Thoron and Torunn in same tree. Reference "Sannsynlighet for middelalderpåstand Odd Roar Aalborg replied to John Olav Oldertrøen's topic" nov 2019

[Bruce Solberg]

    Need a little help! 

   

I have been researching the ancestors of Gaute Unge Gautessons wife,  NN Sigurdsdatter/Torunnsdtr 1238 and have run into some issues in published trees as applied to mine . 

 

   My original tree is based upon information from Henrik Lunde's "Some old Norse Families"  which pairs Torunn Unknown  1220  with Sigurd Håkonsen,  Lendemann Tore Greipsson ,  and finally  Erland on Husby.      Torunns children are NN Sigurdsdatter 1238,   and Torald Torunnsdatter Berg I Støvrelvdal .   

 

  The discussion referenced in the title ,   cites the same letters and sources as does Henrik Lunde about Torunn,   as does the family tree of the Sherpe/Østrem  family publications  (available at Naeseth Norwegian American Library Madison Wi).      I have been fairly confident that this was correct, and    at a minimum,  it defines the relationship of Gauate Unge's wife as a grandchild of Håkon IV Håkonsson,  as well as Torald Torunnsdatter being a grandchild.   Other data from the Foundation for Medevial Genealogy (FMG) states that Sigurd had one illegitimate child, unknown mother.     A  daughter named Margaret was also a Frille child of Håkon in FMG,  but we find no mention Of a Thoron I have been able to find.. 

 

   I have other tree connections to Håkon IV,   through daughter  Cecelia, and Magnus Lagabøter,  and a third one that I am questioning,  with a Daughter Named Thoron, arrived at from a different Great Great Grandparent via the Kane family lineage.      

 

 Thoron is  married to Toralde Gunnarsen Hvite Gulsvik of the Kane family, and this Håkon daughter is carried in My Heritage, Geni,   Family Tree, Wiki Tree,  and Ancestry,  with over 500 records in My Heritage alone, and other public trees  with varying mothers of Frille Kanga or Margaret Skulledottir,  and some with Unknown mother, but as a daughter of Håkon IV.       

 

 Thoron and Toralde Gulsvik   Son is Toralde I Toraldeson Hvit Kane Berg,  born 1245,   Berg Elvedals Sogn.      A couple screen shots below show portions of my trees.    

 

       It would seem to me that either one or both of the Sigurd Håkonson tree or the Kane tree are in error

        Sigurd tree                                                                                                                        Kane Tree 

       Jorunn  1220 + (Sigurd H, Tore G. Erland H)                                                                 Joran Håkonsdatter 1222 +(Toralde Gunnarsen Hvite Gulsvik 1220)

 

      NN Jorunnsdatter,   1238  

 

     Tarald Jorunnsson Berg In Stor Elvedal  date unknown                                                         Toralde I Toraldeson Hvit Kane Berg,  Berg Elvedal Sogn  born 1245,

       

 To me,  it seems that we are talking about the same person for Tarald, vs Toralde,   and that  Jorunn may also be Joran?     Some options could be    

       

 

1.      Joran had a child with Tore G before marrying Toralde Gunnerson and NN Jorunnsdatter could be that child of Joran before marriage?    Date of 1238 is before the first of Joran/Toralde child is born 1240.     

2.      Sigurd had a child with another named jorunn , that is NN jorunnsdatter,  and Joran had a son Toralde I Toraldeson Berg.

3.    Sigurd had a child with unknown,  and Gaute Unge's wife  name is NN Sigurddaughter

4.    If Joran/Jorunn is a frilledaughter of Håkon,  it would explain the use of Jorunnsson for Tarald/Toralde,  as Toralde Gunnarssons father is mentioned as 'Kongsfrend", so Joran would be of higher status.   

5.  Bothe tarald and toralde claim to be on Berg Elvedal at the same time.  one would be jorunnsson,  the other is a son of Joran and seem to me to be the same person.    

 

    I would appreciate any input or advice on sources for Joran.....or other councel.     

 

Many thanks in advance....Bruce Solberg 

Thoron vs Torunn.docx

  

 

 

 

        

[Odd Roar Aalborg]

Sorry for some late reaction:

 

A link to the mentioned topic In the theme's heading:

 https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/239903-sannsynlighet-for-middelalderp%C3%A5stand/?tab=comments#comment-2049731

 

It had been very well if we could figure this out, but I am unfortunately no expert in medieval genealogy. The theme is very interesting, so I hope someone else may contribute more knowledge here. I have two assumed lineages from Håkon 5. Magnusson and one more from Håkon 4. Håkonsson . These should be quite secure lines, but assumes that I have identified one of my distant ancestors correctly.  In addition I have one line to the Tarald genus in Stor-Elvdal that might be assumed (but not is documented!) to be descended from Tarald Torunnsson in the Middle Ages, supposed to possibly be the son of Erland Husby in the county of Østfold (now a part of Viken).

 

I do not think that my medieval knowledge is sufficient so I should determine anything concerning this. But it seems a bit odd if a woman first is married twice in Sunnhordland in Western Norway and thereafter in Østfold in Eastern Norway in a century where these are very distant to each other in travel time. But sometimes they could possibly sail the long stretch around the coast during a few days if the wind was right.

 

Here is an assessment in Norwegian of one of the sources mentioned: https://www.genealogi.no/wiki/index.php/Some_old_norse_families_(bok) . The criticism of "Some Old Norse Families" is quite strong, and is performed by a very prominent person in Norwegian genealogy.

[Bruce Solberg]

4 hours ago, Odd Roar Aalborg said:

Sorry for some late reaction:

 

A link to the mentioned topic In the theme's heading:

 https://forum.arkivverket.no/topic/239903-sannsynlighet-for-middelalderp%C3%A5stand/?tab=comments#comment-2049731

 

It had been very well if we could figure this out, but I am unfortunately no expert in medieval genealogy. The theme is very interesting, so I hope someone else may contribute more knowledge here. I have two assumed lineages from Håkon 5. Magnusson and one more from Håkon 4. Håkonsson . These should be quite secure lines, but assumes that I have identified one of my distant ancestors correctly.  In addition I have one line to the Tarald genus in Stor-Elvdal that might be assumed (but not is documented!) to be descended from Tarald Torunnsson in the Middle Ages, supposed to possibly be the son of Erland Husby in the county of Østfold (now a part of Viken).

 

I do not think that my medieval knowledge is sufficient so I should determine anything concerning this. But it seems a bit odd if a woman first is married twice in Sunnhordland in Western Norway and thereafter in Østfold in Eastern Norway in a century where these are very distant to each other in travel time. But sometimes they could possibly sail the long stretch around the coast during a few days if the wind was right.

 

Here is an assessment in Norwegian of one of the sources mentioned: https://www.genealogi.no/wiki/index.php/Some_old_norse_families_(bok) . The criticism of "Some Old Norse Families" is quite strong, and is performed by a very prominent person in Norwegian genealogy.

 

 

 

 

 

        Odd Roar:  

 

   Many  thanks for the input,  and i hope that  others can  input and  correct connections ,     and that  corrections  can be made with referenced material on this topic ( if it exists).    I still need to think about where to truncate the Torunn-toron line.    

 

     

     Thanks much  for the critique on Lunde.   

 

  One of the first documents on genealogy I read was from Lars Løberg titled "do Norwegian Kings belong in your family tree"  .     After reading it,  the unfortunate answer was yes,  as i ran into them with the "collision" of trees of my 5th gen ancestors, and as I recall,  4 out of 5 that he listed.  I have used an unconventional method in creating the tree, first using  4 published trees or books, 1970-2001 by .    I then  built missing  tree portions  using DNA matched records from My Heritage,  and used a record only if I had two or more strongly matched  DNA records that were the same,  then try to  verify them with sourced material unless it was listed in the record. I also  used several ouside genealogy  sources vs just  My Heritage ,

      My goal was to solve  the many  endogamy problems and the "collision of trees Duplicates"  that  I ran into in Troms,  Mo i Rana, Haukland, rogaland, adger  and Innvik/strynn/Helset/Bodal/Sogn, and also to determine why I had  so many Swedish DNA matches (1900 vs 7000 for Norway )  when all my great grandperents are known  and documented by others as  coming to US  from Norway from   1850 to 1900 to Minnesota and North Dakota.   

 

   I had been using Henrik  as a good secondary  resource,  and now must re-question some records using Løbergs critique input.     

 

Thanks for the informative answer which i hope leads to others with information to contribute.     

 

Bruce Solberg

Green Bay Wisconsin 

 

 

                

[Lars Løberg II]

Dear Mr. Solberg,

I am sorry to inform you that you have already wasted a lot of time and resources on a fruitless project here, apparently led astray by some of the numerous errors and mistakes in Henrik Lunde's books. Your chart starts with "Knight Eirik Sigurdsson Galtung" and his brother "Riksråd Toralde "Smørhatt" Sigurdson" - the first one never mentioned alive in contemporary sources, the latter seemingly too young to fit in here, which also goes for his sister Ingeborg Sigurdsdotter, not mentioned in your charts.

 

Eirik Galtung must have existed, linking the Hatteberg descendants to the Mel family. To understand the connections here, the most recent scientific approach is Jo Rune Ugulen's article "Kring ætta på Ornes og Mel i mellomalderen, samt noko om Rane Jonssons etterkomarar og slekta Hjerne (Hjärne)" in NST vol  XXXIX p 235-316. According to Ugulen, Gaut unge was survived by widow Katarina Ivarsdotter, who left no issue. Gaut's assumed sons Tore and Sigurd must therefore be born before his marriage to Katarina. Ugulen quotes leading genealogist Henning Sollied in stating that Gaut's first wife most likely was a daughter of nobleman Tore Greipson, mentioned 1257, very unlike the "NN Sigurdsdatter Torgunnsdatter" in your chart. There is no reason whatsover to assume that the mother of Gaut's two sons could have been  a granddaughter of King Håkon IV.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Solberg]

   Thank you very much Lars!  It simplifies my task greatly.       My interest is in getting an accurate tree for my children....regardless how many generations it goes, as they have been using it for grandchildrens names.     (I even have one named Lars)   .     Some trees  only go 5 or 6 generations . 

 

 So far the eraser has been my best tool,  and as i find things that do not add up....I question them.    It is unfortunate that as one of the trees i chose as a base to import from  , was from a distant relative which was based upon  the Lunde book.     🤔  

 

   

     Do  you know if  there any good resource for leiel in Haukland?    This is another one i have issues with with posted connections to his parents.   Best resource I have found is Eivinds.net  gardsproject.   

 

 

   Thanks much for your time and counsel.     Bruce  

[Odd Roar Aalborg]

Here is a link regarding the latest question: https://eivinds.net/11-haukland/.

 

But this should perhaps be featured in a separate topic, since the headline here gets a little deceptive.

Endret Januar 4, 2022 av Odd Roar Aalborg

[Bruce Solberg]

  Odd Roar:  i agree that it should not be covered here.   Here is a post from March on that topic.    I received a lot of looks but no new information.     Perhaps if you reply to this  link,  others might start looking again,   and input any new information for this area.    

 

          Charlie Eivind's web page has been updated since then  and is a great resource...     

[Odd Roar Aalborg]

Unfortunately I have no ancestors in that part of Norway, so I do not know the personal environment there very well. Surely it should be some others it concerns, but they may possibly not be in activity here.

[Bruce Solberg]

Thanks for you help on this one,  it has been valuable to me  ....it is ended.    Bruce