[#70719] Cecilie Cathrine Widing - 1.(?-1759) m. Garmann 2. (1713-1780) m. Heiberg

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

The article I referred to was printed in Genealogen no 2/2005. The article deals with the probate of the estate of Johan Garmann and Karen Friman, a probate originated 25th July 1770 and concluded 23rd July 1771.The article contains photos of paintings of Johan Garmann (1675-1730), Karen Friman (1683-1770), Kristoffer Garmann (1720-1779), Karen Garmann (1756-1820), Maren Elisabeth Schanche (1753-1817, see Andre Martinsen in #12), Johan Garmann (1780-1815), Carsten Wenzel Garmann (1845-1909), Johan (Jan) Garmann (1755-1799), Wenche Garmann (1793-1849) and Johanne Garmann (1799-1884).

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(26:) Er nevnte Karen Garmann (1756-1820) den som ble gift (hjemme) i Sandviken, Bergen den 26 Aug 1773 med sogneprest i Hosanger og Avaldsnes, Carsten Henrik Schancke (1744-1789) ? Jeg har henne som født på Utstein kloster, og med en avvikende dødsdato, nemlig 1 Aug 1808 på Marienlyst, Karmøy, og er selvsagt interessert i å få rettet dette om det er feil.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(27:) Den Karen (Marie) Garmann (1756-1808?) som jeg nevner i #27 skal visstnok være datter av sorenskriver i Hordaland, Johan Garmann (1717-1768) og hans kone Wenche (Johan) Henriksdatter von der Lippe (ca.1722(?)-1800), som også hadde barna Johan (født på Osterøy 1744), Henrik, Christopher (født i Haus 1747 og g.m. Maren Elisabeth Schanche, ref. innlegg #26), Henninge Margrethe og Anna Rebekka.Johan Garmann eide Mielde gods (i Sandviken, Bergen) og Alvøen gods og kruttverk.

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

Nei, den Karen Garmann som er avbildet i Genealogen, er kusine av den Karen Garmann du spør om. Både Kristoffer og Johan Garmann hadde naturlig nok døtre som var oppkalt etter Karen Friman.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Mange takk.Karen Garmann (1756 Utstein, Rennesøy - 1820 Bergen) (avbildet i Genealogen), g. i Manger prestgeård 17 Mai 1779 m. cancelliråd, byfogd og byskriver på Bragernes, Arnoldus de Fine (1746-1783), var altså d. av justitsråd og fogd i Ryfylke, Christopher Garmann (1720-1779), eier av Utstein kloster på Rennesøy, og hans 2. kone Cecilie Cathrine Widing (ca.1730? - før Feb 1779), mens hennes kusineKaren Marie Garmann (1756 Utstein ? - 1808 Karmøy) (se #27) var d. av fogdens bror Johan Garmann (1717-1768), sorenskriver i Hordaland, og hans kone Wenche Henriksdatter von der Lippe (1726 Trondheim - 1800 Bergen), som forøvrig visstnok var kusine av brorens (fogden Christopher Garmann's) 1. kone Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe (1722 Bergen - 1751 Utstein).Jeg er noe usikker på om det kan være korrekt at Karen Marie (Johansdatter) Garmann, i likhet med sin kusine, også var født på Utstein, tilligemed samme år. Kan dette være riktig ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Tybring, I'm sorry about my rudeness of changing into Norwegian language. The question, as you will have gathered, was which Karen Garmann (1756-1820) was depicted in Genealogen, and the answer, given by Lars, is that she was the daughter of Christopher Garmann (1720-1779).

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(25/12:) The origin of the name 'Heiberg' among the children of Christopher Johansen Garmann (1747-1800) and his wife Maren Elisabeth Schancke (#12) may indirectly have been Maren Gjertsdatter Heiberg (1686-1745), who was the 2nd wife of Jean von der Lippe (c1685-1774) and thus the stephmother of Wenche Jansdatter von der Lippe (1722-1751), who's brother-in-law Johan Garmann (1717-1768) was the father of Christopher Garmann (1747-1800) and the grandfather of Christen HEIBERG Garman, who was born appr. 1795 and in 1801 lived with his widowed mother Maren Elisabeth Schancke at Alstahaug prestegård, Nordland.It would hardly come as a big surprise if a 'Heiberg' relative ('Christen' ?) of mentioned Maren should emerge as a 'fadder' at the babtization of Christen in appr. 1795.Maren, by the way, had a grand-nephew called Christen (Gjertsen) Heiberg (1754-1816) from Sogndal, who was the grandchild of her brother Christen Gjertsen Heiberg.Christopher Garmann (died in 1800) was a vicar in Alta (Finnmark), Ytterøy (Nord-Trøndelag) and Alstahaug (Nordland). His son Christen was probably born in Ytterøy or Alstahaug.Anybody who would bother look up the church books for the babtization, to see who were present as 'fadders' ?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(21/30:) Cecilie Cathrine Widing (born appr. 1734), the 2nd wife of Christopher Garmann, died in 1759 at Utstein. She made her husband promise never to re-marry. 20 years later her husband married again, on 9 Feb 1779 in Stavanger Domkirke. During the wedding cermony, Cecilie allegedly appeared in white draperies, causing Christopher to die nine days later from the shock. After this moment, Cecilie ('The White Lady') has haunted the monastry at Utstein ....

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Thank you for all of the fine information - sorry I have been unavailable to reply. I have written to correct the title as suggested. I can read most of the Norwegian, it is only difficult for me to write Norwegian.Here is a link to the burial of Cecilie Garmann f. Widing on Feb 14, 1759 aged 24 years 5 months and 3 days if I read the entry properly.LenkeIt appears her son Laurits (named for her father?) was born a few days before her death.I am very keen to obtain a copy of the portraits of Johan Garmann (b.1675) and his wife Karen Friman. Thank youfor the information Lars. Do you or anybody else have copies that can be sent/posted or can anyone explain how to obtain a copy of of the Genealogen article.

[Gjest Per Nermo]

(22:) Tybring, would it be possible for you, again, to render a transcription of the church book entry for the babtization of Wenche von der Lippe (daughter of Jan) in Bergen, Nykirken, 1722 ? I guess this is the one who later became the 1st wife of Christopher Garmann (1721-1779) ?(32:) And, as you are obviously and excellent reader of church book handwriting, would it it be possible for you to look up the babtization of Christen Hejberg Garmann in the church book of Alstahaug, Nordland, in 1793 (1795?), son of Christopher Garmann (1747-1800) and Maren Elisabeth Schancke (1753-1817), to check if there was a 'Hejberg' (Christen ?) among the 'fadders' ?(30:) Is it correct that both cousins 'Karen Garmann' were born at Utstein in 1756 ?

[Gjest Eva Willenburg]

Schabel's handwriting was not to bad at this stage:Karen Maria Garman b. 6 May, baptized 25 May 1793. Testes: Jørgen Sverdrup Hersleb af Nord Herrøe, Sr. Erich Hammond Sørvigen, Sr. Hans Jentoph af Aagvigen med hu. Madame Jentoph (Birgitte Marie Carstensdr. Angell, my notes), Jomfru Hersleb af Nord Herrøe, og Jomfru Berg af Aagvigen.Tirsdagen den 1 December 1795 døpt et Drengebarn Christen Heiberg. Fadderne ved daapen: Hr. Schnabel Capellan til Alstahaug, Monsn. Andreas Bech Offersøen, Mons. Jonas Walnum Lovøen, Sr. Søren ?, Madame Holst Offersøen, Jomfru Golla Catharina Drejer Lovøen.There are pictures of Johan Garman and Karen Friman in the book 'Utstein Kloster'. The originals are kept at Bergen Museum.

[Gjest Lars Løberg]

Genealogen can be ordered from Norsk Slektshistorisk Forening, www.genealogi.no.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Eva, would you be able to scan and post the pictures of Johan and Karen on this debate, alternatively I will try to order the article as you have indicated Lars. Thanks to all for this.The entry for the Baptism of Wenche von der Lippe in 1722 at Nykirken is, to the best of my ability (pleasehelp anyone else), as follows:'Jan von der Lippe Madam/Moder(?) Cecilia Catharina de Besche _____ dattr... til(?) Daabs... Kald(?)... Wenche von der Lippe ____ ____ ____ Hans Schreuder, Danckert Danckertsen, Henrich von der Lippe, Mad. Wenche ____ Joachim von der Lippe, Jomfru Anne Margrethe Randulf, Madem. Catherine Elisabeth von der Lippe'As you can see there are a fair number of gaps as I am not so good at guessing Norwegian words and expressions. I apologize for any foolish mistakes I may have made in the transcription.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

I have located a few other portraits of the Frimann family and wonder if they appear in Lars' article, the book about Utstein, or if anyone has any other knowledge or information about them. The first is a portrait a copy of which is in the collection of the Folkemuseum. It is supposed to be of an unknown boy of the Frimann family circa 1650. Here is the link[url="http://www.primusweb.no/artifactView.do?image=&imageIndex=0&idOwner=NF&idIdentifier=NF.00609-358&pageNo=1&noOnPage=12&noInResult=44&owner=&criteria=frimann&searchObjectType=Unknown&onlyWithPictures=&lastPageNo=&filterCriterias=>Lenke The other copy of a portrait I located on the Nasjonalbiblioteke website purports to show Marie Frimann fodt Fuiren, the wife of Johan Clausen Frimann, who, if I recall correctly was the first owner of Utstein in this family line. Her is the link: LenkeI cannot figure out if there is any indication of the present location of these portraits. Does anyone know?By the way, Eva, when you say the other Frimann portraits are in the Bergen Museum, is that the Bymuseum or the Kunstmuseum?This is the supposed parentage of this Marie Frimann, although it seems odd that she would have died in Copenhagen, not in Norway.Lenke marie frimann fuiren&cd=33&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a Finally, just to fiinish up this post about old portraits, here is a link to a copy of one supposed to show Joachim von der Lippe Does anyone know where it now is?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

There appear to be at least two, possibly three, 'Maria Fuiren' of the approximately similar age :a) Marie Jørgensdatter Fuiren (1624-1693) from Copenhagen, married to Hans Hansen Svaning (1606-1668), arch bishop of Sjælland, with whom she had children that were born in the period 1641-1656,b) Marie Fuiren (born appr. 1640 ?), married to Strange Trøner who lived in Copenhagen, with whom she had children that were born in 1665, and, third,c) Marie Fuiren (born appr. 1640 ?), married to Johan Clausen Frimann who was 'Amtsforvalter at Halsnøy Kloster' and had children that was born in Kvinnherad in 1681 and 1683 in his 2nd marriage with Elisabeth Henningsdatter Smith.(These three might perhaps be 'reduced' to only two different persons).Jacob von Fuiren (born appr. 1630 ?) was probably a brother of one of the above. He lived i Copenhagen in 1664 and died there in 1676.Anybode who can help 'sorting out' these three (?) Maria Fuiren ?

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

I have noticed, as well, that the name Fuiren is also often spelled Furien and Fyrien, for what that is worth.It is my understanding that Johan Clausen Frimann through his marriage to Marie Fuiren had several children, including Wilhelm Johansen Frimann (1668-1749) who married Maren Arentz (1665-1728) (there are portraits as well of Wihelm and many of his siblings from this marriage on the Nasjonalbibliotek website).He then had at least one child with Elisabeth Henningsdatter Smith, named Karen Frimann (1683-1770), who married Johan Garmann (1675-1730)

[Gjest Per Nermo]

I assume that Karen was the sister of amtmann Henning Johanssøn Frimann (1681-1743), who died in Halden and was married in 1719 to Anna Hansdatter, the widow of Hr Johan Madsen Heiberg, vicar in Lindås.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Yes, It must certainly be that Henning Frimann is the son of Johan Claussen and his second wife Elisabeth Henningsdatter Smith. I am not quite certain, though which (if any) children are from Marie Fuiren. I had thought Claus Frimann(1666-1715), the eldest was[url="http://www.nb.no/utlevering/nb/f107d1b11d5357ca1d8ae6c1732d5a13>Lenkeand also Wilhelm Frimann(1668-1749)LenkeBut perhaps Henrik Frimann(1678-1738)Lenkeand Henning Frimann(1681-1743)

[Gjest Per Nermo]

I'd guess that Claus Frimann (1667-1715) as well would be a son of Johan Clausen Frimann in Johan's 1st marriage with Maria Fuiren. Claus was a vicar in Selje ('Sællø') in Sogn og Fjordane and was married in 1696 to Anna Pedersdatter Harboe.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

I have been unable to locate any information on the Kvinnherad church book. Although it should cover the birth dates of most of the children of Johan Clausen Frimann (other than some of the earliest, the condition is poor, the writing poor and so it is hard to see. It may be that they were not recorded in the usual book, but that seems odd. Here is a link to a suggestion about which children stem from which mother, but without sources.Lenke

[Gjest Are S. Gustavsen]

Dear Tybring Hemphill:The issue in question, Genealogen 2/2005, may be ordered by sending an e-mail to: kontor@genealogi.no The periodical will then be sent to your adress as soon as possible.However, we do not advice third-party participants, in discussions like this, to scan parts of, or the entire, periodical. This due to the fact that the author and publisher of Genealogen, still wishes to protect the copyright in effect.Best regards,Are S. GustavsenEditor-in-chief/Genealogen

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

I apologize if my request to another party to the webdebatt has caused concern to the periodical or the author, Lars, who has been kind enough to respond to my enquiry in the first place. In Canada, where I live, there is an express exception to copyright to allow partial copying for personal, non-commercial use. That is obviously not the case in Norway and I, of course will confine myself in future on the webdebatt to requests that are considered appropriate in the forum where the webdebatt originates.

[Gjest Tybring Hemphill]

Concerning #40 above, I have found a suggestion on Ancestry that the parents of Marie Fuiren were Wilhelm/Willum Fuiren (1603-1664)and Drude Motzfeldt (?-1649). These parents would make sense as parents of Marie given the names of Marie and Johan Clausen Frimann's children as set forth in the link in #39. That is the first girl is named Drude after the maternal grandmother, first son named Claus after paternal grandfather, second son named Wilhelm/Willum after maternal grandfather, etc.Wilhelm Fuiren is supposed to be the son of Henrik Fuiren (1544-1631) (although there were supposed to be two of this name, father and son and I do not know if the dates are for father or son). Wilhelm's mother is likely Mechtild Hermannsdatter.The parents of Drude Motzfeld(t) are Peder Motzfeld(t) and Marie Heimbach. There is another source, however, that lists the wife of Wilhelm Fuiren as Drude C(h)arisius, daughter of Jonas (1571-1619) and Anne C(h)arisius. As this person is also named Drude, it could be possible that she is a mother of Marie Fuiren, but I prefer the Motzfeld(t) idea as the grandmother Marie Heimbach is then a source for Marie Fuiren's christian name.It appears that all of these families were involved in trade in Copenhagen in a prominent way and especially with the Danish trading company. Any thoughts?

[Gjest Per Nermo]

Marie Fuiren's grandfather being one Henrik Fuiren (1544-1631) suggests that she is indeen the same Marie Fuiren that was (?) previously married to Strange (Christophersen) Trøner who lived in Copenhagen in 1665 and had with Maria the children Christopher and Maria.The 'suggestion' is based on (the fact ?) that Strange's sister Else was married to Jacob Fuiren and had a son Henrik, which then would have his grandfather's first name. The siblings Jacob and Maria thus would have been married to the siblings Else and Strange Trøner.For this to 'fit', Strange must have died in 1665, and Maria's daughter in her supposed 2nd marriage with Johan (Fredrik) Clausen Frimann must have been born appr. 1666, not 1664 as one source suggests. Anyway, these are merely a bunch of guesses and assumptions ....

[Gjest Berit Frank Pagh]

To the second part of 49:According to the Autobiography of Henrik Fuiren (bartskær - parykmager - postmester) in Larvik, his parents were Jacob Fuiren and Else Christophersdr. Trøner.Three of his sons were named for his brothers: Albret, Hans and Strange. A daughter was named for his mothers sister: Gertrud.This Autobiography was published in: Personalhistorisk Tidsskrift 1.Række 5 1884, side 129.Berit Pagh.