William Hammond Trondheim

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Hi everyone,

while looking for my ancestors to verify a coat of arms I found several documents of my great grandfather. In 1950 he wrote down the family story and made a family tree, starting with William Hammond, * Dec 11th 1662 in Ufford, Suffolk, GB, + July 4th, 1710 in Trondheim. He married Abel Margarethe Angell on Oct. 11th 1700. They had a son, William, who was born July 28th, 1707.

 

All over the whole internet I always find, that he was born 1664, but I found a book, which my great grandfather mentioned in his records („Suffolk Manorial Families“ Vol I). In this book is a pedigree of the Hammonds of Ufford and William is mentioned "born 1662". Apart from that we own a ring with a coat of arms on it. While I was looking through different sites I found a norwegian drawing of this coat of arms which is extremely close to our ring. From the college of arms, London, I received a copy of the Heraldic Visitation from 1687 in London, where William, born in Ufford, Suffolk, "now linving in Norway" is mentioned.

My family now wants to proof that we are related to this Hammonds and therefor I alreadey found lots of informations in the digital archive of Norway and Denmark.

 

But now I`m stuck.... 😞

I need to find the following documents for the following Williams:

Birth and / or baptism certificate for William Hammond, born July 28th, 1707 in Trondheim

marriage certificate for William Hammond and Abel Margarethe Angell, marriage Oct. 11th, 1700 in Trondheim

death certificate for William Hammond, died July 4th, 1710 in Trondheim.

 

To scroll through the old churchbooks takes time, I know, but my problem is, that I have difficulties to read the old writing and I don't speak norwegian. I'm a little desperate and hope that I'll find here someone, who can help me. (I wrote an Email to the Archive and they suggested to register here, because of the nice and clever community).

 

Please excuse my english and also, if I chose the wrong thread.

 

Best regards from Appen, near Hamburg in Germany,

Medes 🙂

[Inger Hohler]

Hello, Medes,
welcome to the forum. Please check out the forum rules - we have to use full names here.

I have found the documents about the economical dispositions of the estate after the death of William Hammond, from 1710. https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090203410657
In most of the document the widow is simply referred to as  widow of the late Wiliam Hammond, but it looks as if she had a ward called Jonas Angell, and the ward would normally be a family member. Towards the very end the name Abel Hamond is mentioned, but I did not see that it said 'widow' in that connection. Presumably that was not necessary.

A Johan Hamond is mentioned as a person (one among several) with whom William Hamond had been doing business.  
To me it looks as if William Hammond left a daughter Hanna Margretha/Margrethe, as well as a son William Hamond, and a second son Lorentz(?) Hamond. (page 653b-654a)
The boys inherited 576:3:22 6/7 each, the daughter 288:1:3/4(?) The numbers are a little hard to read, but it should be half of what one brother received.

I think the widow was left with 2019:1:20

I'll see what else I can come up with, but if your family is sufficiently interested the list of belongings may be more interesting that just the dates of death etc.
 

[Inger Hohler]

I could not find the engagement between William Hammond and Abel Margretha Angell, but they seem to have been married before Oct. 02.1702 when 'Abel Margrethe Willum Hamonds' was sponsor to the child Jacob Hersleb https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070920660551

 

I have been looking through SAT, Ministerialprotokoller, klokkerbøker og fødselsregistre - Sør-Trøndelag, 601/L0034: Ministerialbok nr. 601A02, 1702-1714, which contains christenings from the Cathedral in Trondheim. 

Abel Margretha's last name flips between Angel and (Madame) Hamond, here on opposing sides of the church records in 1703 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070920660562

Both (Monsr./Sr.) William/Willum Ham(m)on(d) and his wife were sponsors at several baptisms in the Cathedral. I do not find William Hammond after 1709. This lessens the chance of there being two adults in Trondheim named William Hammond during the same period. 

 

However, the only Willum/William Hamond christened in the period was the son of Thomas Hamond and his wife Sara, date 21.07.1708.

I am guessing that William Hammond and Abel Margretha Angel were living in another parish in Trondheim. The church of Our Lady (Vår Frue) was destroyed by a fire in 1708. https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vår_Frue_kirke_(Trondheim) Church records from the time seem to be scant for a variety of reasons. I haven't checked which books have actually survived, but the only church records available online from Trondheim before 1710 are from the cathedral.

 

I do see that the page https://lokalhistoriewiki.no/wiki/Hammond gives the year 1702 as the birth year of William's and Abel Margretha's daughter Hanna, so presumably there are records somewhere which have enabled at least estimating a birth year from other sources. 

 

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Hi Inger,

I'm so sorry, I didn't use my full name. Where can I complete my name in my account? I couldn't find the button...

 

The document you linked I found also, but I had no idea, what it was about until you explained it. Thank you so much!!!! ♥

 

 

I also found documents about Williams wife. For example this one where Jonas Angell is mentioned.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16324/50748/117

 

There "widow" is not mentioned because it's from 1707 and William died 1710? And could it be that she was godmother and Jonas is not here son?

 

Yes, William Hammond + 1710 Trondheim, left amongst other a son William, *1707 Trondheim and + 1787 in Slagelse, DK. His other children were Hannah 1702-1734, Abel 1703-1703, Rebecca 1705-unknown, Abel Margrethe 1706-1787, Lorentz 1709-1716.

 

best regards,

Medes Hammond-Norden

 

 

 

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Hi Inger,

I just wanted to explain, why I'm looking for this special documents:

we have a ring with a coat of arms in our family:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3y98c8idbrb8v5g/Foto 03.10.17%2C 22 36 02.jpg?dl=0

 

We asked the German Herold if this is really our coat of arms and send lots of information. They now need birth and marriage and death documents of William, * 28.07.1707 in Trondheim, marriage of his parents William and Abel Margrethe Angell 11.10.1700 in Trondheim and death of his father 1710 in Trondheim. If we can send them these documents, we can built the family tree from today back to Edward Hammond of Wessilton (Westleton?) Hall *1595.

 

Medes 🙂

[knut fasting]

Here  is a picture of a silver cup owned by Thomas H, 1639 - 1681, Williams brother.

Endret Mars 6, 2021 av knut fasting

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Hi Knut,

thank you for the picture!

I'm not sure, if that Thomas was "my" Williams brother. The William who went from Ufford, Suffolk to Trondheim was born 1664. He Had a brother Thomas, who was born 1662. Here's a link to my dropbox showing the Heraldic Visitation in London in 1687. On the right side you see William and his brother Thomas.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xhwqnfzgtvpz5eb/Foto 27.06.19%2C 20 35 13.png?dl=0

 

I think, that the Thomas you mentioned could be his uncle who married a Sara.

 

Medes 🙂

[knut fasting]

Yout William ,borne i Trondheim 1664, is the son of William, 1629 - dead before July 1710.

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

William, born 1664 (1687 23 years old) is the son of William, born 1635 (1687 ca. 52 years old)

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7lflmn1zn1xw1v/1 Pedigree Hammond of Ufford.pdf?dl=0

 

Do we talk about the same William?

[Inger Hohler]

Not accepting possession of an item with a coat of arms as proof of descent is quite common. On the other hand, only accepting marriage records and christenings is not common. If you can prove your descent back to someone who was legally the son or daughter of William Hammond I find it hard to believe that you need to know their date of birth from church records - especially since most clergy at the time only made note of the day of the christening, not the birth itself.

Delivering exactly what the Herolds asked for may not be possible. However, it may be that they can accept wills and documents of inheritance as proof of relatedness. 
There is proof in the 'skifteprotokoll' document

SAT, Trondheim byfogd, 3/3A/L0006: Skifteprotokoll - gml.nr.6. (m/ register) U, 1705-1711, s. 646b-647a

that a William Hammond in Trondheim, dead before August 08th 1710 when the 'skifteforretning' started, left part of his fortune to his sons William Hammond, Lorentz, and Hanna Margretha.  He also left a widow. The protocol would have been started soon after his death, and it is a legal document.

This 'skifteprotokoll' after William Hammond contains no information that Abel Margrethe Angel was the children's mother, but there are church records which verify that Abel Margrethe Angel was married to William Hammond at least as far back as 1702.  

 

Apparently, according to this web site https://www.strindahistorielag.no/wiki/index.php/William_Hammond there exists another document which proves that a William Hammond, father of William Hamond, left money to his grandchildren by the son William Hammond in his testament of 05.02.1714. I have not seen the document, so I don't know if the children are referred to by name, as they are in the web site above. It is likely that there are other documents in existence which may help. That same web page claims the date of marriage was 11.10.1700 so presumably there is a source for this information, somewhere. We just don't know if it is a primary source.

 

Try this link for figuring out how to change your account's name https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/219/user-accounts-logging-in-and-discussion-forum. 

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Perhaps I chose the wrong words:

The Herold accepted my ancestries at least up to Lorentz Hammond, 1735 Trondheim - 1808 Bakkendrup, DK. He was the son of William 1707-1787 and the grnadson of William 1664-1710.

The Herold doesn't want me to deliver the dates but pages from the churchbooks. I think maybe to proove, that they were alive and my pedigree isn't just a recorded fairy tale of my great grandfather?

 

I knew that only the ring is no proof. I unfortunately I don't know, where the ring comes from. My father (Henning) got it from his aunt (Käthe), because his father (Wilhelm) didn't survive WW II and he (Wilhelm) should have gotten it from his father (Albert Heinrich). So Albert Heinrich gave it to his daughter Käthe to once give it to my dad.

 

I have an ancestor passport which was made between 1939 and 1945 (for a niece of may great grandfather who moved to USA). It shows the pedigree up to Lorentz Hammond and also a drawing of the coat of arms. It correspondences exactly to the blazon mentioned in thr document from the College of arms I have (link above to my dropbox). But obviously it's not enough proof.

 

I have contacted a heraldist and he helps me in this case. He also is sure that it's "our" coat of arms. I hope, that we be succesful with your help, Inger. All your hints are so worthful for me!!! Especially the ones referring to the skifteprotokoll. I will try to find out on which page which part excactly tells about William, Lorentz and Hanna and his wife. If that is not proof enough, I don't know...

 

I tried the link to the archivenet. There I'm registerd already with my full name. afterwards I registered here in the forum and was asked for my name here. That's why I only choose Medes.

Endret Mars 6, 2021 av Medes

[Berit Knudsen]

How to change your name https://forum.arkivverket.no/

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Berit Knudsen

[Berit Knudsen]

Kan noen oversette for meg.

 

Man kan ikke stole helt på Angell, funnet en del feil i datoer.

 

Slekten Angell.

Abel Margrethe Lorentzdatter Angell f. 13/10 1685. Hun eide og bebodde 1723-1740 Ihlsvigen, som senere eides av hennes sønn William Hammond.

Hun ble gift 1.gang 11/10 1700 med Villiam Hammond som ble gravlagt 10/6 1710. Kjøpmann i Trondheim.

Skifte etter han startet 8/8 1710 og avsluttet 2/3 1712.

Deres barn er også omtalt der.

William var ikke sønn av Thomas Hammond, men var sønn av William Hammond i England som iflg. testamente av 5/2 1714 hadde testamentert

sine sønnebarn, Hanna, Margretha og Willum 250 pund,- Nordmøre pantebok B, folie (nr.side) 136.

Abel M. ble 2.gift med Mathias Lorentzen Holst, død 1716.

 

Se Sofus Elvius - Familien Hagerup (København 1902 side. 43 og 44.)

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Berit Knudsen

[Berit Knudsen]

Nordmøre pantebok B s. 136 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20080403670218

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Hi Berit,

I finally found the right button... 🙂

 

Thank you for your found and your link to the source!

The Hagerup family also has a website, where all the surnames can be found, also "my" Wiliam, with whome it all started. I already wrote an Email to the owner Peter Hagerup asking for further notes. He built the tree down to Peter Hammond *1778, but gives no sources. But I have them for Peter and his son and so on until to me. Perhaps he is interested.

 

Now I'm trying to put all these new informations into an Email to my heraldist. Which doesn't mean, I'm not interested in further information. This forum is unbelievable! If I had known earlier.... But, on the other hand it's important to walk through all these books and information by yourself to understand how much can go wrong and how many mistakes there are to be made, although one always thinks: this must be right... 🙃

 

Medes

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Medes Hammond-Norden

[knut fasting]

https://www.geelmuyden-info.no/TNG/pedigree.php?personID=I15130&tree=Geelmuyden

 

Her kalles "forpakter Worms datter" Christine Wium 

[Anita Holck]

        

 

Jeg forsøker med to skjermdumper fra Brodahl: Trøndersk personalhistorie, den første fra Vår Frue sogn 1704-1732, s. 78, 1710 og den andre fra Domsognet 1704-1729, s. 115, 1710

[Anita Holck]

Skifteprotokollen er allerede lagt inn, 

Oppslag 657 - 665 https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25082/657

Skifteforretning efter afg: William Hamond Anno 1710 dend 8de Aug
... skifte efter den sal. mand, mellem hans efterlatte enke Abel Margrethe Angel paa ....(?), oc deris fælles Børn, nemlig,
William Hamon paa 4de Aar gammel
Lorentz Hamond 3/4 Aar
Anna Margretha Hamon paa 9de Aar (= Hanna Margrethe)
Abel Margrethe Hamon paa 7de Aar og
Rebecca Hamon paa 5te Aar

 

 

[Anita Holck]

Brodahl, Trøndersk personalhistorie II, Bryllup og barnedaap i Vor Frue sogn 1653-1732, s. 21, 1730

 

 

Vår Frue, Trondheim, oppslag 21, 1738, 24 Januar

[Inger Hohler]

Quote

Kan noen oversette for meg.

 

Man kan ikke stole helt på Angell, funnet en del feil i datoer.

 

Slekten Angell.

Abel Margrethe Lorentzdatter Angell f. 13/10 1685. Hun eide og bebodde 1723-1740 Ihlsvigen, som senere eides av hennes sønn William Hammond.

Hun ble gift 1.gang 11/10 1700 med Villiam Hammond som ble gravlagt 10/6 1710. Kjøpmann i Trondheim.

Skifte etter han startet 8/8 1710 og avsluttet 2/3 1712.

Deres barn er også omtalt der.

William var ikke sønn av Thomas Hammond, men var sønn av William Hammond i England som iflg. testamente av 5/2 1714 hadde testamentert

sine sønnebarn, Hanna, Margretha og Willum 250 pund,- Nordmøre pantebok B, folie (nr.side) 136.

Abel M. ble 2.gift med Mathias Lorentzen Holst, død 1716.

 

Se Sofus Elvius - Familien Hagerup (København 1902 side. 43 og 44.)

An attempt at translation:
'Can someone translate for me.

One cannot fully trust Angell, found a few incorrect dates.

 

Slekten Angell. (Inger's comment: This is the name of a book)

Abel Margrethe Lorentzdatter Angell born 13/10 1685. She owned and lived at Ihlsvigen, 1723-1740 which was later owned by her son William Hammond.

She was first married to  Villiam Hammond . on 11/10 1700. He was buried 10/6 1710. 'Kjøpmann'  in Trondheim.
(Inger's comment: Kjøpmann is hard to translate as it conveys information about the sort of wares he was able to buy and offer, I think it means that he was able to buy and sell both retail and whole sale. A little over a 100 years later it was possible to be 'kjøpmann', 'kremmer' or 'høker'. A 'kjøpmann' usually paid higher taxes than a 'kremmer', who normally paid higher taxes than a 'høker'. He would have to become a citized of the town to be either.)

'Skifte' after Villiam Hammond started 8/8 1710 and was completed 2/3 1712.

(Inger's comment: I don't know what 'skifte' is called in English. The process of 'skifte' is normally initiated when an inheritance is to be passed on to those who inherit after the death of the person who leave the estate. Debts have to be paid, or new deals made, what is owed to the estate need to be collected if possible, and the estate after a deduction of debt is divided between those who inherit. If the estate had any worth there would be witnesses and officials present, and estate and the inheritance would be recorded for tax and legal purposes.)

Their children  are also mentioned there.

William was not the son of Thomas Hammond, but was the son of William Hammond in England who, according to his will of 5/2 1714 had willed

his son's children, Hanna, Margretha and Willum 250 pounds,- Nordmøre pantebok B, folie (no.page) 136.

(Inger's comments: I think there must be some misunderstanding here. William Hammond left one daughter called Hanna Margretha according to the 'skifte' completed in 1712. Any posthumous children would have been mentioned in that document, so the two daugthers Hanna and Margretha means there is an error somewhere. If Lorentz had died between 1712 and 1714 he might not be mentioned in the will of 1714.)

Abel M. was married a second time to Mathias Lorentzen Holst, dead 1716.

 

See Sofus Elvius - Familien Hagerup (København 1902 page. 43 and 44.)

 

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Inger Hohler
Made all my comments italic. Corrected a spelling mistake.

[Inger Hohler]

Correction: Now that I re-read the 'skifte' I do see that  all three daughters of William and Abel Margrethe are inheriting, and were therefore alive in 1712.
And it's great to see that Abel Margrethe Angel was mentioned by name at the beginning, because it definitely ties her to William Hammond.

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Inger Hohler

[Berit Knudsen]

William Hammond. Start skiftet 8/8 1710 Trondhjem byfogd 1705-1711 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090203410657

Page 646B - 652A

[knut fasting]

https://www.geni.com/list/descendants/389264579570012548#10

[Berit Knudsen]

 

Willum Hamond 1707 22. ?  introd.

Domkirken: top right page https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070920660655

 

Angell:

William born 4. august 1707 i Kamerr.(?), død 4. juni 1787 i Slagelse, hvor han bodde. Reiste til København i 1752.

William Hammond sies  11. aug. 1730 at ha betalt for sin vielse i Vor Frue kirke i Trondhjem (Lektor Joh. E. Brodahl : Trønderske Personalhist. II (Trondhjem 1935 page 21 i.f.)

Kirkeboken for Vor Frue begynner først 1732.

[Per.H.Skaug]

Since Inger was not aware of the english word for skifte, it is probate.