Andreas Hagbart Amundsen Bokkeplads / Havnedalen b. 22 Jul 1859 - Hoffgårdsplass, Lurdalen, Eiker in Buskerud, Norway

[Al Möen]

Andreas Hagbart Amundsen Bokkeplads / Havnedalen b. 22 Jul 1859 - Hoffgårdsplass, Lurdalen, Eiker in Buskerud, Norway

 

I am attempting a novel approach to finding a common Patrilineal ancestor with a living distant male relative who has also obtained the Big Y-700 Y-Chromosome analysis carried out by 'Family Tree DNA'.

 

Could you please trace the patrilineal ancestry of 'Andreas Hagbart Amundsen Bokkeplads / Havnedalen b. 22 Jul 1859 - Hoffgårdsplass, Lurdalen, Eiker in Buskerud, Norway' as far back as possible?

 

I have traced my direct Patrilineal ancestry back to Sjur Loftsgården, of Loftsgården farm in Åsbø or Åsbøgrenda, Nore Parish, Buskerud, born circa 1575.

 

I am hopeful that we will have a common Patrilineal ancestor in the archived records, but even if we don't that will also be useful information, because that would define the limits of our Y-Chromosome similarity.

 

Thank you, in advance.  I hope you agree that this is a fascinating novel approach to DNA Genealogical research.

[Carl Nilsen]

Just to get the ball rolling:

Birth, no 299:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1077/179

 

Parents' marriage, no 43. Father from Modum, mother from Kongsberg:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1078/38

 

Father Amund's birth, no 47. His parents, Helge Knudsen Jahr and Anne Amundsdatter:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1154/52

 

Helge and Anne's marriage in 1812:
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/327/pv00000002539955

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8496/401 (2nd from top, right page)

 

Helge Knudsen Jahr dies in 1824, his age is given as 38 years:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8500/128

[Anton Hagelee]

Nice of Carl to get  you started. Unfortunately the wedding record does not give the age of the bride and groom or the name of their fathers. Sometime it does some time it does not. However the farm name that seems to be attached to them is Jaer. Or a place under Jaer also spelled Jahr or Jahl. That might give a hint to go a step further. 

 

In the birth record for their first child Christian the farm is Jaereje. Which also means farm under Jaer. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061220660405

 

I have not found a connection between Helge Knudsen and the Jaer farm. But this might be Anne Amundsen in the 1801 Census living on the Jaer farm. I know it is the male Helge's ancestry that you need but that might be a tough one. 

 

Father is Amund Amundsen and mother is Oline Tostensdatter. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058274002867

 

 

Endret Desember 16, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Carl Nilsen]

There was a reason why I stopped with Helge 🙂

 

I didn't look too close, but I feel there's a strong indication that he was from outside of Modum. No Helge Knudsen in FT1801 for Modum, and as far as I can tell noone by that name/age (ie born ~1786) confirmed in Modum. I think the closest candidate geographically/age-wise in FT1801 is this one:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01058280000905

[Al Möen]

Thank you, Carl and Anton for your help.  Is there a published history for these farms?

 

 

[Carl Nilsen]

The history of Jar, the farm under which Helge and Anne had a homestead/"husmannsplass", is in Modums Historie V (page 37):

https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2017112926019?page=41

 

No mention here of neither Helge nor his potential parents' in law that Anton linked to in FT1801. (The section on "husmenn" is pretty sparse, though.) I could not find Helge mentioned elsewhere in the other books in the Modums Historie-series.

Endret Desember 17, 2021 av Carl Nilsen

[Anton Hagelee]

A real tough one. Looking at the list of baptisms in Flesburg, Buskerud around 1789, I only found one candidate. A Helge born in 1790 to a Ambjor Helgesdatter. In the 1801 Census posted by Carl the mother is listed as Kari Helgesdatter. I tend to think that the Helge  listed in the 1801 Census and the Helge listed in the baptism are the same person in spite of the difference in the first name of the mother. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070315640504

 

Date is Fer 2 Pent, which I think is 24 May in 1790

 

 

 

 

Endret Desember 17, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Carl Nilsen]

2 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

A real tough one. Looking at the list of baptisms in Flesburg, Buskerud around 1789, I only found one candidate. Helge born in 1789 to a Ambjor Helgesdatter. In the 1801 Census posted by Carl the mother is listed as Kari Helgesdatter. I tend to think that the Helge  listed in the 1801 Census and the Helge listed in the baptism are the same person in spite of the difference in the first name of the mother. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070315640504

 

 

 

Unfortunately his (alleged) father is called Povel Madsen, not Knud.

[Anton Hagelee]

1 minute ago, Carl Nilsen said:

Unfortunately his (alleged) father is called Povel Madsen, not Knud.

 

Ah yes I did not read down the parish record far enough.

[Anton Hagelee]

Looking through the confirmation list for Modum.  I did find a Helge Knutsen (farm name difficult to read). Right hand page four from the bottom.

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061220660277

 

 

Endret Desember 18, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Candidate from 1786 in Flesberg. Father is Knud Thoresen. Date is 6 p Trini 23 July 1786 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070315640438

 

Not a candiate. He died in 1789. 

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8562/123

 

Here is Knud Toresen in the 1801 Census. has a second son named Helge born about 1794.

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058280001206

 

 

 

Endret Desember 18, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Dag Thorsdalen]

Helge is a tricky name. Al, as I have told you before, several Norwegian names have different pronunciation and spellings dependent on where in Norway you are. And Helge is among them, Not very far to the northwest of Modum this name at the time rather would have been spelled Hølje, Hølie, Holge, Holgie, Holje, Holie and so on. Thus, you must take into consideration those other spellings.

 

4 timer siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Looking through the confirmation list for Modum.  I did find a Helge Knutsen (farm name difficult to read). Right hand page four from the bottom.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061220660277

 

The farm name is Lofthuus, modern spelling Lofthus.

 

4 timer siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Here is Knud Toresen in the 1801 Census. has a second son named Helge born about 1794.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058280001206

 

This candidate could be excluded. The local history book, Flesbergboka VII p. 262, writes about his future life. He married and stayed in Flesberg.

 

20 timer siden, Carl Nilsen skrev:

I didn't look too close, but I feel there's a strong indication that he was from outside of Modum. No Helge Knudsen in FT1801 for Modum, and as far as I can tell noone by that name/age (ie born ~1786) confirmed in Modum. I think the closest candidate geographically/age-wise in FT1801 is this one:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01058280000905

 

And this one died later in 1801, according to Flesbergboka I p. 457.

 

[Anton Hagelee]

10 hours ago, Dag Thorsdalen said:

The farm name is Lofthuus, modern spelling Lofthus.

 

Probably grasping at straws now, but the only Knud found of interest in looking for Knud and Lofthaus is Knud Arnesen found on Haugen Plans under Lofthus in the 1801 Census. His birth year is given as about 1861 so he is probably old enough to be a kandidate.  Helge in the confirmation is listed as age 19 as I read it, giving him a birth year of around 1786. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058280002295

 

 

Endret Desember 18, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Dag Thorsdalen]

There are many Lofthus Farms around Norway, and this Lofthus is another farm than Lofthus, Modum. Anton, the man you linked to is actually my ancestor. He was born i 1762 and had no son called Helge or similar.

 

Lofthus, Modum is here: 0122 Lofthuus - 001 - Census districts summary - 1801 census for 0623P Modum - The Digital Archive (digitalarkivet.no) 

 

My guess is that Helge was a servant at Lofthus at the time of his confirmation.

 

[Al Möen]

Thank you all for your contributions.  Is it possible to do a mini-family tree?  I could do with a visual representation.  Unfortunately, I cannot work out what conclusions there are, if any.

[Anton Hagelee]

52 minutes ago, Al Möen said:

Thank you all for your contributions.  Is it possible to do a mini-family tree?  I could do with a visual representation.  Unfortunately, I cannot work out what conclusions there are, if any.

 

Here is a start. You can use this info to build a tree.

 

Andreas Hagbart

in the Norway, Births and Christenings, 1648-1903

Name:Andreas Hagbart

Gender:Male

Christening Age:0

Birth Date:22 Jul 1859

Christening Date:18 Sep 1859

Christening Place:Eiker, Buskerud, Norway

Father:Amund Helgesen

Mother:Ane Kirstine Einarsdr

 

Amund Helgesen

in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

Name:Amund Helgesen

Gender:Male

Age:36

Birth Date:1822

Marriage Date:27 Jul 1858

Marriage Place:Eiker, Buskerud, Norway

Father:Helge Knudsen

Spouse:Ane Kirstine Einarsdr

FHL Film Number:278183

Reference ID:2:QTQD58

 

Ane Kirstine Einarsdr

in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

Name:Ane Kirstine Einarsdr[Ane Kirstine Olsen]

Gender:Female

Age:47

Birth Date:1811

Marriage Date:27 Jul 1858

Marriage Place:Eiker, Buskerud, Norway

Father:Einar Olsen

Spouse:Amund Helgesen

FHL Film Number:278183

Reference ID:2:QTQD58

 

Anne Kirstine Einarsdr

in the Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927

Name:Anne Kirstine Einarsdr[Anne Kirstine Olsen]

Gender:Female

Birth Date:1811

Birth Place:Kongsberg, Nor

Father:Einar Olsen

FHL Film Number:1282526

 

I have not found the original baptism record for Anne Kristine Einarsdatter? So right now her mother is unkown.

 

 

 

 

Endret Desember 26, 2021 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

[Al Möen]

That's great.  Thank you.

[Al Möen]

So, Helge, Hølje, Hølie, Holge, Holgie, Holje, Holie, etcetera Knudsen's son, Amund was born in 1822.  I can see now why the 1801 census was so important in the search for Helge's birth and ancestry.

 

My Y-Chromosome Terminal Haplotype is R-YP1390.  My direct Patrilineal ancestor crossed over into Southern Norway or Southern Sweden about 2,000 years ago.  All of my known male relatives, descended from this common Patrilineal ancestor, can trace their Patrilineal ancestry back to this region.  The Holy Grail for me would be to obtain matching Y-Chromosome information from grave archaeology, covering the period 750 AD to 1250 AD.  I suppose it is difficult or impossible to get permission to do research on burials in Christian church yards.

Endret Desember 27, 2021 av Al Möen
correct punctuation