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Request for help locating great-grandfather in Larvik in mid-1800s


Louise Ober

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8 hours ago, Egil Johannessen said:

Anne Malene was mentioned. Hans Sørensen's wife not. She died in 1877 btw.

Oh, sorry, Egil, I meant that neither Anne nor Hans (a/k/a William?) were mentioned by name in the longer newspaper obituary you and Sven provided (although they did mention the son-in-law, Thore), the one in which it is discussed that Hans Sørensen had recently written to his son in America.

 

I did see that Anne and Thore were listed in the shorter death announcement.  🙂

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On 6/20/2022 at 8:36 PM, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

Some bygdebok-authors omitted children assumed to have died as children, probably to shorten the text. But in this case, the assumption that Hans died as a child, seems to be wrong.

I would like to ask a question about Kristian's comment comparing Hans Sorenson's family as listed in the Lingum Ostre (found by Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo), where Hans has only 4 children, and the longer list of the 8 children provided by Sven (because we were looking for 8 children, as indicated by the 8 "barn" mentioned in Hans Sorenson's obituary). Neither Hans nor his older brother Soren are on the Lingum Ostre list. Well, ok. But also each girl's name is listed only once. 

 

So my question is really about why in Sven's list, Anne Malene and Inger Petrea appear twice.  This is very accurate reporting from him because the records indicate different birth dates for Anne Malene #1 and #2, and for Inger Petrea #1 and #2.  But is it possible #1 and #2 Anne, and #1 and #2 Inger, are the same person?  Or if those girls are indeed different, and need to be counted independently to add up to Hans S's "8" children, maybe the first Anne or Inger died and the parents named the next daughter after the prior one?  Why else would a Norwegian family give girls the same name one after the other?  

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8 timer siden, Louise Ober skrev:

But is it possible #1 and #2 Anne, and #1 and #2 Inger, are the same person?

 

No.

 

8 timer siden, Louise Ober skrev:

Or if those girls are indeed different, and need to be counted independently to add up to Hans S's "8" children, maybe the first Anne or Inger died and the parents named the next daughter after the prior one?

 

Yes.

 

Anne Malene b. 1834 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037783130

Died 1835, on top, right hand side - Vestfold county, Tjølling in Tjølling, Parish register (official) no. 5 (1814-1836), Deceased and buried 1836, Page 220-221, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070427630330

 

Anne Malene b. 1836 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000038642177

Died 1911 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001584439

 

Inger Petrea b. 1842 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000038643089

Died 1843 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000006482380

 

Inger Petrea b. 1844 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000038643419

Died 1871, # 16 - Vestfold county, Tjølling in Tjølling, Parish register (official) no. 7 (1860-1876), Deceased and buried 1871, Page 295, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051017050904

 

On the same page, # 2 (died 29 Dec 1870), Henrik Morten Hansen (in the Bygdebok he's referred to as Hans Martin which is incorrect) - Vestfold county, Tjølling in Tjølling, Parish register (official) no. 7 (1860-1876), Deceased and buried 1871, Page 295, Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051017050904

 

Henrik Morten was b. 1848 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000038644148

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Maren Kirstine b. 1839 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000038642486

Died 1855 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000006483175

 

Søren b. 1829 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037782437

His death not found, but must have died between 1865 & 1885.

 

Hans b. 1832 - https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037782770

 

In total; 8 children.

Edited by Egil Johannessen
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I have a non-genealogy interest in this thread

 

There is no document available that would prove that Hans Hansen changed his name to William H Brown.

 

The ever so slight chance that Hans Hansen is William H Brown could only be proven by DNA.

 

Actually, I have seen indicators that Hans Hansen is not William H Brown.

 

There was impressive sleuthing on this thread.

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På 22.6.2022 den 2.23, Egil Johannessen skrev:

As I wrote in my previous post; I've requested the probate record for Hans Sørensen from the Archives - it will take some time (2-4 weeks) before I receive a reply. Hopefully the record will give an answer regarding the name of the son.

 

As far as I know the service levels of The National Archives, you will be asked to look up the probate record yourself, as there are no restrictions when it comes to archive documents this old.

 

Question is, however, whether there is a probate record for Hans Sørensen at all. As all the heirs were of legal age, they could probably take care of everything themselves.

 

Hans Sørensen sold his property to his son-in-law Tore Andersen in 1871 and at the same time made an agreement (oppholdskontrakt) with him regarding care for the rest of the lifetime for Hans Sørensen and Maren Sofie Hansdatter. This is shown in the mortgage register: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20061113010959

I was eager to look up the full texts of the deed and the agreement in the mortgage book. The full texts should be listed at page 2 in mortgage book for 1871-1875, but unfortunately page 1-18 is lost: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20061128070605

 

Still, the mortgage register says that Tore Andersen had to borrow parts of the purchase price from his father-in-law, and that this loan was called off in 1885. The full text is here, starting at the bottom of the right part of the spread: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20061129020565

 

The text goes on to the next spread, where the name Hans Hansen occurs. He states that he has received NOK 1302,70, which was his half. The document date is August 3rd 1885.

 

Thus, Hans Sørensen's son Hans Hansen seems to have been present at Lindhjem / Lingum on August 3rd 1885, going by the name of Hans Hansen.

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Excellent work Kristian!

 

Question; do you know if the death register (dødsfallsprotokoll) existed for Tjølling before 1886? Scanned starts in 1886 - LINK

 

It has to be said though, reading the protocol from 1886, that children were not mentioned by name.

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When he died, he had only 2 children (Dagbladet 28. mars 1885), the daughter at Lindhjem and a son living in America?

Here Hans  is leaving Tjølling in 1848, to Arendal? (I can't read the all.) #10:

Vestfold county, Tjølling in Tjølling, Parish register (official) no. 6 (1835-1859), In- and out-migrated 1849, Page 428
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051017050375
Permanent image-link: https://urn.digitalarkivet.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20051017050375.jpg

 

Edited by Inger Karin Haarbye
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12 minutter siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

Question; do you know if the death register (dødsfallsprotokoll) existed for Tjølling before 1886? Scanned starts in 1886 - LINK

 

The death register starting in 1886 is labeled no. 1, so if there were older registers, they didn't survive or at least they are unknown to the archive. Archive catalogues are to be found in Arkivportalen (archive finding aid): https://www.arkivportalen.no/entity/no-a1450-04000000183538

 

One should be aware of the existence of protocols of reported deaths (dødsanmeldelsesprotokoller), starting in 1856, in the archive of Larvik sorenskriveri: https://www.arkivportalen.no/entity/no-a1450-04000000032608

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9 minutter siden, Inger Karin Haarbye skrev:

When he died, he had only 2 children (Dagbladet 28. mars 1885), the daughter at Lindhjem and a son living in America?

Here Hans  is leaving Tjølling in 1848, to Arendal? (I can't read the all.) #10:

Vestfold county, Tjølling in Tjølling, Parish register (official) no. 6 (1835-1859), In- and out-migrated 1849, Page 428
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051017050375
Permanent image-link: https://urn.digitalarkivet.no/URN:NBN:no-a1450-kb20051017050375.jpg

 

Posted previously by Sven;

 

Furthermore I posted this on page 4;

"He migrated from Tjølling in 1848 to Arendal?, and just to be sure of the full text, I've posted it on the forum; Transcription of scanned sources (LINK)."

 

The answer in the Transcription of scanned sources (thanks to @Ivar S. Ertesvåg )

 

 

 

 

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57 minutter siden, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) skrev:

Thus, Hans Sørensen's son Hans Hansen seems to have been present at Lindhjem / Lingum on August 3rd 1885, going by the name of Hans Hansen.

 

This does not prevent the possibility that Hans Hansen was identical with William Brown leaving Norway on August 6th 1885. Actually, it's a credible timeline: Hans Hansen and Tore Andersen sort things out on August 3rd, and then Hans immediately leaves for the US. But it could be just a coincidence.

 

Besides, if Hans Hansen really was William Brown, this indicates that he will go by the name of Hans Hansen (and not by the name of William Brown) in all contexts that connect him to his family. Thus, it will probably be hard to find evidence that can support an assumption that Hans Hansen was William Brown.

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6 hours ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

The text goes on to the next spread, where the name Hans Hansen occurs. He states that he has received NOK 1302,70, which was his half. The document date is August 3rd 1885.

Thank you, Kristian, for the interesting details about the transfer of the family property from Hans S to Thore in 1871 (plus the conditions to care for the in-laws), and the settlement of the mortgage upon the death of Hans S.  Presumably (some of) the money came from the July auction/sale of movable property.

 

When you say Hans stated that he received "his half," does that mean that half the inheritance (after the loan was repaid or forgiven) went to the son-on-law/daughter Anne, and the other half went to Hans? 

 

Would NOK 1302,70 have been a lot, a little, or a moderate amount of money in 1885?  

(Enough to, say, make a down payment on a new house in Boston? 🙂 WHB moved homes in Boston between 1885 and 1900.)

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5 hours ago, Kristian Hunskaar (privat) said:

This does not prevent the possibility that Hans Hansen was identical with William Brown leaving Norway on August 6th 1885. Actually, it's a credible timeline: Hans Hansen and Tore Andersen sort things out on August 3rd, and then Hans immediately leaves for the US. But it could be just a coincidence.

 

Besides, if Hans Hansen really was William Brown, this indicates that he will go by the name of Hans Hansen (and not by the name of William Brown) in all contexts that connect him to his family. Thus, it will probably be hard to find evidence that can support an assumption that Hans Hansen was William Brown.

The timeline is quite fascinating, and although we don't seem to have concrete proof that Hans Hansen and WHB are the same person, there is at least some credible, circumstantial evidence. I don't want to rehash everything, but I note:

1. The circumstances under which Hans Hansen left Norway as a teenager (from Larvik or Arendal) around 1850 suggest he was trying to escape a military draft, and would not have been looking to return any time soon. 

2. Regardless of his birth name, the Norwegian William H Brown from Larvik does not appear to have returned to Norway since he left in 1850 (do we we know this for sure?). 

3. Hans S's obituary refers to correspondence with his "son in America" during the latter years of his (Hans S's) life, especially. Upon his death in 1885 we know this son in America was the only one of his 2 living children. 

4. Hans S's death in March 1885 seems to have been relatively sudden, or at least not preceded by a long illness (if he'd known his father had an extended illness, perhaps Hans Hansen would have showed up sooner).

5. If WHB were to have received word of his father's death in March/April, it makes sense that he would have made arrangements to return quickly to Norway, to be part of the probate and settling of the property and estate.

6. I take it we are unsure of when WHB arrived in Norway, but there is a May 9 Hekla departure from New York to Christiania, "departed from New York with a party of about 500 Scandinavians, nearly all of whom were returning to their homes in the old country for a short visit." Perhpas this was the ship William took to go back to Norway - it was the same ship he took to go back to the US. http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=heklb  Not sure if there are passenger records from that trip? 

7. The father's property is auctioned off in July 1885.

8. On August 3, the son, Hans Hansen, apparently in person, signs a mortgage settlement agreement and accepts the inheritance payment. 

9. On August 6, a WHB (age 55, same age as Hans Hansen born in 1832) sails back to New York on the Hekla (arrives Aug 19). One might ask, why else would WHB have made a trip to Norway during this time?!?

10.  The following October, 1886, Melissa Morgan (WHB's wife) gives birth to their last child, Louise Brown (my grandmother). I include this detail because, if Louise had been born much earlier in 1886, it is unlikely WHB would have been in Norway in the summer of 1885. 😄 (Their youngest child, Walter, age 2, had just died in January 1885; one could speculate about the effects of the death of a son and a father in the same year, in perhaps wanting one more child.) 

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Hans Sørensen has most likely living descendants, and DNA-test could give an answer. Tjølling bygdebok. 2 : Gårder og slekter p. 574 lists Anne Malene's children, and their son Nils Kristian is next user of the farm. Marta Marie is his daughter (Hans Sørensen's great grand daughter). She has 5 children born 1951-1955.

 

https://www.geni.com/people/Martha-Marie-Lindhjem/6000000081749445948

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Quote

Would NOK 1302,70 have been a lot, a little, or a moderate amount of money in 1885?  

(Enough to, say, make a down payment on a new house in Boston? 🙂 WHB moved homes in Boston between 1885 and 1900.)


Based on the Price calculator https://www.norges-bank.no/tema/Statistikk/Priskalkulator/ and current exchange rate,
the value of the inheritance would be about $10249,08 in current money. 
However, housing prices in an area can change a lot, and differently from the general inflation.

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På 20.6.2022 den 10.42, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

 

Marriage in Egersund, Rogaland 1837:

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000001016159

Egersund sokneprestkontor, SAST/A-101807/S08/L0009: Ministerialbok nr. A 9, 1827-1850, s. 367
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051208010654

 

Daughter born 1838 in Mandal, Vest-Agder: 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000036754287

Mandal sokneprestkontor, SAK/1111-0030/F/Fa/Faa/L0011: Ministerialbok nr. A 11, 1830-1839, s. 107
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060106030808


Daughter born 1840 in Egersund, Rogaland:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000002375316

Egersund sokneprestkontor, SAST/A-101807/S08/L0009: Ministerialbok nr. A 9, 1827-1850, s. 101
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20051208010374

 

Daughter born 1842 in Arendal, Aust-Agder (her father died before baptism):

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/255/pd00000038224583

Øyestad sokneprestkontor, SAK/1111-0049/F/Fa/L0013: Ministerialbok nr. A 13, 1827-1842, s. 191
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060113040192

 

According to a GENI-profile, HWB' father was born in Larvikhttps://www.geni.com/people/Henrik-Wilhelm-Wright-Bruun/6000000011300076328

 

Should we search for a possible birth of an illegitimate son (William Henry ca 1832), before his marriage in Egersund 1837?

 

This candidate as father to William H. Brown, HWB (Hendrich Wilhelm Bruun), became a citizen as grocer in Larvik 1829 ref the book:

"Kjøpstaden Larviks kommunalpolitik og byens ledende mænd. Første avdeling : Perioden 1671 til og med 1874"

 

image.thumb.png.435133e5e92ec32eb425d3bdbe36c9dc.png

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På 14.6.2022 den 2.15, Louise Ober skrev:
... I apologize that I do not speak or read Norwegian, so any help would have to be provided in English....

 

I think there would be more members interesting in this discussion and perhaps with better knowledge to the topic, if you could "accept" answers in Norwegian?
The American members can use google translate and ask the members for translation if google make no sense...

 

May we should leave the farmer in Tjølling for a while and go back to the seamen in Larvik?
I have another candidate but many links and writing - would appreciate to write in Norwegian 🙂

Edited by Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo
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8 minutter siden, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

if you could "accept" answers in Norwegian?

 

I think you should just go ahead and post in Norwegian, I can help translate and I'm sure others can as well.

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7 timer siden, Louise Ober skrev:

The timeline is quite fascinating, and although we don't seem to have concrete proof that Hans Hansen and WHB are the same person, there is at least some credible, circumstantial evidence. I don't want to rehash everything, but I note:

1. The circumstances under which Hans Hansen left Norway as a teenager (from Larvik or Arendal) around 1850 suggest he was trying to escape a military draft, and would not have been looking to return any time soon. 

2. Regardless of his birth name, the Norwegian William H Brown from Larvik does not appear to have returned to Norway since he left in 1850 (do we we know this for sure?). 

3. Hans S's obituary refers to correspondence with his "son in America" during the latter years of his (Hans S's) life, especially. Upon his death in 1885 we know this son in America was the only one of his 2 living children. 

4. Hans S's death in March 1885 seems to have been relatively sudden, or at least not preceded by a long illness (if he'd known his father had an extended illness, perhaps Hans Hansen would have showed up sooner).

5. If WHB were to have received word of his father's death in March/April, it makes sense that he would have made arrangements to return quickly to Norway, to be part of the probate and settling of the property and estate.

6. I take it we are unsure of when WHB arrived in Norway, but there is a May 9 Hekla departure from New York to Christiania, "departed from New York with a party of about 500 Scandinavians, nearly all of whom were returning to their homes in the old country for a short visit." Perhpas this was the ship William took to go back to Norway - it was the same ship he took to go back to the US. http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=heklb  Not sure if there are passenger records from that trip? 

7. The father's property is auctioned off in July 1885.

8. On August 3, the son, Hans Hansen, apparently in person, signs a mortgage settlement agreement and accepts the inheritance payment. 

9. On August 6, a WHB (age 55, same age as Hans Hansen born in 1832) sails back to New York on the Hekla (arrives Aug 19). One might ask, why else would WHB have made a trip to Norway during this time?!?

10.  The following October, 1886, Melissa Morgan (WHB's wife) gives birth to their last child, Louise Brown (my grandmother). I include this detail because, if Louise had been born much earlier in 1886, it is unlikely WHB would have been in Norway in the summer of 1885. 😄 (Their youngest child, Walter, age 2, had just died in January 1885; one could speculate about the effects of the death of a son and a father in the same year, in perhaps wanting one more child.) 

 

Great summary, Louise. 

 

@Inger Karin Haarbye enclosed a link to GENI. I have done some research and tracked down the children of Martha Marie Lindhjem. I've sent you a private e-mail.

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2 timer siden, Egil Johannessen skrev:

 

I think you should just go ahead and post in Norwegian, I can help translate and I'm sure others can as well.

 

Thanks, Egil - studied languages at high school, but practiced mostly German since then ...

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4 hours ago, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

This candidate as father to William H. Brown, HWB (Hendrich Wilhelm Bruun), became a citizen as grocer in Larvik 1829 ref the book:

"Kjøpstaden Larviks kommunalpolitik og byens ledende mænd. Første avdeling : Perioden 1671 til og med 1874"

 

image.thumb.png.435133e5e92ec32eb425d3bdbe36c9dc.png

 

Gry Onarheim Dahlmo

 

Thank you for diverting attention to my initial candidate. At least I was not completely snubbed here. I have found further relevant information, but will not post it due to the snubbing. So, I have undertaken a non-genealogy interest in this thread.

 

It may lead to nothing, but, as the saying goes, no stone should be left unturned.

 

This is a huge mistake that many people make when researching their family history. As soon as they find one candidate, they drop all of the other possibilities.

 

Kristian H needs to be given his props. As the saying goes, he went on and beyond his call of duty. This validates my statements on the greatness of the Digital Archives and  others.

 

Those land records were valuable when I was researching my family, but without registers, the searches can be time consuming. I also searched tax records, etc.

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8 hours ago, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

I think there would be more members interesting in this discussion and perhaps with better knowledge to the topic, if you could "accept" answers in Norwegian?


Takk, jeg vil ikke ekskludere andre som ønsker å bidra, men som kanskje ikke er komfortable med engelsk, spesielt hvis det er noen som kan hjelpe til med å oversette. (from Google Translate 😀)

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12 hours ago, Inger Karin Haarbye said:

Hans Sørensen has most likely living descendants,

@Inger Karin Haarbye  thank you, this is very interesting to learn! Thank you also for the attached GENI link to Marta Marie, daughter of Nils Kristian (and great granddaughter of Hans Sørenson).  

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8 hours ago, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

May we should leave the farmer in Tjølling for a while and go back to the seamen in Larvik?

Takk. Ja, det er et uttrykk på engelsk, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket," og jeg er enig i at det er bra å vurdere andre kandidater.

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The Henrich Wilhelm Bruun from Christiansand who was a grocer in Larvik seems to be listed here: https://genealogi.no/wiki/index.php/Bruun_(fra_Larvik)_(slekt)
There would have been rather a lot of Bruun's in the Larvik area if only every other of these reproduced themselves. 

 

Quote

Thank you, there is a lot of great information here. I appreciate the translation and explanation - how would I go about finding the address/location of this farm, #64, to see if it is still there in some form? (although your translation suggests there are no famly members left at the property)


I forgot to answer this question. The farm numer 64 is crucial. Now, the farm numbers in Tjølling have changed. But they changed in such a way that 1000 was added to the original number. https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Matrikkelgårder_i_tidligere_Tjølling_kommune
https://seeiendom.kartverket.no/eiendom/3805/1064/6/0/0 

There are currently two addresses for the farm formerly number 64: Lindhjemveien 416 and Lindhjemveien 418, both at 3280 TJODALYNG. There's a picture of Lignum Østre on this page https://dev.lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Lindhjemveien
Edit: See Kristian Hunskaar (privat)'s correction of the addresses later in this thread.

Incidently these farms are only about half an hour's drive from where I live, and my maternal grandfather's maternal grandmother Helvig Cathrine Hansen grew up on the neighbouring farm Annisrød. She was born in 1824 so she would have known Hans Hansen Lindheim as a child. I would not be at all surprised if they were  somehow related.

Edited by Inger Hohler
Referencing correction
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