the Havn farm in the census of 1664-66

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

Reviewing the census of 1664-66 for the Skjeberg farms, I do not find the ages of the people surveyed there, as in other places like Tune.  I look for the ages of the residents in the Havn farm of Skjeberg: Hans, his brother Ole and their children Nils and Ole

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

9 timer siden, Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer skrev:

 

Reviewing the census of 1664-66 for the Skjeberg farms, I do not find the ages of the people surveyed there, as in other places like Tune.  I look for the ages of the residents in the Havn farm of Skjeberg: Hans, his brother Ole and their children Nils and Ole

 

 

The image is the "manntal" for 1664 : https://media.digitalarkivet.no/ft10041005070039

In the "manntal" for 1666: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/ft10041005070075 ages are specified.

 

Ola and Hans might be brothers, but these sources do not indicate on that relation.

 

There is also a third "manntal" from the time, by the "fogd"; but I am not familiar with geography of the area....

It should be in this list of content: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/ft/contents/35560

 

Endret Februar 7, 2018 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

OK, thank you ... do you know why there were properties that were counted twice and that they have different information ?? ... for the case of the Torebye farm in Varteig, the user and his son have differences of 10 years in one and the other census

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

well...  I am not sure that we know all the reasons why three censuses were made in three years, with somewhat different things to register.

Transcripts of the Royal decrees are shown in the beginning of the protocol: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/ft10041005070010

 

These censuses are known to be inaccurate, both with regards to age and with regards to inclusion of others than the main holders

of the farms (i.e. sons, servants, elderly, etc.).

The latter aspect may be explained as a result of a notion that this was mainly for taxation, and then sons and servants were less

relevant. However, as a registry of potential candidates for military service, they were relevant.

The age can be understood/explained by 1) people did not always knew how old they were, and (more likely) 2) adult men added to

their age, to avoid military service, and young men under-reported their years - in the hope of postponing military service to a more

peaceful time.

 

The bailiff (fut/foged) and the vicar (sokneprest), who did the recordings, are not available for comments....

 

 

Endret Februar 7, 2018 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

Yes, about the inaccuracy of the censuses I have experience ... already reviewing the 1801 census in Rygge, my fifth grandfather and his family appears, mentioned with 5 more years than he had in reality, which made it difficult for me to find his christening record

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

the Havn Farm appears with the number 31 ?? ... you could help me with the translations ... I do not understand much with that calligraph

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

This is in the vicar's census.

 

column titles/content of each column; about like this

"Gaarden/ Hauffn - j schp 3 Fr: Korn

Opsidere / Olle bruger halfpartn: - 54 A:  Hans - halfpartn - 60 A

Sønner / Ingebret - 15 A, Niels - 22 A, Olle 20 A., Aschued - 12 A

Drenge/ Ingelbret - 12 A"

 

 

"bruger halfpartn:": uses/holds half the property/farm

"j schp 3 Fr: Korn":  1 skjeppe 3 fjerding (=1 3/4 skjeppe; a volumetric unit) grain  is the annual rent of the farm

"opsidder": holder/user of a farm

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

what difference there is between Opsiddere, Besiddere and Opsiddere og med eier ?? ... I have seen the users of farms, to be treated in the censuses of those 3 ways...Besiddere is the owner?

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

There are two issues here: to understand the meaning (after all, this is 350 years ago), and to translate this meaning to English (and then to Spanish?)

 

The translation first:  "Bonde" and "(gard)brukar" (Danish: "(gaard)bruger") is the person operating using a registered (matriculated) farm unit. Most importantly... the person that paid tax.

As far as I recall, Einar Haugen (American professor and linguist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einar_Haugen ) recommends to translate Norw. "brukar"  to Eng. "holder" (but my copy of his dictionary is not at hand). This person was either fully or partly owning the farm, or had a life-long rental contract ("bygsel"), which even could be transferred to his offspring or other family members. "Bonde" can be translated to peasant or farmer (the English distinction relates to the economic relations in the society; for a 1660s context, I guess peasant usually would be chosen). 

 

A "husmann"/"plassemann" (holder/user of non-registered/non-matriculated land) would usually not be called "bonde" or "brukar".

 

Basically, in this context, I understand the terms "oppsitjar"  (Danish: "Opsidder"), "Bonde" and "brukar" as synonyms. In modern usage, "oppsitjar" may also mean an owner/resident of a house, whereas "bonde"/"brukar" still relates to a farm unit.

"Besidder" is not (or hardly) in modern usage. In the 1660s context, I understand it as the owner (or may be included, a person executing the rights of owners, e.g. on behalf of an office/institution or a group of heirs).

 

"eige"/"eigar (Da. "eie"/"eier") mean own/owner.

 

When the owner himself is the holder, the term "sjølveigar" can be used (Da. "selveier"; Eng. literally "self owner").

 

Endret Februar 8, 2018 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

Interesting as the system of land tenure in Norway is quite unique ... another case that I take the opportunity to ask is that of my ninth grandmother Anne Guttormsdatter, who appears as Besiddere in the farm Lunde de Varteig, in the case of a woman. First I thought that her husband was deceased, but in another census made on the property, her husband Jon Svensen and son Zacharias Jonsen appear. Why could this have happened?

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

First - here, it seems that "Besiddere" is used in the meaning "holders"

 

Second, the entry clearly reads "Enchen Anne Guttormsdatter". (Widow A. G. )

If her "old" husband (i.e. not a new one after remarriage) actually appeared in a later recording, it can be an example of people "surviving" themselves in the tax lists.

This is seen quite commonly. The bailiff (or rather, his clerk) used the list of last year as model for the new list, and just copied the list of names.

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

Prestemanntalet 1664-66 for Nedre Borgsyssel prost   Side Amt Sokn År Gard type Gard Gardskyld Status Førenamn Etternamn Alder 2490 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund 6 schind till Præstebolet, 3 lispd till Vier?? Graalum?? Sønner Oluff Thronsøn (Stiffsøn Soldat) 21 2491 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund 6 schind till Præstebolet, 3 lispd till Vier?? Graalum?? Sønner Niels Knudsen (Rytter paa gaarden) 28 2492 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Opsiddere En Enche     2493 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Sønner Zacharias Jonsøn (Søldat) 18 2494 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Sønner Tore Jonsøn 10 2495 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Thienistedreng Jon Svensøn 50 2496 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Opsidder Gulich Amundsøn 28 2497 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Lunde 1 pund Sønner Amund Gulichsøn 1 1/2 2498 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Sillie 3 fieringer Opsidder Biørn Halffuorsen 52 2499 248 Nedre Borgesyssel provsti Vartey anneks (til Fredrikstad) 1666 Gaarde Sillie 3 fieringer Sønner Niells Biørnsen 22 Digitalarkivet 2018. Rettar til databasen: Digitalarkivet. Versjon frå 1/15/1998. Talet på oppslag: 0 (0 i dag) WebCens © Jan Oldervoll 1998-2018 -Framsida | -English | -Kontakt | Gammel debatt | -Ny debatt | Ordlista | -Nyttige lenker | Hjelp | -Hjelp til nye sider Sidan 23.1 1998: 115.497.190 sider. I dag: 17620.

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

I can not find the manuscript, but here is the detail for the farm Lunde ... it is also possible that Jon Svensen, has married the widow Anne Guttormsdatter ... his grandson Gunder Zachariasen appears in 1723 as "opsiddere og med eier" en Lunde

[Arkivverket - Kristian Hunskaar]

13 minutter siden, Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer skrev:

 

I can not find the manuscript, but here is the detail for the farm Lunde ... it is also possible that Jon Svensen, has married the widow Anne Guttormsdatter ... his grandson Gunder Zachariasen appears in 1723 as "opsiddere og med eier" en Lunde

 

Jon Svensen is the servant (tjenestedreng). He is not Anne's husband.

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

I understand that, but how do you explain that your descendants appear as users of the Lunde farm until the mid-1800s?

[Arkivverket - Kristian Hunskaar]

1 time siden, Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer skrev:

I understand that, but how do you explain that your descendants appear as users of the Lunde farm until the mid-1800s?

 

As far as I understand, Gunder Sakariassen was son of Sakarias Jonsen, who was son of Anne Guttormsdatter and an unknown Jon. - The servant Jon Svensen has nothing to do with it.

[Gustavo Pedersen Mollenhauer]

 

OK, thanks for the clarification, it was by the name that I thought Jon Svensen was Anne's husband and father of Zacharias Jonsen

 

 

21.

Sælie
15 L# tunge
Gunder Zackrißen
Opsideren
Soel Lie, Let vindt
¼ tr: Bl: Korn, 5 tr: Hafre, 1 set: Hvede og Ærter
8 Læs
2 Hæster, 5 Creatur, 4 Souer
15 L# tunge
22.
Lunde
1 Sk# tunge
Gunder Zackrießen, Trun Torß:
Opsideren og med ejer
En Ringe becke qvern til huus behof
Bag Lie, tung windt
1 tr: Bl: Korn, 7 tr: Hafre, 2 set: Hvede og Ærter, 1 set: Lin og Hamp
10 Læs
3 Hæster, 10 Creatur, 6 Sover
1 Sk# tunge
2