https://www.geni.com/people/Henrik-Wilhelm-Wright-Bruun/6000000011300076328

 

Should we search for a possible birth of an illegitimate son (William Henry ca 1832), before his marriage in Egersund 1837?

 

I took another look at the Geni.com profile for Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun born in 1807 in Kristiansand. Several people have pointed out that this family is well represented in Larvik, Vestfold. 

 

I see that the Y-DNA for this family has been analyzed and reported in the Geni profile. Obviously someone has obtained the DNA results on a male descendant of this Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun. The line traces back through the male ancestors to Christian Eiler Bruun born in 1710 in Larvik, Vestfold. 

 

The DNA results are listed as

N-Y5611

 

Thus the Haplogroup is N. There is only a small percentage of N Haplogroup in Norway. About 2.5 % and mostly in the northern reaches of Norway. 

 

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_N1c_Y-DNA.shtml

 

Determining if William H Brown is or is not a member of this family is made much easier by the relative rarity of this Haplogroup. If Louisa Ober has a male descendant of William H Brown available as a provider of a DNA sample I think the question can be fairly easy to answer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

I took my clicking a little further and clicked on the More Details box. 

 

The DNA sample comes from Raymond Bruun and the test is a Y-67. That is 67 DNA markers are tested. 

 

Raymond Bruun

6th great grandson

N-Y5611 from Y-67

 

Apparently other members of the family line have been tested by a DNA test called  

Autosomal DNA. A test that covers all ancestors but is much more difficult to interpret. 

 

The test was likely done by Family Tree DNA since I found the results listed in the Norgesprosjektet DNA. There is a link between the two groups so a test by FT-DNA is listed in the Y-DNA Classic Chart on the Norway Project website. 

 

Link to the two organizations. 

 

https://www.familytreedna.com

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/norway/activity-feed

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Norway?iframe=yresults

 

Clcking on that last link takes you to the list of DNA results The test for the Bruun family is on page 2, test nr 692. 

 

692

503852

Christian Eiler Bruun, 1660-1710 Larvik VFO

Norway

N-Y21546

 

 

I might add that one of the Family Members listed for the Autosomal Test is David Widerberg Howden. David is an expert in DNA technology and also a contributing member of this Forum. So perhaps a built in Advisor if we need one. 

 

 

 

 

Endret Juni 26, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

https://www.norwaydna.no/

(they have a Facebook group too: https://www.facebook.com/groups/128862790463874)

 

For Y-DNA (paternal male line) you will have to test male only line (son-of-son-of son...  ).
For autosomal test it is always best to test your ancestor's closest descendant.

I think  FamilytreeDNA is the only company to do Y-DNA.

Endret Juni 26, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Anton Hagelee]

10 hours ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

I think  FamilytreeDNA is the only company to do Y-DNA.

 

That is basically correct. However when I was tested back in 2016, they offered a middle test of 67 markers. Called Y-67. I see on their website that the option is no longer available. They now offer Y-37, Y-111 and Big Y-700. I think 37 is probably a little too few  markers to test and 700 is a bit of an overkill. 111 should be enough to give you a lot of information on the  Haplogroup that William H Brown belonged to.

 

In my DNA submission I submitted  what I suspected was my Oldest Known Ancestor. For me that was Syvert Torjussen Herefoss, born about 1590 in Herefoss Parish, Aust-Agder County.

 

Once the testing is done the site will post whatever matches popup. Initially I received several matches with a Genetic Distance of 4 or more. Mostly matches with Englishmen, thus not very useful to me. Not enough knowledge to connect that far back in time. 

 

However in 2018 I received notice of this match. I blocked out his last name. Here is a man from Oslo who took a Big Y 500 test. His Paternal Oldest Known Ancestor is a match to mine. Genetic Distance of 1. Meaning of the 67 sections of DNA compared he and I have only one of sections different and 66 identical sections of DNA. He took the big test but mine was the much smaller 67 markers.

 

Both he and I had provided an e-mail address so we compared notes and found a common ancestor Torjus Syvertsen Retterstøl born about 1622,

 

Jon Magne ??????? 

FAMILY FINDER

MTFULL SEQUENCE

BIG Y-500

speaker_notesbar_chart

Markers Tested

1 to 500

 

Genetic Distance

1 step

 

Big Y STR Differences 

Not Available

 

Y Haplogroup

R-YP4241

 

Paternal Country of Origin 

Norway

 

Paternal Earliest Known Ancestor

Syvert Torjussen Herefoss, b 1590, Birkenes A-AGD 

Match date: June 09 2018

 

 

Endret Juni 26, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

28 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

 

That is basically correct. However when I was tested back in 2016, they offered a middle test of 67 markers. Called Y-67. I see on their website that the option is no longer available. They now offer Y-37, Y-111 and Big Y-700. I think 37 is probably a little too few  markers to test and 700 is a bit of an overkill. 111 should be enough to give you a lot of information on the  Haplogroup that William H Brown belonged to. 

 

 

 

I think it is OK to start with Y-37, if they want to exclude  Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun as an (paternal line) ancestor. (Or even Y-12, I think it is possible to order from NorwayDNA). It is possible to upgrade later.

Endret Juni 26, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Anton Hagelee]

Currently the ftDNA website offers 

 

Y-37 at $119

Y-111 at $249

Big Y-700 at $449

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#compare

 

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

7 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Currently the ftDNA website offers 

 

Y-37 at $119

Y-111 at $249

Big Y-700 at $449

 

https://www.familytreedna.com/products/y-dna#compare

 

 

Y-12 has been possible to order from Norwaydna's website, I think it still is possible (can't tell for sure). It is only usefull for excluding  a possible paternal line:

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Norway

[Louise Ober]

14 hours ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

For Y-DNA (paternal male line) you will have to test male only line (son-of-son-of son...  ).

 

On 6/25/2022 at 4:57 PM, Anton Hagelee said:

If Louisa Ober has a male descendant of William H Brown available as a provider of a DNA sample I think the question can be fairly easy to answer. 

This sounds like a great option!  The problem is I'm not sure there is any son-to-son-to-son ancestry that extends to the present. 🙁 WH Brown had the following sons:

 

1. Henry H Brown (b 1865, died as a bachelor mid 20th century/don't have exact date)

2. Frank Parker Brown (b. 1868, died as a bachelor around 1958/don't have exact date)

3. William Herman Brown (b. 1870, died age 2 in 1872)

4. Walter Herbert Brown (b. 1872, died at about 6 weeks old in Dec 1872)

5. Charles Eppes Brown (b. 1872, twin of #4, died a couple of days after his brother, in Jan 1873)

6. William Morgan Brown (b. 1874, married and had 2 daughters, Ethel and Winefred.  No sons.)

7. Herbert Emery Brown (b. 1880, died at age 37 in 1917 at Camp Keary Linda Vista, California) - DONT know if he had any children?

8. Walter Elmer Brown (b. 1883, died before his second birthday in Jan 1885)

9. Eddie Warren Brown (b. 1885, just discovered this guy, died at about 1 month old in July 1885)

 

The only other children of WHB with any progeny were my grandmother, Louise, and her sister Ada (makes me feel lucky to be here, actually 😀!)

 

So it's not looking promising, unless any of the older guys had "illegitimate" sons. 

 

So that leaves the autosomal DNA test, which doesn't require son-to-son lineage, is that right?

[Egil Johannessen]

10 minutter siden, Louise Ober skrev:

2. Frank Parker Brown (b. 1868, died as a bachelor around 1958/don't have exact date)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/1449389:3659

 

Boston Herald Monday, Mar 24, 1958 Boston, MA Page 22

[Egil Johannessen]

17 minutter siden, Louise Ober skrev:

1. Henry H Brown (b 1865, died as a bachelor mid 20th century/don't have exact date)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/3815744:3659?tid=&pid=&queryId=904c713cde21a26894b3365b4e8b73b8&_phsrc=pKb53&_phstart=successSource

 

The Boston Globe Boston, Massachusetts 24 Jan 1966, Mon • Page 3 - https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104488769/the-boston-globe/

[Egil Johannessen]

26 minutter siden, Louise Ober skrev:

7. Herbert Emery Brown (b. 1880, died at age 37 in 1917 at Camp Keary Linda Vista, California) - DONT know if he had any children?

 

Boston Herald Friday, Dec 28, 1917 Boston, MA Page 5

[Egil Johannessen]

In this one it's reported he had a child "Mrs. Brown and her baby"

 

Denver Rocky Mountain News Thursday, Dec 27, 1917 Denver, CO Page 1

 

[Egil Johannessen]

A three year old son reported in this one;

 

Denver Post Thursday, Dec 27, 1917 Denver, CO Page 13

[Egil Johannessen]

The boy's name was Raymond Gordon Brown;

 

Denver Post Wednesday, Dec 19, 1917 Denver, CO Page 6

[Egil Johannessen]

The U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007 - LINK Ancestry

Name:	Raymond Gordon Brown[Raymond G Brown]
Gender:	Male
Race:	White
Birth Date:	15 Feb 1915
Birth Place:	Denver, Colorado
Death Date:	24 Oct 1992
Father:	Herbert E Brown
Mother:	Nora Gordon
SSN:	336078163
Notes:	Dec 1936: Name listed as RAYMOND GORDON BROWN; 03 Nov 1992: Name listed as RAYMOND G BROWN

[Egil Johannessen]

FAG - https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/183330121/raymond-gordon-brown

Raymond Gordon Brown

BIRTH	15 Feb 1915 Denver, Denver County, Colorado, USA
DEATH	24 Oct 1992 (aged 77) Hazel Crest, Cook County, Illinois, USA
BURIAL	Saint Benedict Catholic Cemetery Crestwood, Cook County, Illinois, USA

[Egil Johannessen]

Family Tree Ancestry - https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/30921627/person/13596167694/facts