Request for help locating great-grandfather in Larvik in mid-1800s

[Richard Olsen]

12 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

I'm not sure why someone here is trying to stop others trying to help.
 

 

I assume that was directed to me.

 

I am not attempting to prevent anyone from helping. I am revealing nothing more than facts. Information on the provided links are not necessarily facts. Anyone can place anything on the internet. It is difficult to locate text material with no bias attached.

[Anton Hagelee]

5 minutes ago, Richard Olsen said:

Inger commented about the 35 cMs....I simply made an attempt to show Inger that there are various internet sources that have different information. Bias will play a role in what information the person accepts.

 

I am sorry but I seem to be a bit dimwitted today. But I guess my original question was why you have a reluctance to post a link to the source?

 

If I read your reply correctly you took the information that you replied to Inger with from an Internet Source. If that is correct why not supply a link to the internet source to the group? Supplying links to the site of the information is at least for me very useful in doing work on this site 

 

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Richard Olsen]

2 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

Supplying links to the site of the information is at least for me very useful in doing work on this site 

 

This is where we differ If I was quoting from many internet sources, I would provide links. I quote one line from the internet, and you are all over me about it.

 

Also, I have no interest to search the internet again for that specific quote

[Anton Hagelee]

21 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

In the Henrik Wilhelm Bruun case (if a son out of wedlock exist), an Y-DNA test would give valuable information.

 

If the main goal is to try and establish a link between William H Brown and the Bruun family form Larvik can we figure out what the relationship would be between one or more of the Autosomal test subjects mentioned in the Geni.com profile for Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun and a member of the William H Brown. Is there a fourth or third cousin relationship between one of the members of the Geni.com group of Bruun descendants and one of the members of the William H Brown family?

 

 

 

[Richard Olsen]

1 hour ago, Anton Hagelee said:

can we figure out what the relationship would be between one or more of the Autosomal test subjects

 

https://www.ancestry.com/c/dna-learning-hub/autosomal-dna-testing

 

Answers your question

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

26 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

 

If the main goal is to try and establish a link between William H Brown and the Bruun family form Larvik can we figure out what the relationship would be between one or more of the Autosomal test subjects mentioned in the Geni.com profile for Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun and a member of the William H Brown. Is there a fourth or third cousin relationship between one of the members of the Geni.com group of Bruun descendants and one of the members of the William H Brown family?

 

 

 

 

We know more about Hans Sørensen's descendants than Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's family (bygdebok, and Egil Johannessen have contact with a gg-grandchild of Hans Sørensen).
From Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's Geni profile:
The person who has done Y-DNA test, is a descendant of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's grandfather (fifth great grandson of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's grandfather as far as I can se).
2 daughter's of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun is mentioned, but the only grandchildren listed is Henrietta Laura Bruun's children. Some ggrandchildren are listed too. So it is likely that candidates for testing exist...

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Anton Hagelee]

6 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

The person who has done Y-DNA test, is a descendant of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's grandfather (as far as I can se).

 

Yes I agree. 

[Anton Hagelee]

For the autosomal testing, one of the females listed in the Geni profile is a daughter of Ivar Björgulf Bruun. 

 

We seem to be getting out a little far from our desire to have 3rd, 4th or at worst 5th cousins.

 

 

1. Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun b. 1807, Kristiansand, Vest-Agder, Norway; d. 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway

2. Arnt Bruun b. September 21, 1752, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 1, 1831, Christiansand, Norway

3. Christian Christiansen Bruun, Sr. b. February 12, 1709, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. February 1796, Porsgrunn, Telemark, Norway

 

 

1. Ivar Björgulf Bruun b. May 12, 1929, Oslo, Oslo, Norway; d. March 19, 2003, Tri City Hospital, Oceanside, San Diego County, California, United States

2. Karl Ludvig Bruun b. May 26, 1887, Tønsberg, Tønsberg, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 4, 1954, Oslo, Norge (Norway)

3. Carl Ludvig Bruun b. December 25, 1860, Larvik, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway

4. Louis Fridrich Hedvin Bruun b. January 8, 1827

5. Frideric Ludvig Bruun b. June 25, 1785, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway

6. Christian Eiler Bruun, Jr. b. 1745; d. 1795

7. Christian Christiansen Bruun, Sr. b. February 12, 1709, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. February 1796, Porsgrunn, Telemark, Norway

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Christian-Bruun-Sr/6000000011367412247

 

https://www.geni.com/list/descendants/6000000011367412247#4

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

20 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

For the autosomal testing, one of the females listed in the Geni profile is a daughter of Ivar Björgulf Bruun. 

 

 

1. Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun b. 1807, Kristiansand, Vest-Agder, Norway; d. 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway

2. Arnt Bruun b. September 21, 1752, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 1, 1831, Christiansand, Norway

3. Christian Christiansen Bruun, Sr. b. February 12, 1709, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. February 1796, Porsgrunn, Telemark, Norway

4. Christian Eiler Bruun b. circa 1660; d. September 15, 1710, Laurvig, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway

 

1. Ivar Björgulf Bruun b. May 12, 1929, Oslo, Oslo, Norway; d. March 19, 2003, Tri City Hospital, Oceanside, San Diego County, California, United States

2. Karl Ludvig Bruun b. May 26, 1887, Tønsberg, Tønsberg, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 4, 1954, Oslo, Norge (Norway)

3. Carl Ludvig Bruun b. December 25, 1860, Larvik, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway

4. Louis Fridrich Hedvin Bruun b. January 8, 1827

5. Frideric Ludvig Bruun b. June 25, 1785, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway

6. Christian Eiler Bruun, Jr. b. 1745; d. 1795

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Christian-Bruun-Sr/6000000011367412247

 

https://www.geni.com/list/descendants/6000000011367412247#4

 

Closer relatives to Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun exist on Geni, living gg-granddaughter seems to be alive. This is one, there are probably more. Daughter of (and probably son of) https://www.geni.com/people/Øyvin-Rye-Florentz/6000000006349061719?through=6000000006349238278

One of the administrators of this account is ggg grandson.

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Anton Hagelee]

8 minutes ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

 

Closer relatives to Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun exist on Geni, living gg-granddaughter seems to be alive. This is one, there are probably more. Daughter of https://www.geni.com/people/Øyvin-Rye-Florentz/6000000006349061719?through=6000000006349238278

 

Very good find. Leaving out the name of #1 since she is still alive gives this route,

 

1. ?

2. Olaf Rye Florentz b. 1873; d. 1962

3. Henrietta Laura Bruun b. October 23, 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway; d. 1912, Kviteseid, Kviteseid, Telemark, Norway

4. Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun b. 1807, Kristiansand, Vest-Agder, Norway; d. 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway

5. Arnt Bruun b. September 21, 1752, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 1, 1831, Christiansand, Norway

6. Christian Christiansen Bruun, Sr. b. February 12, 1709, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. February 1796, Porsgrunn, Telemark, Norway

 

What relationship does that give to a candidate from the William H Brown family.

 

 

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

14 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

 

Very good find. Leaving out the name of #1 since she is still alive gives this route,

 

1. ?

2. Olaf Rye Florentz b. 1873; d. 1962

3. Henrietta Laura Bruun b. October 23, 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway; d. 1912, Kviteseid, Kviteseid, Telemark, Norway

4. Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun b. 1807, Kristiansand, Vest-Agder, Norway; d. 1842, Arendal, Aust-Agder, Norway

5. Arnt Bruun b. September 21, 1752, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. March 1, 1831, Christiansand, Norway

6. Christian Christiansen Bruun, Sr. b. February 12, 1709, Larvik, Vestfold, Norway; d. February 1796, Porsgrunn, Telemark, Norway

 

What relationship does that give to a candidate from the William H Brown family.

 

 

 

A gg-granddaughter/son of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun would be 3. cousin to topic starter Louise - if her ggrandfather Wilhelm H. Brown is Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's son.

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Louise Ober]

Dear amazing researchers,

 

Thank you for all of this detailed information.

 

Bear with me, let's see if I follow the DNA testing suggestion:

DNA testing is being suggested as a means to investigate the candidacy of Henrik Wilhem Wright Bruun ("HWW Bruun") (I believe first proposed by Richard), as my relative.  Before turning to that, however, I want to make sure I understand why HWW Bruun is of interest. From what has been reported, the interest is because HWW Bruun MAY turn out to be the father of an "out-of-wedlock" son, born in or around 1832 in Larvik, and possibly with a name similar to my relative. This "out-of-wedlock" son might turn out to be my g-grandfather (e.g., perhaps after he Anglicised his name to William H Brown), is that right?  And also, to be clear, one reason we are interested in him is at this point is because of the similarity of his "multiple names" to my relative, the fact that his father is from Larvik, and the fact that as Gry Onarheim Dahlmo pointed out, he may have worked in Larvik as a grocer around 1829 (and the fact that there is not yet another CONFIRMED suspect), yes? 

 

And, the 2 recommended types of DNA research for testing this theory are: 

(1) Y-DNA testing, which Anton and others recommend in this case because there is an an already-tested relative of HWW Bruun who has a rare Haplogroup N. The advantage of this testing is that it has already been done on the Norway side (yes?). The stated challenge would be finding a son-son-son line in the US, and thanks to Egil (also Anton) it seems there may be a couple of candidates, namely Eric and Chris Brown (sons of Raymond H Brown who can be traced directly via male-only line to my WHB).  So if we wanted to go this route we/I would have to find and test either Eric or Chris. Which I'd be willing to do at some point, by the way. And then compare it to this person (below), for example?

 

3 hours ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

The person who has done Y-DNA test, is a descendant of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's grandfather (fifth great grandson of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's grandfather as far as I can se).

 

(2) Autosomal testing, presumably done by me (easy enough), and a "close" ancestor of HWW Bruun, within a certain generational "tolerance" to be effective. Autosomal testing can be done by females and males, but it can only help within 4(?) or so generations. Inger Karin in her last post has indicated that a gg-grandchild like Olaf Rye Florentz (the younger one) could be tested for this purpose (3rd cousin). 

2 hours ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

A gg-granddaughter/son of Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun would be 3. cousin to topic starter Louise - if her ggrandfather Wilhelm H. Brown is Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's son.

 Sorry, I'm a little unclear whether any of these "close" relatives of HWW Bruun has had autosomal testing yet, or not? Or would that be a further inquiry?

 

I am still not sure I follow all the cM numbers and percentages in the charts that show how likely the relationships are (shout out to Anton for the chart, that helps!) - I believe several of you have recommended consulting a DNA testing expert (like David Witterberg Howden) if we were to go either of these routes. 

 

NOTE:  It may be also, as Egil has pointed out, that we have an autosomal candidate in the current resident of Østre Lindhjem farm (Nils Mathis Lindhjem), if that fellow is not able to prove, or disprove, that Hans Hansen = WHB.  We could be third cousins, I believe. 

 

(I'm sorry if I failed to properly credit anyone in this thread, thank you, I know you have all contributed!)

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Louise Ober

[Louise Ober]

22 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

The boy's name was Raymond Gordon Brown;

 

Denver Post Wednesday, Dec 19, 1917 Denver, CO Page 6

Great stuff you found, Egil!  (But what a horrible accident, this must have been so devastating for the whole family! I had never heard anything about this relative before.) 

[Louise Ober]

21 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

 

Turns out there is 😊 - read Raymond H Brown's OBIT from 2013.

 

• William H Brown
  • Herbert E Brown
    • Raymond G Brown
      • Raymond H Brown
        • Sons & grandsons

 

Wow, this is great discovery, thank you!  

 

[Louise Ober]

20 hours ago, Anton Hagelee said:

Digest this for a little and see how you feel. I know it is a lot to grasp, which is why the Y-DNA route is so much simpler

I have been "digesting" - and I think I have a slight headache. 🤣

But thank you for the explanation!!!

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Louise Ober

[Anton Hagelee]

32 minutes ago, Louise Ober said:

Bear with me, let's see if I follow the DNA testing suggestion:

DNA testing is being suggested as a means to investigate the candidacy of Henrik Wilhem Wright Bruun ("HWW Bruun") (I believe first proposed by Richard), as my relative.  Before turning to that, however, I want to make sure I understand why HWW Bruun is of interest. From what has been reported, the interest is because HWW Bruun MAY turn out to be the father of an "out-of-wedlock" son, born in or around 1832 in Larvik, and possibly with a name similar to my relative. This "out-of-wedlock" son might turn out to be my g-grandfather (e.g., perhaps after he Anglicised his name to William H Brown), is that right?  And also, to be clear, one reason we are interested in him is at this point is because of the similarity of his "multiple names" to my relative, the fact that his father is from Larvik, and the fact that as Gry Onarheim Dahlmo pointed out, he may have worked in Larvik as a grocer around 1829 (and the fact that there is not yet another CONFIRMED suspect), yes? 

 

Yes

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

32 minutes ago, Louise Ober said:

And, the 2 recommended types of DNA research for testing this theory are: 

(1) Y-DNA testing, which Anton and others recommend in this case because there is an an already-tested relative of HWW Bruun who has a rare Haplogroup N. The advantage of this testing is that it has already been done on the Norway side (yes?).

 

 

Yes 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

36 minutes ago, Louise Ober said:

 Sorry, I'm a little unclear whether any of these "close" relatives of HWW Bruun has had autosomal testing yet, or not? Or would that be a further inquiry?

 

At the bottom of the DNA details page for Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun is a section called 

 

Autosomal DNA (close relatives only)

This section contains the names of the six people that have  had an Autosomal Test. There may be more relatives but these six are called out in the profile. 

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Henrik-Wilhelm-Wright-Bruun/6000000011300076328#/tab/dna/scroll

 

 

 

Endret Juni 27, 2022 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

43 minutes ago, Louise Ober said:

The stated challenge would be finding a son-son-son line in the US, and thanks to Egil (also Anton) it seems there may be a couple of candidates, namely Eric and Chris Brown (sons of Raymond H Brown who can be traced directly via male-only line to my WHB).  So if we wanted to go this route we/I would have to find and test either Eric or Chris. Which I'd be willing to do at some point, by the way. And then compare it to this person (below), for example

 

Yes 

 

I think we probably got through your questions with no headache inducing answers. 

[Louise Ober]

50 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

 

At the bottom of the DNA details page for Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun is a section called 

 

Autosomal DNA (close relatives only)

This section contains the names of the six people that have  had an Autosomal Test. There may be more relatives but these six are called out in the profile. 

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Henrik-Wilhelm-Wright-Bruun/6000000011300076328#/tab/dna/scroll

 

 

 

Oh, I found it, thank you, Anton!!!!

[Louise Ober]

43 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

 

Yes 

 

I think we probably got through your questions with no headache inducing answers. 

Yes, and what an unexpected, exciting journey you all are providing!  Terrific detective work chasing down the son-to-son possibility in the US.  It had me on the edge of my seat (i.e., is there a living male-line only descendant from WHB?) until the final revelation.  (However, I was slightly devastated to learn that my grandmother's 37 year old brother was blown up during "hand grenade practice" while stationed in California during WWI  - how sad). I doubt my mother knew these gruesome details, but who knows, Boston families have traditionally been very private.

[Inger Karin Haarbye]

The Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's out-of-wedlock son theory is interesting, but we have no indication yet that such a son ever existed (yes, we have tried to find him!). Y-DNA would probably give the answer if this could be a possible theory.

 

Personally I would start with the Hans Hansen theory.

 

1) Hans Hansen is a real person

2) His birth date and place matches information given by William H Brown

3) He emigrated, probably around 1850 and lived his life in US.

4) He was in Norway in 1885 "at the same time" as William H Brown (after Hans Sørensen's death)

5) He is the only real candidate we have found so far

6) A candidate for autosomal DNA test is available (if he is willing to do the test)

 

His name does not match at all, but it was common to change name when coming to US.

This facts makes me want to know more about him, to confirm or disprove this theory.

I know several here disagree with me, and that is OK.

Endret Juni 28, 2022 av Inger Karin Haarbye

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

På 25.6.2022 den 11.24, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

 

This is an important reminder.

 

The Hans Hansen Lindhjem investigations should alternatively aim for falsifying the assumption that he was the same person William Brown. Personally, I'm curious about what happened to Hans Hansen Lindhjem in the US, regardless if he was William Brown, or not.

 

1 time siden, Inger Karin Haarbye skrev:

The Henrik Wilhelm Wright Bruun's out-of-wedlock son theory is interesting, but we have no indication yet that such a son ever existed (yes, we have tried to find him!). Y-DNA would probably give the answer if this could be a possible theory.

 

Personally I would start with the Hans Hansen theory.

 

1) Hans Hansen is a real person

2) His birth date and place matches information given by William H Brown

3) He emigrated, probably around 1850 and lived his life in US.

4) He was in Norway in 1885 "at the same time" as William H Brown (after Hans Sørensen's death)

5) He is the only real candidate we have found so far

6) A candidate for autosomal DNA test is available (if he is willing to do the test)

 

His name does not match at all, but it was common to change name when coming to US.

This facts makes me want to know more about him, to confirm or disprove this theory.

I know several here disagree with me, and that is OK.

 

Back at home after some days in the mountains.... 
Inger Karin: then you may start with this theory 🙂 -I have a new possible candidate and will post the info I've already found on him before I'm going for holiday on Friday, in Nordland.

Endret Juni 28, 2022 av Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

26 minutter siden, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

 .... I have a new possible candidate and will post the info I've already found on him ....

 

Hans Henrik Bruun - parents Andreas Ferdinand Bruun and Marie Christine Hartvig.

 

Name and date of birth incorrect ref the info from US, but still worth some investigations, I think. He and the siblings lost their parents before age 5 and it would be interesting to learn who took care of the children? I can't find "Overformynderi arkiver" for Larvik, but perhaps members with far better knowledge than me to Larvik/Vestfold area may assist?
I also e-mailed Larvik Sjømannsforening (Sea men society) for more info but so far no answer.
I know this candidate probably is a looong shot - but it seems to be almost no info on this candidate, so if he is not our WHB, then my links may be helpful for others in the future.

 

1: Born in Larvik 27/9-1828:

 

Larvik kirkebøker, SAKO/A-352/F/Fa/L0002: Parish register (official) no. I 2, 1825-1847, p. 22
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061117020086

2: His mother died 1833: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001915330

 

3: His father died before April 1834: https://www.nb.no/items/524ba88f511dcbef961581aecc2bcd8f?page=5&searchText="ferdinand bruun"

 

He was a skipper/shipmaster and died in a shipwreck (listed somewhere in the probate record).

Born in Copenhagen and educated in Denmark: http://www.skippere.dk/?page=relation/person_info&person_id=9609

Also listed with the other candidates father - https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2014060638065?page=127&searchText=bruun

 

 

4: Probate records - ref register: 539 (mothers death - 3 children at 5, 3 and 23 days old - name of their "guardian" Henning Astrup?), 600, 603, 604, 659, 697, 768:

Larvik byfogd, SAKO/A-218/H/Hb/Hbc/L0003: Skifteforhandlingsprotokoll III, 1829-1836, p. 538-539
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20081223340272

5: Confirmation record Larvik 1845:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/279/pk00000001573175

Larvik kirkebøker, SAKO/A-352/F/Fa/L0002: Ministerialbok nr. I 2, 1825-1847, s. 204
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061117020229

6: Sea men rolls: 1852 Mate at sea - 1853 Escaped from skipper Abrahamsen - 1855 escaped again?

 

 

 

Larvik innrulleringskontor, SAKO/A-787/F/Fa/L0001: Hovedrulle, 1836-1860, p. 78
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ru10051001044072

7: Same person in UK 1850?:

 

Hans Brúun in the England, Dreadnought Seamen's Hospital Admissions and Discharges, 1826-1930:
- 1850 and 6 years at sea (they often went to sea at confirmation age)

 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/64045:61093?tid=&pid=&queryId=5e0c604a8e124833490aca65f2b1216f&_phsrc=NIZ17&_phstart=successSource

 

8: William H Brown in the U.S., Civil War Pension Index: General Index to Pension Files, 1861-1934:
- may this pension file can provide more info?

 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/5523892:4654

 

9: Several W. Brown born in Norway in these records - may someone have more time than me to check:

 

U.S., Naval Enlistment Rendezvous, 1855-1891

U.S., Naval Hospital Tickets and Case Papers, 1825-1889

U.S., Registers of Patients at Naval Hospitals, 1812-1934

U.S., Civil War Pension Index: General Index to Pension Files, 1861-1934

 

10: Geni: https://www.geni.com/people/Andreas-Ferdinand-Bruun/6000000010008655199

 

 

[Richard Olsen]

Final points on the DNA discussion

 

1. Inger incorrectly commented that Louise and the other person would be third-cousins. Actually, it would be half-third-cousins (William being illegitimate - a different mother). That could decrease the number of cMs, in line with 4th, 5th, 6th cousins.

 

2. The reason it would be wise to take a DNA test is for the possibllity of relatively high number of cMs. If this occurs, it would decrease the generational gap, easing the way to prove the relationship.

 

3. A DNA test would be useful for comparison with Henrich W Bruun's descendants, and Hans Sorensen's descendants

 

4. Important DNA knowledge. With the exception of high cMs numbers, DNA alone can not prove a genetic relationship between 2 or more people. The involved parties would have to compare ancestry in an attempt to determine the relationship.

Endret Juni 28, 2022 av Richard Olsen