[#13980] Still looking for 1770 Birth

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

I'm still trying to find the birth and baptismrecord for Ingeborg Pedersdatter, born 1770 inSjothun, Hafslo, Sogn og Fjordane. I found an Ingeborg with father's name Peder born in 1721and one in 1825, but can't find the one 1770.Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello Jennifer. I have been looking at your latest 3-4 questions and just wonder: This[url="http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=f11425.wc2&variabel=0&postnr=1337&fulle=true&spraak=n>Lenkeis the family which interest you. But what are your reasons for thinking that Ingeborg is born in Sjøtun?When the wedding takes place,

[Gjest Tove Almquist]

If you look at the wedding, one of the 'forlover' is named Lars Øvrebøe. If you look at the farm Øvrebøe in Hafslo in 1801 you find a Peder with family : Lenke

[Gjest Tor Andersen]

Jennifer - Pls use a more descriptive title on your postings when possible. In this case the name, location and year should be given.This makes it easier to get relevant help and also a search will identify your posting. A number is not searchable since that will give you a spesific posting.

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

That is the right family in the 1801 census. Ifound that one, too. The wedding is right too. But the family isn't because the age of Ingeborg Pedersdatter is off. She was born in 1770.Thank you, though, I'm getting to see what elseto look for. Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Jennifer: I think you are jumping to conclusions here. The most common reason why you don't find somebody that easily is that he/she is born outside marriage. You still have not given any argument why she should necessarily have been born in Hafslo. So what do we KNOW? We know, if the census is reliable, that Ingeborg is born round the year 1770, but not where. We know that this: [url="http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/webcens.exe?slag=visbase&filnamn=f11425.wc2&variabel=0&postnr=1337&fulle=true&spraak=n>Lenke is her family, and this: Lenke is the wedding. And we have strong reason to think that she has family ties to Lars Øvrebø, since he is best man at the wedding. In Øvrebø farm there is one Peder Larsen, my prime suspect of a father. He has a daughter Ingeborg Pedersdatter b ca 1785, which indicates that the name Ingeborg is in use in his family. So my (wild) guess is that Peder is after all the father. If you move a mere 44 kms (25 miles) north to Luster in S&F you find the following: Ingeborg Pedersdatter bapt 01.01.1770, parents: Peder Larsen, Anna Olsdatter

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Some additional information: there are no Peder Larsen married to Anna Olsdatter in Ft 1801 in Luster or Hafslo. There is one Anna Olsdatter 68 years marreied 1st time in Hafslo 1801, and one Anna Olsdatter 48 married 1st time to Ole Torchildsen (Kilen). This of course does not prove anything, but give some support to our suspicion of having found the right Ingeborg. It also suits nicely with Peder Laurssen Øvrebø being married in 1775. He is perhaps more likely to have had a child outside marriage before he married to Ragnilde Pedersdatter? Lenke But only checking the churchbook will solve this in a final way. pehå

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

Thanks for checking. I'm still looking,too.Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I must admit that I have a good stomach feeling about this connection, but only the Church records could confirm of falsify the theory. Do anybody out there have access to the church records (births) - Ingeborg Pedersdatter - in Luster, Sogn & Fjordane 1769?

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jennifer Richardson, Illinois, 20.03.2003 18:58 (1) Hi Per. I am getting some information on Ingeborg Pedersdatter. She was from the Leirdal farm inLuster parish of Luster County. Her records arenot computerized. She was baptized in Lusterparish on Jan. 1, 1770 and born out of wedlock,like the Family Search shows. Her parents wereAnna Olsdotter Leirdal and I'm still working onher father. I was told he was Peder OlsonDversdal, not Peder Larsen. I'm trying to findout through information from the Luster CountyHistory Book, Vol. IV(1991)under Farm#91,Leirdal, farum unit #2.Thank you for yourhelp! Jennifer --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jennifer Richardson, Illinois, 20.03.2003 19:50 (2) Hi Per. You were right! Your gut instinct told you that Ingeborg Pedersdatter's parents are AnnaOlsdater and Peder Larsen. Peder Larson died in1770, shortly after the birth of Ingeborg--whoknows what their plans might have been.So she has no birth record. I have her deathrecord, marriage record, and her in the 1801census married to Hans. I think you showed meanother record, too. I'll have to check back.Hope you read this. Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Trying to follow up my advice of putting everything into one forum, I continue our discussion in forum 14018 here.I must admit that you are confusing me now, and I'll give you my reasons. But first let me copy what you now say you know about Ingeborg, and I quote you: 'Hi Per. I am getting some information on Ingeborg Pedersdatter. She was from the Leirdal farm in Luster parish of Luster County. Her records are not computerized. She was baptized in Luster parish on Jan. 1, 1770 and born out of wedlock, like the Family Search shows. Her parents were Anna Olsdotter Leirdal and I'm still working on her father.' And you then refer to 'information from the Luster County History Book, Vol. IV(1991)under Farm 91,Leirdal, farm unit #2.' And then you add: 'Hi Per. You were right! Your gut instinct told you that Ingeborg Pedersdatter's parents are Anna Olsdatter and Peder Larsen. Peder Larson died in 1770, shortly after the birth of Ingeborg--who knows what their plans might have been. So she has no birth record. I have her death record, marriage record, and her in the 1801 census married to Hans. I think you showed me another record, too. I'll have to check back.'Now this is what confuses me: how do YOU know that this Ingeborg from Luster is identical to our Ingeborg in Hafslo? Is it because her baptism data fits with the marriage and death records? My gut feelings still is that she is the right one, but for reasons one of which you have just falsified! My reasons for believing she's the correct candidate were the following: (1) geographic proximity, Hafslo and Luster being easily accessible to each other by boat (and not at all by road!). (2) approximately the correct age. (3) my coup de grace argument: the Øvrebø connection, which you have just cut down! (But put that aside for the moment.) In the marriage in Hafslo in 1796 Hans Arnesen's best man (there were no 'best women' at that time!) was Lars Arnesen, and Ingeborg's was Lars Øvrebø. If we go to the farm Øvrebøe, Hafslo in FT 1801 we find Husbonde (Farmer) Peder Larsen 62 (i.e. born 1740), and his wife Ragnilla Pedersdatter 52, both in their first marriage, i.e. batchelor Peder Laursen Øvrebøe (father: Laurs)who married to Ranilde Pedersdatter (father: Peder) in 1775. Without knowing the precise identity of Lars Øvrebø he was still my final argument why said Peder Laursen (Larsen) could be the father of Ingeborg. So now I have to ask you: 1) how do you know that the Peder Larsen in Luster died in 1770, and is thus not identical to Peder Larsen Øvrebø? 2) Without this connection how do you manage to claim that Ingeborg Pedersdatter b 1769 = Ingeborg Pedersdatter b ca 1770 married in Hafslo? 3) There is no indication in FamilySearch that Anna Olsdatter and Peder Larsen were married, but no proof that Ingeborg was born outside wedlock either. But finding no trace of a wedding I assumed that she was 'illegitimate'. That fitted so well with my assumption that Peder Larsen in Luster 1770 = Peder Larsen married for the first time in Hafslo in 1775.Now my arguments nos (1) and (2) are still valid, and my gut feeling intact, but if you can confirm that Peder Larsen in Luster in fact died in Luster in 1770 then we (in this case I) have to accept that the two Peder Larsens were just a coincidence, and that the use of two best men from Hafslo at the wedding was due to her having no family in Hafslo. That is quite plausible, and still makes her a good candidate, though not for quite so solid reason!

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Oldervoll: wat happened to the format? Hva skjedde med formateringen av disse innleggene?

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Sorry - now I see the explanation, ref no 14018! Jennifer just did did what she promised to do while I was writing...

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

Hi Per. The information in the family search shows Ingeborg Pedersdatter born Jan. 1, 1770 in Luster with father Peder Larsen and mother Anna Olsdatter.I have data that shows that she was born out of wedlock, from the Luster County History book. more later. Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Thank you. If you look at the top of your first contribution, you'll see that originally you asked if somebody could find 'the birth and baptism record for Ingeborg Pedersdatter, born 1770 in Sjøthun, Hafslo, Sogn og Fjordane.' That is one reason why I needed a strong argument for Ingeborg born in Luster, who was really my candidate all the time, but I needed to augment that supposition with convincing argumentation. If you would comment my questions later it would be nice; it is strange how much you get engaged when you involve yourself in a search like this!

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

Hi Per. I'm not sure I am following everything, but this is what I have found. Hans Arneson's wife, Ingeborg Pedersdatter was born in Luster parish in Jan. 1, 1770, out of wedlock to the parents Peder Larson and Anna Olsdotter. Anna had 2 other illegitimate children. In 1774 Peder Olson fathered her 2nd illegitimate child. Peder Larson Svangstu died in 1770.So Ingeborg is from Luster. Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello again Jennifer. We seem to have been speaking beyond each other, so I try again. The problem was not Ingeborg's identity in Luster, but to prove that Ingeborg in Luster = Ingeborg in Hafslo. (Remember it was ME who offered you Ingeborg in Luster as a candidate!)Now I gave you three reasons why she might be the right person (see my contribution no 11): (1) geography: Luster is just two boatstops away from Hafslo (but was quite impossible to reach by road, at least at wintertime), (2) the age fits, (3) the original assumption that Peder Larsen in Luster = Peder Larsen (the older) in Hafslo. The last assumption turned out to be wrong. The reason why (3) was important was to explain why she had a garantor/best man from Hafslo (Øvrebø), though she was born in Luster. Being born not far away and at approximately at the right time is fine, but no proof. We need more than that to be certain. Even if you can quote the Luster Farm History that is not quite good enough, because they are a secondary source.I posed this question to Yngve Nedrebø at SAB/DA (the State Archives of Bergen/Digitaarkivet), see no 14012, and here is what he answered me, in translation, and I systematise:Ingeborg Pedersdtr, illegitimate, baptised in Luster 01.01.1770 by Parents Peder Larsen Svangsthue (1749-1770, Peder died unmarried at Svangstu) and Anna Olsdatter Leyrdahl (ca 1743 - d after 1801). Godparents: Johans Præstegaarden, Torchild Flatthun, Johanna Præstegaarden, Anna Præstegaarden, Britha Sandvig. Ingeborg's birth late in 1769 is not registrated, only the baptism. That half of the godparents came from the Priests farm (Præstegaarden, modern Norwegian Prestegården) MAY (but need not) indicate Anna's lack of family connections to Luster. Anna Olsdatter later on had two more children, as you say: Agathe Pedersdatter bpt 03.july 1774 and Peder bpt 01.jan 1783. Nedrebø finds the following information about Peder Larsen Svangstu in Luster Gards- og Ættesoge (Luster Farm- and Family history) Vol V pp 633. And in the same volume he finds on pp 923 more about their parents:Peder Larsen's parents: Lars Jørgensen Svangstu (ca 1685-1756) from Drevdal Nordre, and his second wife Martha Jansdatter Bjørk (ca 1717-1791).Anna Olsdatter's parents: Ole Endresen Leirdal from Opheim in Hafslo and Britha Iversdatter Rønnei.Now HERE we have the connection we need: Ingeborg's grandparents came from Hafslo! The other information we have had about Ingeborg gives us good reason to think she is the right candidate, but we need more than that to be certain. With this connection back to Hafslo, and the fact that Anna Olsdatter gave birth to Ingeborg at wintertime give us a reasonable picture of her situation, Peder Svangstu lived in Luster, Anna maybe worked there, and it would be difficult at winter's time to travel back to Hafslo even if she had family there.If you have additional proof that Ingeborg Luster=Ingeborg Hafslo I very much want to hear about it! I am sorry if you feel that I have been stubborn or intransigant here, but the worst thing you can do is to jump to conclusions and then continue backwords in time. You should dig until you are satisfied with the proofs, and I did not feel that we were quite there yet, and that I did you a service by demanding more proofs. Now when we know that her grandparents lived in Hafslo I think we can rest our case. (It would of course have been interesting to check up the godparents of Agathe and Peder against relatives in Hafslo, though.)/ph

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

Wow. You really got a lot of information here, Per Hakon. thank you for delving in to it! I now only got informatin that I needed on Ingeborg, but now I have her parents and their parents, too. I will add them to my ancestors and continue by research on my family tree. I am not mad at all for your wanting more proof, and what you found adds more to their story. Jennifer

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I hope (literally) you have a picture of where we are here: in Western Norway, by the Lustra Fjord on the way to Skjolden. This is a side branch of the Sogne Fjord. Here you find one of the most magnificient landscape in the world. With fjords, glaciers, mountain farms and viking time wooden stave churches, built by craftsmen only 2-3 generations after their ancestors discovered America in the year 1000. And a very tough place to survive at wintertime, and image a couple of hundred years ago... See f.ex. this link: [url="http://www.fjordnorway.com/DesktopDefault.aspx>http://www.fjordnorway.com/DesktopDefault.aspx and this:

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Here is some information, by and large taken from IGI (FamilySearch), so take it all with a grain of salt, I cannot confirm these details:Lars Jørgensen Svangstu (born ca 1685 Gaupne? - d 10. march 1756) m2 11. nov 1742 in Luster Martha Jansdatter Bjørk (ca 1717 - d 1791). Children: -Jørgen Larsen bpt 10. march 1743 -ANNA Larsdatter bpt 15. jan 1747 (OBS) (so perhaps 'ca 1743' really means born in the autumn 1746? Or they gave two girls the same name, not unusual.) -Peder Larsen bpt 08. march 1749 -Jan Larsen b about 1752 -Lars Larsen bpt 27. feb 1756Lars Jørgensen's parents: Jørgen Larssen m ca 1679 at Drevsdal Anna Olsdatter. Children: -Anna Jørgensdatter Nordre Drevsdal b ca 1680 - d 19. aug 1742 -LARS Jørgensen Nordre Drevsdal b ca 1685Martha Jansdatter's parents: Jan Pedersen, Eide in Luster b ca 1684 - d 06. july 1752 at Bjørk, m ca 1710 Anna Larsdatter b ca 1687 Skildheim in Luster - d 12. nov 1766 at Bjørk. Children: -Lars Jansen b ca 1714 at Eide -MARTHA Jansdatter b ca 1717 Eide -Kirsti Jansdatter b ca 1720 Eide -Ole Jansen b ca 1723 Eide -Ingrid b ca 1726 EideOle Endresen Leirdal and Britha Iversdatter Rønnei married in Luster 18. nov 1737. They seem to have the following children: Endre Olsen bpt 25.jan 1738 -ANNA Olsdatter b ca 1743 -Iver Olsen bpt 02. july 1745 - d 1810 -Ole Olsen bpt 1747 - d 1792 -Mari Olsdatter bpt 1749 - d 1803 -Bendich Olsen bpt 13. apr 1751 -Niels Olsen b 1753 - d 1807 -Lars Olsen b 1757 - d 1803- -Peder Olsen b 1762 - d 1777.

[Gjest Jennifer Richardson]

Thank you. I'll try looking them up tomorrow in the census and in family search. Jennifer