Durek David Verrett – norske aner på morssiden?

[Anne M. Berge]

Det er lenge siden jeg var engasjert i denne saken, og det er bra alle fortsetter grave og stille spørsmål, ettersom vi vet at omgangen med fakta er noe slakk i familien det gjelder.

 

Oppsummert er saken slik per i dag:

1. Det som fins av kildemateriale, ekteskapet mellom Farmer og Tyson, og det kodete fødselsregisteret fra Sheilas fødsel, tyder begge på at registrert, juridisk far i saken er Oscar Farmer. Dersom pater est-tradisjonen også står sterkt i USA så vil mors ektemann automatisk føres opp som far, med mindre det reises farskapssak.

 

2. Familien selv oppgir derimot at det er Edward Brinn Urquhart som er biologisk far til Sheilah. Dureks eldre halvsøster har et ganske stort tre på MH bl a som oppgir dette. Dette er også eneste mulighet for at Dureks opphav skal være norsk slik han selv og andre oppgir, og for at Russel Olsen skal være i slekt med dem.

 

Et endelig svar vil derfor kun være mulig dersom Sheila eller et av hennes barn DNA-tester gjennom FamilyTreeDNA og/eller MH, der de fleste norske som tester har gjort dette og da fins i databasene. (Det fins også et par andre testselskap, men det er i disse to man kan få best relevante norske treff.)

 

Dersom Sheila/Veruschkas farmor faktisk er norskfødte Lilli Karense Gulovna Arnesen (1895-1969), så vil dette gjenspeiles både i "etno-analysen" i testene, og i trefflistene som da vil inkludere nordmenn med opphav i de samme områdene. Om det derimot er Oscar Farmer/Farmier så fins ikke noe skandinavisk i linjene bak og det vil ikke være norske treff, og heller ikke noen merkbar andel "skandinavisk" i etnoanalysen.

 

 

[Kai Ståle Ødegård]

Virker som en standard Geni(dot)com forbindelse.

Vi alle er vel beslektet med gud og hver kjendis, samt kongelige ved alle hoff i Europe, på Geni.

🙂

 

rgds

Kai

[Kai Ståle Ødegård]

On 9/2/2024 at 11:39 PM, Anton Hagelee said:

 

From the newspaper article. 

 

"Hun het Lilly Karense Gulovna Arnesen og reiste etter hvert til USA hvor hun ble mor til Edward Brinn Urquhart.

I 1943 ble Edward far til Sheilah Urquhart, som i dag heter Sheilah G. Farmer og er Durek Verretts mor."

 

A good story if we had any proff that Edward was the father of Sheliah?

 

 

Går da ut ifra at far til Edward Brinn Urquhart (Edward Brinn Sr.) var sort, ikke sant?

Me datidens øyne var det ganske utrolig hvis denne hvite innvandrerkvinnen skulle få barn med en sort mann.

Rasismen og stigma på "blandingsforhold var ikke akkurat usynlig på den tiden.

 

 

rgds

Kai

 

[Rus Olsen]

After seeing 5+ years of communications on this blog – your theories have been entertaining, to the legitimacy of Durek’s claim of Norwegian descent, I feel I can make this less complicated for you. DNA does not lie, as you all know.

I am definitively Durek’s 2nd cousin, once removed, and without any doubt, Durek has Norwegian DNA – here’s how.

My DNA shows I am over 50% Norwegian. Durek’s Great Grandmother (and my Great Aunt) Lillian “Lilli” Karense Gulovna Arnesen, is my Grandfather Christian Marinius Arnesen’s eldest sister, and they were 100% Norwegian. They both grew up in Sagene, Norway before moving to America in 1909.

My Great Aunt Lilli and Edward Brinn Sr had 2 children - Catherine and Edward Jr.

Edward Jr married Vera Tyson. Edward Jr & Vera had one child together, Sheila Brinn, who later changed her name to Veruschka. (The name Urquhart was used by her, and other family members on occasion as Frank Urquhart raised both Edward Jr and Catherine after Edward Brinn Sr died.)

Sheila/Veruschka had 5 children with 3 different spouses.                                                                                 * Demetria & Gina from her first spouse, Abdul Onder.                                                                                           * Angelina & Durek from her second spouse, David Verrett.                                                                            * Brandon from her third, Michael Clarke.                 

I am a positive DNA match with 4 family members of Durek’s immediate family, on two different DNA sites (Ancestry & MyHeritage). I match with Durek’s Mom, Sheila/Veruschka. I match with Durek’s half sister Demetria. I match with Durek’s sister Angelina. And I match with Durek’s half brother Brandon. That’s matches with 3 siblings with only Veruschka as the common parent.

I honestly don’t know what more proof you need other than that.

It is impossible for Oscar Farmer to be Veruschka’s father as I am not related to Mr Farmer – I  am related to Edward Brinn Jr. The Norwegian DNA chain goes from my Great Aunt Lilli to Edward Brinn Jr to Veruschka to Durek.

I hope this helps to settle this debate and clears up any confusion on your part.

The DNA does not lie.  

By the way, the wedding was incredible!

[Per.H.Skaug]

2 hours ago, Rus Olsen said:

I am a positive DNA match with 4 family members of Durek’s immediate family, on two different DNA sites (Ancestry & MyHeritage). I match with Durek’s Mom, Sheila/Veruschka. I match with Durek’s half sister Demetria. I match with Durek’s sister Angelina. And I match with Durek’s half brother Brandon. That’s matches with 3 siblings with only Veruschka as the common parent.

I honestly don’t know what more proof you need other than that.

 

 

Well, we don't need any more proof than that - this is exactly what was needed, and this settles it once and for all. The documentary evidence suggested the descent was through Oscar Farmer, but the fact that your DNA matches with descendants of Sheilah/Veruschka proves that it was through Edward Brinn Urquhart.

 

Glad you enjoyed the wedding - must have been an incredible experience!

[Per.H.Skaug]

Incidentally, this is a really good example of the possible validity and usefulness of a DNA test. Here, the documentation suggested one descent, but family lore suggested another descent. Multiple DNA tests were available, and proves that in this case, the family lore is correct and the information provided for the documentation was wrong.

[Kai Ståle Ødegård]

4 hours ago, Rus Olsen said:

....... The DNA does not lie.  

By the way, the wedding was incredible!

Thank you.

🙂

[Are S. Gustavsen]

På 5.9.2024 den 5.23, Rus Olsen skrev:

After seeing 5+ years of communications on this blog – your theories have been entertaining, to the legitimacy of Durek’s claim of Norwegian descent, I feel I can make this less complicated for you. DNA does not lie, as you all know.

I am definitively Durek’s 2nd cousin, once removed, and without any doubt, Durek has Norwegian DNA – here’s how.

My DNA shows I am over 50% Norwegian. Durek’s Great Grandmother (and my Great Aunt) Lillian “Lilli” Karense Gulovna Arnesen, is my Grandfather Christian Marinius Arnesen’s eldest sister, and they were 100% Norwegian. They both grew up in Sagene, Norway before moving to America in 1909.

My Great Aunt Lilli and Edward Brinn Sr had 2 children - Catherine and Edward Jr.

Edward Jr married Vera Tyson. Edward Jr & Vera had one child together, Sheila Brinn, who later changed her name to Veruschka. (The name Urquhart was used by her, and other family members on occasion as Frank Urquhart raised both Edward Jr and Catherine after Edward Brinn Sr died.)

Sheila/Veruschka had 5 children with 3 different spouses.                                                                                 * Demetria & Gina from her first spouse, Abdul Onder.                                                                                           * Angelina & Durek from her second spouse, David Verrett.                                                                            * Brandon from her third, Michael Clarke.                 

I am a positive DNA match with 4 family members of Durek’s immediate family, on two different DNA sites (Ancestry & MyHeritage). I match with Durek’s Mom, Sheila/Veruschka. I match with Durek’s half sister Demetria. I match with Durek’s sister Angelina. And I match with Durek’s half brother Brandon. That’s matches with 3 siblings with only Veruschka as the common parent.

I honestly don’t know what more proof you need other than that.

It is impossible for Oscar Farmer to be Veruschka’s father as I am not related to Mr Farmer – I  am related to Edward Brinn Jr. The Norwegian DNA chain goes from my Great Aunt Lilli to Edward Brinn Jr to Veruschka to Durek.

I hope this helps to settle this debate and clears up any confusion on your part.

The DNA does not lie.  

By the way, the wedding was incredible!

 

Rus et al,

 

I beg to differ.

 

Scientifically, all genealogical connections need to be proven. Merely stating you are in possession of proof is not enough. In order to make a valid scientific conclusion, the very same proof has to be presented, furthermore, presented accompanied by a sound argument.

 

At the same time, there are legit concerns the very same proof claimed (results from an analysis of a DNA sample, provided the sample can be proven to have been submitted by an identifiable person), may be subject to protection through privacy laws, thus making a presentation legally difficult in this thread.

 

So, I hold that the claim "The DNA does not lie." is highly problematic. It is blunt and categorical, thus hiding all the conditions needing to be present before even making use of a single person's DNA results as an element in an argumentation, furthermore defying all sound skepticism presented in the debate so far.

 

Conclusion: Nothing pertaining DNA in this debate is scientifically proven, to date.

 

Best regards,

 

Are

Endret September 9 av Are S. Gustavsen
Korrektur

[Vigdis Ross]

Söster til min tippoldefar finnes i sammenheng her

[Vigdis Ross]

.

Endret September 10 av Vigdis Ross

[Rus Olsen]

Are S Gustavsen. From a scientific standpoint, the DNA analysis conducted by reputable organizations such as Ancestry and MyHeritage provides amble robust evidence supporting the lineage from multiple family members. It appears that there is a reluctance on your part to acknowledge these findings, which could be construed as an attempt to maintain an unfounded narrative—perhaps even certain biases.

 

Isn't it unfortunate that our family will not acquiesce to your demands for personal validation of spitting into a vial and having you watch over the analysis of DNA being performed? 

 

It appears that you - as well as a few others, are drawing conclusions based on documents posted here that lack any credible scientific foundation. 

 

Should you find yourself in New Jersey, I invite you to examine the results firsthand, should you possess the intellectual curiosity to engage with the data.

[Anne M. Berge]

22 timer siden, Rus Olsen skrev:

Are S Gustavsen. From a scientific standpoint, the DNA analysis conducted by reputable organizations such as Ancestry and MyHeritage provides amble robust evidence supporting the lineage from multiple family members. It appears that there is a reluctance on your part to acknowledge these findings, which could be construed as an attempt to maintain an unfounded narrative—perhaps even certain biases.

 

Isn't it unfortunate that our family will not acquiesce to your demands for personal validation of spitting into a vial and having you watch over the analysis of DNA being performed? 

 

It appears that you - as well as a few others, are drawing conclusions based on documents posted here that lack any credible scientific foundation. 

 

Should you find yourself in New Jersey, I invite you to examine the results firsthand, should you possess the intellectual curiosity to engage with the data.

Rus, it would be helpful if you also transferred your DNA to FamilyTreeDNA, and joined the Norway DNA project. Any common relative in this family too. Transfer from MH or Ancestry is free. Then you can also connect your DNA-account to your profile on the Geni World tree.  You can contact me directly by email if you would like help with any of this.

[Are S. Gustavsen]

På 18.10.2024 den 7.52, Rus Olsen skrev:

Are S Gustavsen. From a scientific standpoint, the DNA analysis conducted by reputable organizations such as Ancestry and MyHeritage provides amble robust evidence supporting the lineage from multiple family members. It appears that there is a reluctance on your part to acknowledge these findings, which could be construed as an attempt to maintain an unfounded narrative—perhaps even certain biases.

 

Isn't it unfortunate that our family will not acquiesce to your demands for personal validation of spitting into a vial and having you watch over the analysis of DNA being performed? 

 

It appears that you - as well as a few others, are drawing conclusions based on documents posted here that lack any credible scientific foundation. 

 

Should you find yourself in New Jersey, I invite you to examine the results firsthand, should you possess the intellectual curiosity to engage with the data.

 

Rus Olsen,

 

Bias, you say. Well,, how about that. Let's turn the tables, since I detect a hint of vanity in your reply.

 

When making statements about genealogy, awareness concerning Hermeneutics is crucial. Being a part of social studies, we, as humans, are actually studying ourselves, often leading to several aspect of biases. A scientist's cultural background, religious affiliation and set of values etc, will more often than not, have him/her/they interpret evidence with bias. Awareness may help reduce possible bias.

 

Bias in genealogy has been know as a phenomenon ever since we began acknowledging genealogy as an academic discipline. The problem has increased exponentially, after the introduction of DNA-testing within the same discipline.

 

Meaning, the trust the average user extend to the services provided by Ancestry and MyHeritage and others is misguided, as these providers are not sufficiently scientific per se. That is, not sufficiently meeting the same standard of scientific quality as oath-based written statements by the officials in our society tasked with issuing birth and baptism certificates, respectively, be it delivery room personell (doctors and or midwifes), publically appointed registrars or the clergy (pastors and ministers alike).

 

Until there is a method that can legally validate that the correct individuals have submitted DNA-samples, while validating that the samples are securely transported to an approved laboratory, which performs the sequencing and produces a report correctly linking said individual to the test results, there remains doubts connected to whether the results are credible or not. That is a significant problem. And this only the first step.  

 

Furthermore, there needs to be a written analysis bringing said result into a context in conjunction with traditional genealogy, in order to have said results have any significance at all.

 

On top of that, the document validating that the right person is linked to the right results, will remain a matter protected by privacy laws in most countries. Meaning, even if you have got interesting results, these may not be available for publication without violating the very same privacy laws. Thus rendering personal DNA results useless for the purpose of a scientific debate, for instance in this thread or at this forum.

 

Bringing me back to  Hermeneutics: Touting DNA-based heritage claims in social media and public debate, wanting the public to believe it's a matter of science, is tantamount to breathe under water. Both matters are very much impossible.

 

Thanks,

Are

Endret Oktober 19 av Are S. Gustavsen
Korrektur

[Per.H.Skaug]

Are,

 

are you not setting an unreasonably high standard of proof here?

 

i think it is a valid discussion to look at the scientific validity of DNA-tests in general, and whether the chain of custody can be verified and the origin of a DNA test submitted can be absolutely proven.

 

However, that is (and probably should be) an entirely different discussion than whether these particular DNA tests (and the relationships that can be deduced from them) are valid.

 

If one accepts the validity of DNA tests in genealogy using commercial testing services, this relationship appears to be proven. If one does not, it invalidates all relationships that are based on commercial DNA testing, and not only this relationship.

 

I have been very doubtful about this "Norwegian connection", due to the lack of documentary evidence for Veruschka's father. However, if we apply the same DNA test requirements for this relationship as those that seems to be generally accepted (at least among those who subscribe to the usefulness of DNA testing in genealogy), it would appear that the evidence is that Veruschka Taylor and therefore Durek Verret is related to Rus Olsen (and implicitly of Norwegian descent).

 

Bias from vanity and a perceived royal connection may obviously impact the opinions of participants in this debate, but that should really be irrelevant for this discussion and the conclusions made.

 

At least in my opinion, the Norwegian connection is now established - just as much as I consider family relationships in my own family established when they are validated through DNA-testing. Would this testing be valid evidence in a court of law in and of itself? Probably not, due to the chain of custody issues, so the tests would probably need to be repeated under supervision. But then, this is not a legal, nor for that matter a scientific, issue.