Christian Lars Jourgensen

[Ian White-Thomson]

Looking for my great-grandfather, Christian Lars Jourgensen (that's how he spelled it - might have been Jørgensen I suppose) born in Norway about 1848. Parents were Jan Jourgensen and Anna Margrete Brown (last name spelling not clear.) Anna Brown moved to England (she was probably born British) and married an English fisherman, later moved to USA. I would love to find where in Norway Jan came from and hopefully his parents. Thanks.

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Hello.

 

I think your question rather should have been posted in the userforum: 

 

Brukernes eget forum

 

(Perhaps one of the moderators will move it?)

 

I’ll paste some information you provided from FamilySearch:

 

Name: Christian Jourgensen
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Nov 1873
Event Place: Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States
Event Place (Original): Brooklyn, Kings, New York
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Race: White
Birth Year (Estimated): 1847
Birthplace: Norway
Father's Name: Jan Jourgensen
Mother's Name: Anna Margaret Brown
Spouse's Name: Emma Cropp James
Spouse's Gender: Female
Spouse's Age: 23
Spouse's Race: White
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1850
Spouse's Birthplace: England
Spouse's Father's Name: William James
Spouse's Mother's Name: Jane Francis

Reference ID: cn 1609
GS Film Number: 1543911
 

Citing this Record
"New York, New York City Marriage Records, 1829-1940," database, FamilySearch ( https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24Z2-3S8 : 10 February 2018), Jane Francis in entry for Christian Jourgensen and Emma Cropp James, 27 Nov 1873; citing Marriage, Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States, New York City Municipal Archives, New York; FHL microfilm 1,543,911. 

 

[Ian White-Thomson]

Thanks, Anne-Lise. I'm afraid I don't know what the forum you referred to is, not speaking any Norwegian. Thanks for the info about his marriage - that's the guy! I know quite a lot about him after he left Norway, and especially after he arrived in the USA, but nothing about his birthplace or father. Ian

 

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

In the userforum we are many who can help you search for Christian’s baptism, but the National Archives (where you posted your question) do not do the genealogical search for you. 

[Anne-Lise Hansen]

Have you found this family in any of the Censuses or in other sources?

[Ian White-Thomson]

So how should I switch to the user forum? 

On your second post, yes I tracked him and his mother in the UK 1851 census, in South Shields in N. England, married to Gilbert Leckey, an Irish (not English) sailor; Christian was in the census under the last name Leckey, but it must have been my boy. Soon after that they moved to NY (no immigration record found) and in 1853 Gilbert applied for naturalization. The family but not Christian were in the 1855 census in Brooklyn; Christian was probably working with the Union army by this time.

[Arkivverket - Anita Riise]

I have now moved ypur thread to "Brukerforum"

[Richard Johan Natvig]

Is this the same family?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJHD-ZQK

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Possibly him in New York 

 

Christian Jourgensen

 in the 1880 United States Federal Census

Name:Christian Jourgensen

Age:31

Birth Date:Abt 1849

Birthplace:Norway

Home in 1880:Brooklyn, Kings, New York, USA

Street:Willoughby Ave

House Number:124

Dwelling Number:162

Race:White

Gender:Male

Relation to Head of House:Self (Head)

Marital status:Married

Spouse's name:Emma Jourgensen

Father's Birthplace:Norway

Mother's Birthplace:Norway

Occupation:Stationary

Neighbors:View others on page

Household Members:

NameAge

Christian Jourgensen31

Emma Jourgensen29

Emma Jourgensen5

Marther Jourgensen21

 

Marther  Jourgensen is listed as a sister. First name could be Martha or Martia. Her birth place is given as New York. Not sure that makes sense? Parents are listed as from Norway. 

 

Christian Lars A Jourgensen

 in the U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925

Name:Christian Lars A Jourgensen

Age:41

Birth Date:14 Mar 1846

Birth Place:Norway

Passport Issue Date:9 Apr 1887

Has Photo:No

Endret Mars 18, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Christian Jourgensen

 in the New York, Wills and Probate Records, 1659-1999

Name:Christian Jourgensen

Probate Date:14 Oct 1895

Probate Place:Kings, New York, USA

Inferred Death Year:Abt 1895

Inferred Death Place:New York, USA

Item Description:Wills, Vol 0207-0209, 1895-1896

 

 

So is Martha a sister or a step-sister? 

Endret Mars 18, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

In the 1851 English Census there is only the child Christian no Martha (sp?)

 

 

Christian Lackey

 in the 1851 England Census

Name:Christian Lackey

Age:3

Estimated birth year:abt 1848

Relation:Son

Mother's name:Ann Lackey

Gender:Male

Where born:British Subject, Norway

Civil Parish:South Shields

Ecclesiastical parish:St Stephen

Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:

View related Ecclesiastical Parish

County/Island:Durham

Country:England

Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Disability:

View image

Registration district:South Shields

Sub-registration district:South Shields

ED, institution, or vessel:1e

Neighbors:View others on page

Household schedule number:126

Piece:2400

Folio:139

Page Number:25

Household Members:

NameAge

Ann Lackey33

Christian Lackey3

 

 

Endret Mars 18, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

 

Ann Lackey

 in the New York, State Census, 1855

Name:Ann Lackey

Birth Year:abt 1820

Age:35

Relation to Head:Wife

Residence:New York City, Ward 4, New York, New York, USA

District:E.D. 3

Household number:900

Line Number:44

Household Members:

NameAge

Gilbert Lackey40

Ann Lackey35

John Lackey3

Edward Lackey2

Christian Lackey1

 

 

 

 

Endret Mars 18, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Ian White-Thomson]

Wow, you are an impressive group! How to answer all these issues? The 1850 christening is new to me; I think William must have died in infancy as he doesn't appear anywhere else. The family name in the US was Leckey not Lackey, but obviously the same people. Martha (definitely the right spelling) wasn't born till 1858, by which time they were in NY. She was Christian's half-sister, but they were very close; she lived in Brooklyn with my gt-grandmother for many years after he died. Interesting that mother Ann has changed first names from Anna Margrete to Ann McGregor! The christening record says she was a British subject born in Norway - intriguing! I'm sure that Christian Lackey in the 1851 census is my great-grandfather. He must have changed his name back to Jourgensen when he grew up (or perhaps it was just a census mistake). Now if we can only find Jan and Ann's wedding! Many thanks for all your help.

[Anton Hagelee]

43 minutes ago, Ian White-Thomson said:

. Now if we can only find Jan and Ann's wedding! Many thanks for all your help.

 

Do you have any evidence that Jan and Ann were married? 

[Ian White-Thomson]

Haha! Only that they had a baby together! Can only speculate what happened next; Jan's death, divorce or simply end of a relationship.

[Ian White-Thomson]

I'd forgotten that Christian's application for a US passport gives his DOB as March 14 1846  - presumably the correct date.

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Charles Jourgensen

 in the New York, State Census, 1875

Name:Charles JourgensenAge:27Gender:MaleBirth Year:abt 1848Residence Date:1 Jun 1875Residence Place:Brooklyn Ward 20, Kings, New York, USAElection District:Ward 20, E.D. 04Household number:29Relation to Head:HeadSpouse's name:Emma C JourgensenLine Number:3Sheet Number:4Household Members:

NameAge

Charles Jourgensen27

Emma C Jourgensen24

Emma C Jourgensen0

Martha Lakey18

John Lakey23

Edward Lakey21

[Anton Hagelee]

Above is his passport application dated 1887. This may a return record for he and his wife and two children in 1892. 

 

 

Mr. C L Jourgensen

 in the New York, Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

Name:Mr. C L Jourgensen 

Arrival Date:19 Oct 1892

Birth Date:abt 1848

Age:44

Gender:Male

Port of Departure:Liverpool, England

Port of Arrival:New York, New York

Ship Name:City of Paris

 

Others were 

 

Mrs. Jourgensen born abt 1855

MS. C Jourgensen born abt 1863

MS. M Jourgensen born abt 1874

 

Not a perfect fit for the birth years except to Mr. C L, Also it looks like he is listed as a publisher, does that fit Christian Lars?

 

 

 

Endret Mars 19, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Ian White-Thomson]

Thanks! The census shows Christian and his Welsh wife Emma née James having just produced my grandmother Emma Christine. He is also looking after his half sister and half brothers, the Leckey parents having died a couple of years earlier. By the time of the trip to England he is doing well as a publisher/ stationer.  Don't know the purpose of the trip, except maybe tourism. Yes, the birth dates aren't quite right but close enough.

[Anton Hagelee]

What I am looking for in the trip is did he return to Norway for a visit. One of the issues we have here is that we do  not know where in Norway to look for his birth record. That makes the task of finding his father  very difficult. 

 

Any light you can shed on where in Norway the two of them Anna Brown and son Christian Lars are from would be a big plus.

 

A general search of records throughout Norway has not been very successful so far. 

Endret Mars 19, 2020 av Anton Hagelee

[Ian White-Thomson]

I agree. He left Norway as a small child, so he may not have felt a call to go back. I know that the name Jan Jourgensen is a very common one, and I have no idea what part of Norway they came from. I was hoping that there might be either birth or marriage (?) records. If Le/ackey was a sailor, she probably met him on the coast - but it's a long coast! Appreciate your efforts!

[Richard Johan Natvig]

19 timer siden, Ian White-Thomson skrev:

I'd forgotten that Christian's application for a US passport gives his DOB as March 14 1846  - presumably the correct date.

 

However, on his memorial stone it says March 14 1850! So what to believe? (Probably one of the other sources.)

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/50575565/christian-laus-jourgensen

(Laus is a misreading of Lars)

See also here: http://scholtz.org/Genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I1047&tree=MyTree

 

Endret Mars 19, 2020 av Richard Johan Natvig

[Ian White-Thomson]

Good question! However, if the stone is right he would have only been one year old not 3 for the 1851 UK census - so I agree, probably another mistake by the cemetery. You reference Bob Scholtz's work; he has been incredibly useful to me for the James side of the family.

[Richard Johan Natvig]

På 19.3.2020 den 3.56, Ian White-Thomson skrev:

I know that the name Jan Jourgensen is a very common one, and I have no idea what part of Norway they came from.

 

After the summer, hopefully (depending on the corona virus development, I suppose), all the scanned churchbooks 1815-1927 will be searchable, so there is hope for the patient ones! 

 

 

[Ian White-Thomson]

Great! I'm patient! One plus is that if there was a marriage, the fact that it was to a foreigner may be a bit unusual. (What was she doing in Norway, I wonder.) Of course, from the British end Brown and Smith are the classic common names!