William Hammond Trondheim

[Inger Hohler]

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Nordmøre pantebok B s. 136 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20080403670218

Berit Knudsen's reference is also an official source which tells us that Abel Margrethe Angel, who had been married to Mathias Holst, had also been married to Willum Hamond. In this document, the will of 1714 is mentioned. The children said to have benefited from it were Hanna Margaretha Hamond, Abel Hamond, and Willum Hamond. 

'testamentered af deris farfar afgangne Willum Hamand.'
willed to them by their deceased father's father Willum Hamand.
Pund Sterling is mentioned (Pound Steriling) which does indicate an English connection.

 

This document is a 'tinglysningsdokument'. It means that its content were noted in the records of one of the official 'things'. These were gatherings with a legal standing. Court cases were heard, wills could be made official, illegitimate children could be legally recognized, deals could be made official and everything was noted and duly signed.

 

It looks as if the date is 1725, 14.th of July. 

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

1 time siden, Inger Hohler skrev:

Correction: Now that I re-read the 'skifte' I do see that  all three daughters of William and Abel Margrethe are inheriting, and were therefore alive in 1712.
And it's great to see that Abel Margrethe Angel was mentioned by name at the beginning, because it definitely ties her to William Hammond.

Hi Inger,

could you please do me the favour an name the pages where I can find the children and Abel Margarethe?

I really still have difficulties in reading the handwriting... 😞

 

 

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

31 minutter siden, Berit Knudsen skrev:

 

Willum Hamond 1707 22. ?  introd.

Domkirken: top right page https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070920660655

 

Angell:

William born 4. august 1707 i Kamerr.(?), død 4. juni 1787 i Slagelse, hvor han bodde. Reiste til København i 1752.

William Hammond sies  11. aug. 1730 at ha betalt for sin vielse i Vor Frue kirke i Trondhjem (Lektor Joh. E. Brodahl : Trønderske Personalhist. II (Trondhjem 1935 page 21 i.f.)

Kirkeboken for Vor Frue begynner først 1732.

Hi Berit,

are you sure and did I get you right, that this hint is Williams birth or baptism? I also found this source and sent it to the heraldist who is helping me. He thinks, that in this document William, *1664 is mentioned as godfather. (as far as I got the heraldist right)

[Anita Holck]

23 minutter siden, Medes Hammond-Norden skrev:

are you sure and did I get you right, that this hint is Williams birth or baptism?

No, this means that the wife of William Hammond was introduced in church on 22 Sept. 1707, which was usually apx. 2 months after childbirth.

 

The names of the wife and children are on page 646b (657) on top, and starts with "William Hamon...." in the screenshot I made from the document. They are mentioned again at the end of the skifte, bottom left "The oldest Son William Hamond ...., The second Son Lorentz Hamond...." Top right side "Daughter Hanna Margrethe Hamon..." next "Vibikke Hamon...." and "Abel Hamon".

 

In the testament 5. Febr. 171(4) after the grandfather of the children William Hammond in England (testament mentioned 14/7-1725) only 3 children are mentioned, Hanna Margrethe, Abel and William, I believe this means that Lorentz and Vibecke are dead before 1714. In the document 14/7-1725 only 2 children are mentioned Hanna Margrethe and William, does this mean that also Abel is dead in 1725?

 

 

 

 

[Inger Hohler]

 

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"Vibikke Hamon...."

Isn't it Rebecca? I believe it starts with an R, and Rebecca was already in use in the Angel family.

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

15 minutter siden, Anita Holck skrev:

No, this means that the wife of William Hammond was introduced in church on 22 Sept. 1707, which was usually apx. 2 months after childbirth.

 

The names of the wife and children are on page 646b (657) on top, and starts with "William Hamon...." in the screenshot I made from the document. They are mentioned again at the end of the skifte, bottom left "The oldest Son William Hamond ...., The second Son Lorentz Hamond...." Top right side "Daughter Hanna Margrethe Hamon..." next "Vibikke Hamon...." and "Abel Hamon".

 

In the testament 5. Febr. 171(4) after the grandfather of the children William Hammond in England (testament mentioned 14/7-1725) only 3 children are mentioned, Hanna Margrethe, Abel and William, I believe this means that Lorentz and Vibecke are dead before 1714. In the document 14/7-1725 only 2 children are mentioned Hanna Margrethe and William, does this mean that also Abel is dead in 1725?

 

 

 

 

William *1664 and his wife Abel Margrethe Angell had 6 children as far as I know:

Hanna Magrethe 1702-1734

Abel 1703-1703

Rebecca 1705-??

Abel Margrethe 1706-1787

Lorentz 1709-1716

William 1707-1787

 

Could it be, that Vibikke is Rebecca?

[Anita Holck]

Some of the information in Brodahls books ar from the Kirkeregnskaper (Church accounts?), not from the churchbooks/records. The dates in the Kirkeregnskaper was when a ceremony was paid for (funeral, wedding...), and this could be weeks and months after the ceremony took place. The screenshot of William Hammonds marriage in Vor Frue 11/8-1730 is when he paid for his wedding ceremony.

[Anita Holck]

 

5 minutter siden, Medes Hammond-Norden skrev:

Could it be, that Vibikke is Rebecca?

Yes, my mistake

[Berit Knudsen]

Abel Margr. 1. marriage:

1) Hanna Margrethe H. 27/3 1702 - 1734, married. 2) Abel H. 1703 - 1703. 3) Rebecha H. 1705 - ?. 4) Abel Margrethe H. 10/4 1706 - 22/6 1787, married,

5) William H. 4/8 1707 - 4/6 1787, married twice. 6) Lorentz H. nov. 1709 - 1716.

 

Abel Margr. 2. marriage:

7) Lorentz Holst 1713 - 1719. 😎 HansHolst 1714 -1715. 9) Hans Holst 1715 - 1780, married 3times)  

 

Brodahl Joh. E. Kirkeregnskap for Domkirken og Vor Frue.

1730 Willum Hammonds vielse i huset. https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/efdf65f11c6222f79c629716589dc249?index=2#21

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Berit Knudsen

[Anita Holck]

But where does all this exact dates come from? Because the churchbooks does not tell us this. Is there a family bible or something somewhere?

 

[Inger Hohler]

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In the document 14/7-1725 only 2 children are mentioned Hanna Margrethe and William, does this mean that also Abel is dead in 1725?

Probably not. Abel Margrethe Angel mentions her 'dear son-in-law Christian Holst', who, according to this source https://melamartnan.no/18-2/fruen-abel-meyer/ died long before his wife Abel Margrethe Hamond, who apparently died childless in 1787 after being widowed a second time.
I'll see if I can find a better reference for A.M.H. still being alive in 1725.

[Berit Knudsen]

Kilder:

Hornemanns håndskreven stamtavler over slektene Angell og Hammond.

Slekten Nissen fra Bov Sogn av Gunnar Brun Nissen og Harald Nissen.

Den Nordenfjeldske gran av slekten Blix fra Jemtland samlet av Thomas Norum.

Bidrag fra flere DIS-Norges medlemmer.

 

Jørn B. Skogø har samlet dette i  "Slekten Angell" , Trondheim, november 2000.

 

(I den er det også med inngifte og deres slekter.)

 

[Inger Hohler]

Probate records after the death of Christian Holst, husband of Abel Hamond https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090204320160
The probate records are dated 1735 and Abel Hamond was alive. A Sr. William Hamond is repeatedly mentioned in the records.

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

1 time siden, Anita Holck skrev:

 

In the testament 5. Febr. 171(4) after the grandfather of the children William Hammond in England (testament mentioned 14/7-1725) only 3 children are mentioned, Hanna Margrethe, Abel and William, I believe this means that Lorentz and Vibecke are dead before 1714. In the document 14/7-1725 only 2 children are mentioned Hanna Margrethe and William, does this mean that also Abel is dead in 1725?

 

 

 

 

Do you have a link to this testament? Or a picture?

[Inger Hohler]

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Do you have a link to this testament? Or a picture?

It's easy to lose track of the different documents. This is https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20080403670218 page136 right side, bottom, and the following page.

SAT, Nordmøre sorenskriveri, 2/2Ca/L0002: Pantebok nr. B, 1712-1731, s. 136

- the one I mentioned, addressing the content of Berit Knudsen's link.

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

5 minutter siden, Inger Hohler skrev:

It's easy to lose track of the different documents. This is https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20080403670218 page136 right side, bottom, and the following page.

SAT, Nordmøre sorenskriveri, 2/2Ca/L0002: Pantebok nr. B, 1712-1731, s. 136

- the one I mentioned, addressing the content of Berit Knudsen's link.

Sorry, Inger, yes...

One of my biggest problems is, that they all named William or Lorentz.... And that they had so many children, because TV in bedrooms wasn't invented yet.... 🙄

Endret Mars 7, 2021 av Medes Hammond-Norden

[Anita Holck]

 

39 minutter siden, Medes Hammond-Norden skrev:

William *1664 and his wife Abel Margrethe Angell had 6 children as far as I know:

Hanna Magrethe 1702-1734

Abel 1703-1703

Rebecca 1705-??

Abel Margrethe 1706-1787

Lorentz 1709-1716

William 1707-1787

 

 

William Hamon paa 4de Aar gammel (= not yet 4 years, born 1707)
Lorentz Hamond 3/4 Aar (born 1709)
Anna Margretha Hamon paa 9de Aar (= Hanna Margrethe) (= not yet 9 years, born 1702)
Abel Margrethe Hamon paa 7de Aar og (= not yet 7 years, born 1703/1704)
Rebecca Hamon paa 5te Aar (= not yet 5 years, born 1705/1706)

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

I do have another question for better understanding the skifteprotokoll:

 

It starts at page 646b (657)

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25082/657

 

The belonging is divided among the heirs on page 635b-654a (665, 667)

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25082/665

 

Do all the pages between also belong to this document? On some pages I can find his name, on others not. I'm irritated...

 

Also I wanted to ask, why at the very end Mathias Holst, Abel Margrethes second husband, signs the protokoll. Is the first document only the will and the rest is certification of the execution or the acceptance? I'm lost...

 

From where to where is which document?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Inger Hohler]

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I do have another question for better understanding the skifteprotokoll:

 

It starts at page 646b (657)

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25082/657

 

The belonging is divided among the heirs on page 635b-654a (665, 667)

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/25082/665

 

Do all the pages between also belong to this document? On some pages I can find his name, on others not. I'm irritated...

As far as I can tell, all those pages belong, and it continues! 653b-654a is the last double page. More than half way down 654a (right page) there is a new probate record, for Maria Clausdatter.

 

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Also I wanted to ask, why at the very end Mathias Holst, Abel Margrethes second husband, signs the protokoll. 

He was signing in the capacity of a guardian, I think. He was already engaged to be married to Abel Margrethe - they could not marry until the probate records had been set straight. He had offered to be the guardian of the children.

 

I have a feeling that the Herolds will only accept primary sources, and primary sources that can be strung together. The Brodal reference by Berit Knudsen is a secondary resource, but if the information found there is crucial, there it may be possible to confirm that the original document exists. Brodal says in the foreword of the book that the information comes from the church account books of Domkirken (the cathedral) and Vår Frues kirke (Church of Our Lady)
Unfortunately the link does not tell us which Willum Hammond paid for a license to get married in a private home. Unless it can be shown that the Willum Hammond mentioned is the right one, it might not be the right one. Thomas Hamon and his wife Sara also had a son Willum, this one christened July 21st 1708.  https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070920660673 

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Brodahl Joh. E. Kirkeregnskap for Domkirken og Vor Frue.

1730 Willum Hammonds vielse i huset. https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/efdf65f11c6222f79c629716589dc249?index=2#21

 

The same book is probably the source of the 'date for the second marriage' of Abel Margrethe Angell.
Mathias Holst, who married the widow Abel Margrethe Angell previously married to William Hamond paid to box for the the parish poor ('bøssen') in Vor Frues kirke  for a private wedding 09.03.1712 https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/efdf65f11c6222f79c629716589dc249?index=2#15

However, I find no mention of the wedding between Abel Margrethe Angell and Willum Hammond. This may indicate either that they were married in the church, or that the records are not complete, or that they were married elsewhere.

I do find a date for when the burial of William Hamond, husband of Abel Margrethe Angell, was paid for.
It is registered on the 10th of June 1710, so William Hamond must have died no later than this date, most likely at least a few days before, if payment happened promptly.
https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/2f8e2c4b35ec047029e649704f9800e0#87 Trøndersk personalhistorie. 1

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

Yes, Inger, the Herold asked for primary sources. And if I go through all these Williams and Lorentzes I understand, why the Herold is that strict. Like you said: as far as we don't know what's right, it's wrong...

In the last Email they asked for copies of church- or registerbooks for the two Williams (1664-1710 and 1707-1787) and Lorentz 1738-1808. Except for the three in my first post mentioned documents I found everything they wanted.

William *1707

William oo 1700 with Abel Margrethe

William + 1710

 

My ancestor passport goes back to Lorentz Hammond, *1738-1808, who was the son of the last William from above (1710-1787). If I can't find any primary sources, for example because a church was destroyed, then I have to prove, that primary sources are not available. I think, that the skifteprotokoll could be a secondary source, because the wife and the children fit to the pedigree. That's why I'm asking for the details.

Perhaps someone finds more hints or sources...

 

I wrote an Email to the Heraldist who helps me through all the Williams 😉 and he will read here as well. I hope, he'll find things we can rely on for the Herold.

 

How can I work with the links to the nationalbibliothek you sent? I found the bokks but I can't "use" them. 😕

 

 

Ok, the document is longer than I thought, but now I can put it in my file. Thanks! 🙂

 

 

 

[Anita Holck]

For å kunne åpne bøker på Nasjonalbiblioteket, bl.a. Brodahl, må Medes ha en norsk IP-adresse, det et derfor jeg la inn opplysningene som screenshot. Siden regnskapsbøkene ikke er avfotografert er dette det eneste vi har, men originalene må jo finnes i Riksarkivet eller et arkiv i Trondheim?

 

Jeg skjønner ikke helt dette opplegget heller, at man må ha et "ancestor pasport" og en "Heraldist" for å dokumentere og godkjenne en slektsrekke og at bare kirkebøker godtas, men ikke skifteprotokoller? En avfotografert skifteprotokoll eller tingbok er da ikke en "secondary source"?

[Medes Hammond-Norden]

I need the heraldist for the professionell contact to the Herold. The Deutsche Herold is a society which proves wether you are allowed to carry a coat of arms or not or to register a (new) coat of arms. 
 

We have a ring with a coat of arms but we didn’t know if it really belongs to our family. We would like to carry the coat of arms.  That’s why I started the genealogy. We asked the Herold and send documents and proves. 
Their answer was that we have to prove the connection from Lorentz to his father William and to his grandfather William. All other items are ok, also the ancestor passport. 
I can’t decide wether a source is primary or secondary and if it’s helpful and if the Herold finds it ok. 
 

Endret Mars 8, 2021 av Medes Hammond-Norden

[Inger Hohler]

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If I can't find any primary sources, for example because a church was destroyed, then I have to prove, that primary sources are not available.

That's the next step. What sort of proof do you require for this?
This is what Arkivet has to say on the matter: https://www.arkivverket.no/slektsgranskning/historikk-for-prestegjeld-og-sogn/prestegjeld-og-sogn-i-sor-trondelag

If you follow the links to the particular parishes, you will see a list of what exists. For Vor Frue the records start at 1732. For Domkirken the records properly start at 1729, while there exist some records from 1679.

Source of death of William Hamond, presumed son of William Hamond of Ufford.
In your case, there is primary source evidence that William Hamond and his wife were living in Trondheim: the probate record from 1710. We know he did not live in the parish of Domkirken, because none of his children were christened there, even if he, according to primary sources frequently appeared as a sponsor to other christenings. 
There is primary source evidence that William Hamond was sponsor for a christening in about mid-1709.

There is a secondary source (Brodal's transcription of the church accounts) which records the payment for the burial of William Hamond in the parish of Vor Frue in 1710. This was the only other town parish in Trondheim at the time, except for Domkirken. Presumably the primary source document still exists in the National Archives, but has not been digitalized. 

I believe this would count as evidence that it is impossible to find the church records for his actual burial, but that the year of his death can be inferred from primary sources, and probably also the month from a secondary source:
As far as I know, the services of the church were normally paid for before they were enacted, so the date for payment in Brodal's book should indicate month.

It was in everyone's interest that the probate records were completed as soon as possible, so the widow could marry again. She was still young enough to have children at short intervals, and would not lack for suitors. After a year she could marry again, but only if the estate had been divided between her and the children. It took about two years, and by that time the widow was already engaged to be married, according to the finishing date in the probate record.

Evidence for relationship between William Hamond dead 1710, and William Hamond (let's call him 'the youngest') lived long enough to beget children

I do not believe the introduction in 1707, Domkirken, top right, refers to the introduction of William Hamond's wife after the birth of William 'the youngest'.
If you look at the bottom of the left page, the christening of Sophia, there are three sponsors listed, and a date for the baptism but no date for the introduction of Sophia's mother. The top right page contains an introduction date, but that would be for Sophia's mother, not William Hamond's wife, and I believe William Hamond and Lorentz Angel Meckleren were also sponsors at the christening. 5 sponsors were nothing out of the ordinary.

 

No relevant parish records exist from  Vor Frue for the appropriate time frame, so the birth of William Hamond 'the youngest' would not be recorded in a primary source that we know of. (Family bibles with births inscribed generally count as primary sources.)

It is not likely that the christening would be mentioned in the church accounts, as christenings were part of a normal service, and no special pomp and circumstance was common. For that reason we would not expect to find his christening recorded in Brodal's transcription of the church accounts.

 

There is a primary source that William Hamond dead 1710 was the father of William Hamond 'the youngest' in they eyes of the law - the probate records of 1710.
There is secondary source evidence for the age of William Hamond's son William Hamond (between 3 and 4 years old), in the probate record from 1710.
There is primary source evidence that William Hamond was married to Abel Margrethe Angel in the eyes of the law at the time of his death, in the probate record from 1710. There is primary source evidence that the parish clergy in Domkirken regarded the couple as married by 1702.

Unless William Hamond dead 1710 fathered William Hamond 'the youngest' out of wedlock, and had him officially recognized, it can be inferred that Abel Margrethe Angel was mother of William Hamond 'the youngest'.

We don't know that William Hamond had any out-of-wedlock children, nor that he legally recognized any as such. Proving that he didn't is not practical. However:

The official record of Abel Margrethe Angel refers to William Hamond 'the youngest' as 'her dear child' in the 'testament' (will) of Abel Margrethe Hamond of 1725. If he was born out of wedlock he would have no rights to inherit from her. This primary source tells us Abel Margrethe Angel signed a legal document attesting William Hamond 'the youngest' was her son, and William Hamond's, the 14/7-1725. Obviously he was so in the eyes of the law, because he did inherit property from his mother.

 

This primary source is a also secondary source to the fact that William Hamond (let's call him 'the elder'), father of William Hamond had left William Hamond 'the youngest' and two of his sisters a considerable sum of money in Pound Sterling.

We don't know if the primary source, the will or probate records of William Hamond 'the elder' still exists. It does it looks as if this information will be vital to proving your claim, even if the information is unlikely to be invented by Abel Margrethe Angel.

 

--- 

I believe the next step ought to be establishing the link between William Hamond 'the youngest' and Lorentz with the best evidence possible.
As for the wedding between Abel Margrethe Angel and William Hammond, there may exist a record for the permission to marry in a private home instead of the church. If so it might be found among the 'Skapsaker'. Finding the information here will take dedication, even if it exists.
If they did not apply for this permission, it is plausible that the marriage is not mentioned in Brodal's transcript of the church accounts, as no payment would have been required for the church coffer. We have already established that the parish records of Vor Frue, where they most likely lived at the time, have not survived for the relevant time period. 

 

---
 

I thought I would send you some more information about Brodal as a secondary source. Here's the relevant part of the the foreword for Brodal's books about the church accounts of the Trondheim cathedral and the  accounts from the Church of Our Lady. Johan Ernst Brodal wrote those books as a dedication to the National Archivar Christian Brinch Koren, for Koren's 70th birthday. Johan Ernst Brodal was a theology student who never finished the practical part of service required to be ordained. He went on to become a teacher and headmaster, but his passion must have been history, because he wrote several books relating to personal history in and around Trondheim. His work is of sufficient high quality that much of it resides in the State Archives.

What it says is (bearing in mind that I may not know the most appropriate English words, and that I am being fairly free with the translation. The original is written in a rather archaic Norwegian):
"The ecclesiastical records in Trondheim start in the 18th century, for the Cathedral (Domkirken) from 1729, and for the parish of Our Lady (Vor Frue) from 1732. However, in the account books for those parishes - the first starting from 1679 and the second from 1653 - there are fairly good records of all the ecclesiastical acts that brought the church an income. These records are at their most accurate with respects to burials. At the time, everyone had to be buried, either inside the walls of the church or outside, more sporadically the church coffers were added to on the occasion of weddings and christenings, when the festivity was heightened by added pomp and circumstance: bell ringing, wax candles on the altar etc. The idea behind collecting all this material in a book is to piece together an ecclesiastical record for both parishes, however incomplete, older than the existing ones.

 

A better understanding of their use is required. The dates recorded cannot be used as dates for the act recorded, as they represent the date of the payment, not necessarily the act itself, even if they may have coincided. Sometimes payments were made as installments. "

 

[Inger Hohler]

I found this when looking for something else: one William Hamond becoming a citizen of Trondheim.

Again it is from one of Brodal's transcriptions, which you cannot read, so I'll post an image if you decide you need it. https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/9de5c68da90826335a68a52282dc4163?index=4#37 Personalhistoriske magistratsattester
William Hamond had asked for a confirmation that he was a citizen of Trondheim, and for how long he had been so.

He was issued a document saying that he had been a citizen of Trondheim since July 16th 1694, but that he had resided in Trondheim since May 1679. Both in war and in peace he had had the grace of the King, and the way I understand the document it also confirms that he has paid his taxes. The document was signed Jan 08.1695.

 

A new document with more or less the same content is issued for a Willum Hamond in June 1697, who had been residing in Trondheim since May 1679. But here the date December 22.1690 for becoming a citizen.  https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/9de5c68da90826335a68a52282dc4163?index=4#45

I don't know yet if both refer to 'your' William Hamond, and one contains an error, or if any of them is 'your' William.

However, yet another book by Brodal, https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/4b4cfad5ff1e8cec5a455ba2031dd5ee?index=12#61 Trondhjems guldsmeder. 1 : Barokken

confirms that a William Hamond owned a town house in Dronningens gate, in the parish of Vor Frue, from 1700. This town house had previously belonged to a goldsmith. Finding the primary document would help strengthen  the case that William Hamond and his family lived in the parish of Vor Frue, where church records of neither engagements nor marriage, nor baptisms have survived. If you need it.

[Inger Hohler]

Reading more Brodal has paid off, at least in one sense. In his book about goldsmiths in Trondheim, Baroque period, we learn that when William Hamond was carried to his grave in 1710, the matter became food for the court, because the wrong carriers had been employed! It might be possible to find a date for the burial in a contemporary source after all.  https://www.nb.no/nbsok/nb/4b4cfad5ff1e8cec5a455ba2031dd5ee?index=12#181