[#19691] Searching for Tosten Gulbrandsen (ca1745)

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Searching for Tosten Gulbrandsen (ca1745)Please help me trace my ancestor Tosten Gulbrandsen?Tosten Gulbrandsen was born around 1745. I have not been able to find when or where he was born.I expected to find him born in Lier, Buskerud but a search of their churchbooks has found nothing.There are other family lines from Vestfold so a search there may be useful.He married Else Nilsdtr on 6th April 1780 in Lier, in the Frogner parish. I have had someone look in the churchbook for me and they found that Tosten was living at Landfald-haugen, at the farm of Landfald.Else Nilsdtr was living in Myrehagen.In the Bygdebok for Lier (book 2, page 107) I found in Norwegian:“Tosten Gulbrandsen, f. ca. 1745, g. m. Else Nilsdtr., f. ca. 1751. Av barn nevnes Gulbrand, Nils og Ellen. Det er uvisst om Tosten hadde overtatt plassen før 1779. Han fikk fornyet sin festeseddel i 1799 på samme vilkår som Isak Jørgensen på Landfald bare med den forskjell at avgifta her var 10 dlr. Tosten ble ved Høyesteretts dom 303 1803 dømt til å fravike plassen, og solgte derfor i 1804 husa for 185 dlr. Til”This family appear on the 1801 census for Norway, living at Frogner parish farm.Else Nilsdtr was born about 1751. She was baptised in Lier on 24th June 1752. I do not know which parish. Her father was Niels Borgersen. I have traced her family back many generations.Any help to find Tosten’s birth date and place would be appreciated.Chris Nilsen.

[Gjest Jeff Erickson]

Hi,According to family search there was a Tosten born 17 june 1742 in Braernes, Drammen, Buskerud, Norway and another Tosten born 28 Jan 1748 at Norderhov, Buskerud Norway. There was a Taasten born 03 Oct 1750 in Sigdal, Buskerud

[Gjest Trond Myrstad]

Tosten born 1742 is the most probable candidate. Bragernes is close to Lier, while Norderhov and Sigdal is quite a distance north of Lier.

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

A lot of people from Norderhoug and Sigdal moved to Bragernes and Lier.When you look at the names of the children you will see they used the names of the grandparents, and started with his family so my guess is: since it is only one girl and I belive it is after the mother of Tosten.But of course it could also be after their own mother.Tosten bapt. 28/1 1748 Norderhaug father Gulbrand Weme and mother Elie. Ellen is very often mixed with Elie.Tosten born in Sigdal (Kroken) died the same year as he was born.Maybe it is possible for someone to take a look in the book 'Ringerikske slekter' under Weme.

[Gjest Inger Tysland]

Just a small correction. Bragernes was a part of Lier in 1740 - 1800. To day Bragernes belongs to Drammen.Inger

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Dear Berit,Thank you for the information.Would you be able to clarify what you mean by looking at the names of the children and how they have used the grandparents?I found that there was a farm in Norderhov named 'Weme'. I assume that Gulbrand Weme was his farm name and that his surname was something different. Would this be correct?I found on familysearch 3 other Gulbrands all with different surnames.What should I do next to confirm this Tosten Gulbrandsen is my ancestor?Chris Nilsen.

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

Hello Chris.Sorry, but I have not seen your question before now. My computer has been down twice.I'll see what I can do to help you next week (tuesday?.

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Dear Berit,I have a further question which relates to the fact that Ellen Tostensen appears as a son not a daughter in both the 1801 and 1815 census for Lier.I would assume then that he wasn't named after his mother/grandmother or were sons occaisionally given names like their grandmothers?Any help in these matters would be good.I want to make sure I have he correct ancestor.Thanking you.Chris Nilsen.

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

I found nothing in the books Ringerikske slekter. It is only the owners and their family who is mentioned under Weme. It was a lot of Tosten, but at the wrong time and wrong father.I have been looking at Lier and the children and their godparents.1)Gulbrand bpt.25/3 1781 Landfaldhaugen. Godparents: Haagen Nilsen Sørums wife, Guri, Gunnild Amundsdt. Ask, Gunder Pedersen Egge, sold.Niels Gulbrandsen Myhre from Aasiden, Ole Svendsen Berflot.2)Ellen Kierstine bpt. 27/10 1782 Landfaldhaugen. Godparents: Tosten Michelsen Bradstads wife, Ingebor, Gunnild Guldbrandsdt from Aassiden, Jacob Jørgensen Myhr-hagen, Anders Bentsen Frogner.3) Niels bpt. 28/8 1785 Landfaldhaugen. Godparents Widow Sidsel Ersrud, Gunnild Guldbrandsdt. MyrerHagan Aassiden, Ambros Larsen Landfald and Anders Hansen Ersrud. Myrehagan: Gulbr. Olsen married to widow Aase Arnesdt.(is she the mother of Else?) Children Nils and Gunnhild (the godparents).I could not find Ellen (boy) who was 12 in 1801. Nearly no ink in the book. Impossible to read.Sørum: Haakon Nilsen Buttedal married to widow Guri Tostensdt. b.ab.1735 Norderhov - 1814. She had first been married to Peder Pedersen Sørum 1722-1755.Egge: It is a connection between Egge and Ask.Berflot: nothing special.Landfald: nothing special.Bradstad: Connection to Aadal in Norderhov?.Bradstad Nedre bd.II, page 399: Tosten Gulbrandsen ab.1745-1818, (died 15/19 burried 23/10 1818 Tosten Guldbrandsen Brastad 73 years.) His son Nils Tostensen ab.1785-1861 married to Brynild Paulsdt. Brastad ab.1785-1870, children Torsten, Paul, Erik, Elisabeth, Anne Kirstine, Peder, Andreas. Nils had 1 child befor he married, Nils, mother Ingeborg Christensdt. Brastad.The other son Ellen Tostensen ab.1789-1864, married to Marte Kristoffersdt. Ila ab.1790-1874.Tosten Gulbrandsen is not born in Lier 1743-48. Since no Tosten G 1745 can be found in Familysearch I wonder if he was born in Drammen/Strømsø. The reason why I say this is, it is very few people born in towns in Familysearch.Tosten G. was born ab.1745/46, but where?In Lier I found a Herbrand Gulbrandsen and Jakob Herbrandsen. It was something about a sale of a horse (maybe under Ask). These 2 came from Numedal.I am sorry but I don't think this was of any help to find where Tosten came from. I have one question: Brastad? He used godparents from Brastad and he moved to Brastad??

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

He is not born 1744-46 Bragernes and Strømsø.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Chris, I believe the key to your Tosten might be found at the place Myrehagan II under the Myre farm in Lier.The following is copied from the Lier Bygdebok web-site http://www.lier.kommune.no/liers-historie/myre.htm'Myrehagan II. 1) Borger Erlandsen, d. 1750, var husmann her fra seinest 1725. Barn: Ola, Nils, Erland, Maren, Rønnaug. Etter ham overtok sønnen 2) Nils Borgersen, d. 1754, g. m. Åse Arnesdtr. Barn; Else, Borger. Ved skiftet etter Nils var bruttoformuen 244 dlr. og nettoformuen 166 dlr. Han eide husene på plassen. Enka giftet seg med 3) Gulbrand Olsen. Barn: Nils, Gunhild. Ved skiftet etter ham var bruttoformuen 149 dlr. og nettoformuen 87 dlr. Husene ble taksert for 80 dlr. Enka giftet seg for tredje gang med 4) Jakob Jørgensen, f. 1743, d. 1819; han var visstnok den siste husmann her. Ved skiftet etter enka Marie Nilsdtr. 1831 var boets aktiva verd 19 spd., og gjelda var på 21 spd.'I believe Gulbrand Olsen is the father since both the children mentioned above are witnesses when Tostens children, are christened, see Berit Knudsens message above, as well as many of the other names mentioned in the Bygdebok. There are no specific years mentioned in the write-up, but it seems to be in the right period.Therefore it seems reasonable to pursue the theory that the Tosten you have found born in Bragernes in 1742 is the right one. Bragernes was part of Lier in 1742 and Myrehagan was at Aassiden which is closer to today's Bragernes/Drammen than Lier.Rgds Tore

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

Hei Tore. The parents of Else Nilsdatter who was married to Tosten G, was Nils Borgersen og Åse Arnesdatter Myrerhagan.Gulbrand Olsen was married to the widow Åse Arnesdt. Myrerhagan after 1754, so Nils and Gunhild was 1/2 brother and sister of Else.About the age of Tosten. He was 56 in 1801 and 73 when he died in 1818 = 1745.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Hi, When I am searching in IGI, I find Tosten Gulbrandsen christened 17 Jun, 1742 in Bragernes, father Gulbrand Olsen!Could Tosten be Gulbrand's son from a previous marriage? That could explain his possibility of marrying Elise Nilsd.Since no Tosten is to be found with birthdate 1745 and knowing the inaccuracies in age records I still tend to believe that 1742 is close enough.Rgds Tore

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

Norderhoug, I can not fine anything 1744-47. But the film was bad so I could not read all of it.I do not belive it was possible for them to get married if her mother and his father was married. If it should be like you say, I belive Tosten and Else needed a persmission and this was not mentioned when they was married.

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Dear Berit and Tore,Thank you for your help in tracing my ancestor.The information you have provided is excellent.I have tried to solve this problem of whether the Tosten Gulbrandsen from 1742 Bragernes is my ancestor, with not much success.I looked on the IGI to see if either Nils or Gunnild Gulbrandsen, the children of Gulbrand Olsen from Myre, were born in Bragernes, but could not find them.Would the farm book mention Tosten as a son of Gulbrand Olsen as well as Nils and Gunild if, in fact, both Gulbrand Olsens are the same person?I found that Gulbrand Olsen married the widow Aase Arnesdtr on 28th June 1756 in Lier. If he was the father of Tosten Gulbrandsen from another marriage Tosten would have been about 14 years old by then. Else Nilsdtr would have been his step-sister, related only by marriage. Would he have needed special permission to marry his step-sister?I have a digital copy of the marriage of Tosten Gulbrandsen to Else Nilsdtr from 1780 in Lier. It says Tosten was living at Landfald-haugen and Else I think was living at the parish farm in Frogner. I can email this digital copy to you if it helps.I ran the batch number on the Tosten Gulbrandsen from 1742 Bragernes and found only one other match. A Johannes Gulbrandsen born in 1736 in Bragernes. The mother was listed as Aase Torisdtr.I noted also that Aasiden and Bragernes are only 3km apart.Would it help if we knew the godparents of Tosten Gulbrandsen born 1742 Bragernes? Maybe some names would appear that we recognise from other places like Myre. Are you able to access the baptism record of this Tosten Gulbrandsen from 1742 Bragernes?I appreciate all your help in this search especially with your local knowledge of Norwegian history.I am still left wondering now if I should consider that the Tosten Gulbrandsen from 1742 Bragernes is my ancestor or just be content with accepting that 1745 is as far back as I can trace my family.Any thoughts/opinions would be appreciated.Chris Nilsen.P.S. The Nils Nilsen that you found as the illegitimate son of Nils Torstensen and Ingeborg Christendtr is my ancestor.He was born in 1811 in Lier and baptised at Tranby. He was married in 1847 and appears in the 1865 census with wife Anne Christopherdtr and also my great-great-grandfather, Andreas Nilsen.

[Gjest Berit Knudsen]

You should not accept Tosten in Bragernes. If you must give up you have your Tosten b.ab.1745 living in Lier and nothing more - no parents and place. Then you are not doing anything wrong.I belive it is possible to find Tosten, but where. It does not look like any of his family was godparents when he baptised his children. And I belive he was born in Buskerud (Numedal/Hallingdal?) or maybe in Jevnaker/Lunner in Oppland because of his name. But I may be all wrong about this. But one has to start somewhere.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Chris,First I would agree with Berit that you should not accept any candidate without cross checking with independent sources - which may prove very difficult for this time period when the church books were not standardised.Berit's opposition, :-) challenged me to dig a little deeper and now I tend to agree that the Tosten Gulbrandsen b. 1741 in Bragernes is not the right one, but the one b. 1748 might be a better candidate. It was Berit’s question around Brastad that gave me the idea, (source is Familysearch - IGI and Ancestral Files for what it’s worth + ”Liers Histore” on the web):Parents of Tosten Gulbrandsen b 28 jan 1748 in Norderhov, (todays Ringerike) are Gulbrand Weeme (todays Veme) and Eli Olsdr. For some reason the patronym Tostensen is omitted, but must be(?) identical to:Gulbrand Tostensen Weme, born in 1707 as a son of Tosten Narvesen Weme and Guri Pedersen. Another son is Mikkel Tostensen christened 14 Feb 1705.From Liers Historie – Nedre Brastad B nr 1 we find that Mikkel Tostensen Rostøe, (today Røste), from Ådal b. ca 1705 took over the farm in 1751. He was married to Kirsti Gudmundsd and had a son Tosten Mikkelsen. Tosten Mikkelsen took over Nedre Brastad B nr 1 and later Øvre Mørk from his father in law.When Tosten Gulbrandsen christens his child Ellen Kierstine, ”Tosten Michelsens wife Ingeborg” is one of the godparents.I.e. is that because Tosten Gulbrandsen and Tosten Mikkelsen are first cousins? Tosten Gulbrandsen first later come to Nedre Brastad B nr 2.A missing link in this theory is whether Mikkel Tostensen Rostøe is identical with Mikkel Tostensen Weme, but the year 1705 is a good indication. A counter-indication is that I have not been able to find the marriage between Mikkel Tostensen and Kirsti Gudmundsdr, (according to Liers Historie), in IGI. Also the conclusive evidence that the Tosten Gulbrandsen b. 1748 is your candidate is still missing, so there is more research to do if one wants.Personally I will leave it here, I first got interested beacuse I have a lot of ancestors in Lier myself and a good school-friend of mine grew up at one of the Myre farms on Aassiden.Good luck.Rgds Tore

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Dear Berit and Tore,Please permit me once again to check my research with you.I have tried to do some further research with the information you have provided.I looked for other Mikkel Tostensen’s in the IGI and found only one other: Michel Torstensen baptised in 1703 in Slagen, Vestfold. (Father was Tosten Boe).It might be safe to assume then that Mikkel Tostensen Rostøe and Mikkel Tostensen Weme are the same person, as there appears to be no others that match.I also couldn’t find the marriage of Mikkel Tostensen to Kirsti Gudmundsdtr but I did find the baptism of Tosten Mikkelsen in 1741 in Norderhov. The parents were Michel Tostensen and Anne Halsteens. According to the IGI Michel Tostensen married Anne Halstensdtr on 31st March 1740 in Norderhov.It would appear that although the Liers Historie states that Mikkel Tostensen Rostøe was married to Kirtsi Gudmundsdtr and had a son Tosten Mikkelsen, that Kirsti Gudmundsdtr was not the mother. She may have been a second wife.Tosten Michelsen (the son) married Ingebor Olsdtr Borge in 1771 in Skoger, Vestfold. This is the Ingebor who was a godparent at Ellen Tostensdtr baptism in 1782. (See above).My other avenue of research was to look in the 1801 census for all the Tosten Gulbrandsens. Knowing the 56-year-old living in Frogner is definitely my ancestor I looked for others and tried to match them with Tosten Gulbrandsens in the IGI.I found a 59-year-old Torsten Gulbrandsen living in Førde, Bremanger, Kind, Nordre Bergenhuus, Søgn og Fjordane. This may be the Torsten born in 1742 in Bragernes, but I think these 2 places are some distance away.There was also a Taarsten Gulbrandsen living in Vestre Slidre, Oppland aged 51. He also appears in the IGI baptised in 1750 in the same place.I am wondering if this gives further weight to the possibility that the Tosten Gulbrandsen form 1748 in Norderhov is the same as the Tosten I am looking for from 1745? Even though he gains 3 years on his age, everything else seems to point to him being my ancestor. Is it possible that he was born in 1745 but not baptised until 1748?I think a search of the church book from the baptism of Tosten Gulbrandsen in 1748 in Norderhov might help. To know who the godparents were might provide more links.Are you able to look up the church book for Norderhov for me?Hope you can help.Chris.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Chris,I am answering under this heading because I don’t want an item with my name in the title to come up on top again. Please don’t use my name in the title field again!It appears to me that the connection has been found. I believe Gulbrand Torstensen Weeme/Fonkalsrud/Kittelsby is one and the same person, i. e. son of Torsten Narvesen, grandson of Narve Halvorsen. (I assume you have realised that the farm name suffix changed according to the place where the subject was living when the record was made.) He is the father of Torsten Gulbrandsen b 28 Jan 1748.The message above confirms my theory from item 19691- message 17 that it was Gulbrand Tostensens brother Mikkel that was living on Brastad thus making his son Tosten Mikkelsen and Tosten Gulbrandsen first cousins and explaining why Tosten Mikkelsens wife Ingeborg was one of the godparents.I was looking at the Norderhov Church Book during the Easter break for my own ancestors and I took a look at your Tosten Gulbrandsen: Chr. 28 Jan 1748 Gulbrand Weeme and Eli Olsd’s child Tosten. The Church Book is very difficult to read, but the witnesses looks like: Helge Ols. Weeme, Kristopher Hin...., Sidsel Olsd., Anna..., Ingeri Olsd.Why the birth year 1745 for Tosten Gulbrandsen appears in the Lier bygdebok and other places I would not put too much emphasis on. I have seen larger errors in Bygde-”books”. It may be one of these errors made by someone and then just repeated without checking by others.Regards Tore

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Dear Tore,Please forgive me for putting your name in the title field of an item. I wasn't sure how else to contact you.I am sorry for doing this. I will never do it again.Thank you also for the information. I appreciate all your help with my research.Yours Truly,Chris Nilsen.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Chris,Apology accepted!If you look at Berit Knudsens answer under item 21189 you will see that the probate record confirms that Gulbrand Tostensen (this time Sandaker) married to Eli/Olia Olsd with a son Tosten (14 yrs in 1763 which places his birth in 1748/49) has a relation to Weeme. The most likely explanation is the one according to item 21189 that he is a younger son of Tosten Narvesen.Sandaker is a farm or actually 2 farms Gnr 37 and 38, Sandaker East and West, in Lier. He is not mentioned in the Lier bygdebok under any of these farms, but he wouldn't be if he was a hired hand living on the farm with his family.Rgds Tore

[Gjest Chris Nilsen]

Hi Tore,I noticed that farms named ‘Sandager’ appear in both Norderhov and Lier in the 1801 census. How do I prove that the 1763 probate record is from Lier?The 2 farms were: Norderhov/Lunder/Sandager, Lier/Frogner/Sandager Hovedgaard.Whose death was it? The date was 19/3/1763. Is it when Gulbrand Tostensen died? He would have been 55 years.Chris.

[Gjest Tore Næss]

Chris,I don't know anymore about the probate than you do. It was Berit who came up with that information.However, since she starts the paragraph with Weeme farm, it looks like it was the owner of Weeme farm that had died, (Tosten Narvesens widow(?), apparently he died in 1745) and that Gulbrand Tostensens was one of the beneficiaries since he is mentioned with Sandager as place of living. This Sandager could be anyone of the 2, but my bet would Norderhov since it was his son, your Tosten Gulbrandsen, that first appeared in Lier.RgdsTore