[#58270] Bratt and Rudi

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(Arentz/23:) The statement that Cecilie Sigurdsdotter [born 1338, married 1355 to Ingjald Guthormssønn Oe] was the great grand mother (mothers fathers mother) of Cecilie Pedersdatter Skiaker (1432-1509) implicates (if I've understood the line correctly) that the latter Cecilie's mother Gudrid/Gyrid [Gyrdsdatter] was the daughter of Gyrd Ingjaldsønn Oe at Botner. Has this been verfied ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Tore H. Vigerust writes (in 'Genealogen' no. 1/99, p. 45) that Cecilie Pedersdatter's mother (Gudrid ?) is more likely to be a daughter of Oesten Godensson, who lived at By i Veldre (son of Goden Leiksson).

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Thank you Per, for this information!Since I only have Genealogen from 2000 onwards - (became a member in the fall, 1999) - and before I continue our discussion, I would appreciate, whenever possible, a scanned copy of Tores article (I am positive you have my E-mail address).Otherwise, since I live permanently here in southern France, it may be difficult for me to obtain an official copy from Norwegian libraries and/or NSF, not least to say a loan of the entire publication).The same would probably go for our relatives/friends in the U.S, and my intention is to furnish them - whenever I can - with the latest research on the Bratt family in Gudbrandsdalen.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(Brown/4 - Arentz/7:) According to FamilySearch, Laurits Pedersen Bratt and his wife Ingrid Olsdatter Grue were allegedly the parents of Hans Lauritzen [bratt ?] ('Hans Larssøn' i 1666).I have previously not seen a son 'Hans' here, and 1585 seems a little early compared to the births of their (other) (possible) children Mari, Karen, Laurits, Gudrun (?), Boel (Brynhild ?) and Jøran (?), who seem to have been born from appr. 1595 an onwards.If he belongs here, Hans seems to have been the eldest son. Lauritz and Ingrid had no known 'Hans' among their immediate ancestors.So, how sure can we be that Hans was in fact a son of Lauritz Pe(de)rsson Bratt, and thus a second cousin of this alleged wife (who seems to have inherited Rudi) ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(Aretnz/7:) Is would seem that Thora Østensdatter Bratt (married to Erik Trondssøn Tynnøl/Bjølstad) was probably not 'the sister of her husbands stepmother' but rather a sister of his (half)brother Trond's wife Aase Eysteinsdatter Bratt !

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Even better: ''(Arentz/7:) It would seem ....'' !

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Yes, Per, you are right, this is a consequence of the change made in (24) and (25). Hence, the two sisters may indeed have been married to two half brothers ('exchange of sieblings' = søskenbytte), quite normal over the years!

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Fortunatey, I've been able to buy Genealogen 1/99 from NSF.There, in Tore H. Vigerusts article Adelsnytt, reference is made to DN III no. 797 (2.4. 1448) where Gyrd Ingjaldsønn Oe at Botner's son Jon Gjordsson filed a court case against Oesten Godensson for a farm Lier at Veldre, Ringsaker, Hedmark that their fathers earlier had traded between themselves.It is believed that Oesten probably won the case and kept the farm, and Mr. Vigerust hypothesizes that:- he got a daughter in Skjåk who later became the mother of Cecicile Petersdotter Skiaker,or- that Lier was inhereted by the Bratts at Bjølstad (Guttorm and his wife later traded the farm with the bishop at Hamar: DN II no. 1010, Våge 19. jan. 1500).Clearly, however, Luckily, I've been able to buy Genealogen 1/99 from NSF.There, in Tore H. Vigerusts article Adelsnytt, reference is made to DN III no. 797 (2.4. 1448) where Gyrd Ingjaldsønn Oe at Botner's son Jon Gjordsson filed a court case against Oesten Godensson for a farm Lier at Veldre, Ringsaker, Hedmark that their fathers earlier had traded between themselves.It is believed that Oesten probably won the case and kept the farm, and Mr. Vigerust hypothesizes that:- he got a daughter in Skjåk who later became the mother of Cecilie Petersdotter Skiaker,or- that Lier was inhereted from him by the Bratts at Bjølstad in a more complicated manner (Guttorm Endridssön Bratt and his wife Cecilia Petersdatter later traded the farm with the bishop at Hamar: DN II no. 1010, Våge 19. jan. 1500).Further to Cecilia Petersdatters inheritance, she was probably the daughter of Peter Gudleiksson at Skidaker (N. Stene: Erkebiskop Eschilds slekt NST V, p. 210).Apart from his two possible wife candidates above (NN Gyrdsdatter Oe and NN Oestensdatter), I have also seen another candidate in the literature, Gudrid Eriksdatter (don't know where).

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Har det blitt borte noe i innlegg over, Christian, eller er det bare det at store deler av teksten står to ganger ?

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Thanks, Per, you are right.Please disregard the whole of innlegg 33 above, which should instead read as follows:Fortunatey, I've been able to buy Genealogen 1/99 from NSF.There, in Tore H. Vigerusts article Adelsnytt, Genealogen 1(99 p. 45, reference is made to DN III no. 797 (2.4. 1448) where Gyrd Ingjaldsønn Oe at Botner's son Jon Gjordsson filed a court case against Oesten Godensson for a farm Lier at Veldre, Ringsaker, Hedmark that their fathers earlier had traded between themselves.It is believed that Oesten probably won the case and kept the farm, and Mr. Vigerust hypothesizes that: - he got a daughter in Skjåk who later became the mother of Cecicile Petersdotter Skiaker,or- that Lier was inhereted by the Bratts at Bjølstad from Østen Godensson in a more complicated manner (page 45, last 2-4 lines).Hence, the article does not mention any details of such an hypothetical marriage, nor any names of Oestens anticipated wife or children.I would personally support the last alternative:During the above court case, witnesses declared that Jons grandfather Ingjald Guttormsen O had acquired the farm from (his father-in-law) 'herra Siugurdh i Gighzskoo, fader hustru Sidcilia som Ingjeld i Oo átte' (N. Stene: Erkibiskop Eskilds slekt, NST V, p. 210). Hence, the farm was possessed by Norsk Riksråd Sigurd Haftorsson (Sørum) (ca. 1310-1391/93 Borregaard) who passed it on to his daughter Cecilie Sigurdsdotter and her husband Ingjald n. 1361(Innlegg 23 above).Then, in turn, Ingjald and Cecilies son Gyrd/Gjord Ingjaldsson O (1370 Vang-abt. 1448) sold the farm to Goden Leiksson, whos son Østen (probably farmer there) 2. April 1448 was fighting for his right to the Lider farm in a court case that was filed by Jon Gyrdsson (DN III nr. 797).Clearly, in my view, the farm must have been Jon Gyrdsons odel, since he was the one who filed the case, and, again in my view, it is less likely that he should have lost it to Østen Godensen.Cecilie Petersdatter Skiaker and her husband Guttorm later transferred the same farm Lider at By in Veldre to the bishop at Hamar: DN II no. 1010, Våge 19. jan. 1500) (NST V, p. 210). She was probably the daughter of Peter Gudleiksson at Skidaker. She was probably named after hustru Cecilia i O, Vang (N. Stene: Erkebiskop Eschilds slekt NST V, p. 210).Since this last issue goes beyond the theme Rudi, I suggest the two of us continue it by E-mail.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

(35): Did I misinterpret something? Lenke (DN III, nr. 797, 2. april 1448).Is it really unlikely that Jon Gyrdson O (1390-1449) did win his case to Østen Godensen? If it is not clearly spelled out in this diploma, and no-one else can give a clear transcription of the 'middelnorsk' contents in the latter part of it, I consider my anticipation that he won the case for correct.

[Gjest Christian Arentz]

Ref. innlegg 36. Maybe someone has anything more to add?

[Gjest Tore H Vigerust]

Javisst. Mitt lille arbeide i Genealogen 1999 må forbedres og publiseres på en vitenskapelig måte. Jeg skal også - i den nye artikkelen - ta hensyn til de innvendinger som er kommet - og drøfte dem.