Help required to identify a residence in Stavanger

[Ian Perry]

Jeg ønsker å identifisere det nøyaktige huset eller bygningen som mine tippoldeforeldre bodde i da de bodde i Stavanger. Folketellingene fra 1865 og 1875 gir opplysninger om hvor de bodde, men jeg kan ikke se hvilket husnummer de hadde i Hetlandsgata.

 

Takk for at du kan hjelpe meg med å identifisere boligen deres.

 

Med vennlig hilsen Ian

 

I would like to identify the exact house or building that my great great grandparents lived in when they were living in Stavanger. The 1865 and 1875 census records give their residence details but I can’t see what their house number is in Hetlandsgata.

 

Thank you for helping me identify their residence.

 

Best regards, Ian

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/pf01038196010968
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ft20090803620410

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/pf01052234012663
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ft20110119760857

 

[Roy-Petter Askim]

See link to property register. House 789 = Hetlandsgaten 25. The house stood in the middle of Waisenhusgaten and blocked it. Bought by the town for demolition in 1923 to open up the street.

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23601/69

 

Stavangeren, onsdag 12. desember 1923

 

 

Endret Januar 31, 2023 av Roy-Petter Askim

[Ian Perry]

 

Thank you Roy-Petter, I appreciate your help very much.

 

May I ask please if I have found the house location correctly on the map?

 

My great great grandparents moved to Stavanger in the early 1820s. Would there be any records of where they lived between 1820-1865?

 

[Roy-Petter Askim]

The location is correct and stretched almost to the opposite side of Waisenhusgaten judging from todays property register map. I have searched papers etc. and found a historic paper listing fire insurance taxation in Stavanger.

Ætt og heim : lokalhistorisk årbok for Rogaland. 1951

 

30.10.1846 they had a fire insurance taxation of house 789, 320 spd worth. (Not listed under Stavanger city, but in the surrounding area, (by/amt) the taxation is not to be found digitalised in DA.)

John is also listed as owner in 1844 prop. reg. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23598/33  but I was unable to find information on when he purchased the house or previous adress. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian Perry]

 

Thank you again Roy-Petter, very kind of you sir to look for this information for me. This is important family information and I appreciate your time and effort to help me.

FYI,

Jonas Johnsen Fuglestad was the son born 1821

John Johannesen Fuglestad was his father who we think moved to Stavanger from Varhaug after his marriage in 1823

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Yes, I found your relatives in your tree on familysearch. Came across an interesting picture from 1935 in a book from old Stavanger. The text explains that in front of the house on the right there was a small house demolished to give room for the street. Hetlandsgata is the narrow street between the houses, and Vaisenhusgata left to right in front. Gives you an impression of where they lived some years earlier.

[Ian Perry]

This is amazing Roy-Petter. I can’t thank you enough for taking the trouble to find this photo for me.

 

The house I have arrowed in the screenshot below looks like it may be the house in the old book photo on the left with the black door. The house seems to be in alignment in both photos with the tall grey building behind it which is in the centre of the screenshot. Do you agree?

 

https://goo.gl/maps/YgFGBkRBYCqf9S2k7

 

Does this mean that the house in the old book photo in the centre is my great great grandparents house that was demolished? Or have I got that wrong?

[Roy-Petter Askim]

The old photo is taken 10 years after he demolition of your family house who was located in front of the house on the right which you only can see the corner of. But later Hetlandsveien was also expanded and the house in the middle of the old photo has also been demolished. On your picture it looks like Vaisenhusgata runs up the hill but in fact it runs  left to righ. 

[Ian Perry]

Oh OK, that's clear. I can't see a front door on that house on the right. So when you say "in front of the house on the right" do you mean where the left arrow is pointing to or the right arrow? (when I visit next year with my daughter I would like to point to the exact spot to her).

 

 

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Sorry, bad choice of words from me. I meant the right arrow. Located in the middle of Vaisenhusgata.

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Found a drawing made of your familys house from the days they demolished it. Interesting to finally get an impression of how the house looked like! The text explains that the house opposite Hetlandsgaten also will be demolished, and a women who lived in your familyhouse (census 1900) called "gold-Trine" chased the kids away from her door-steps. The last owner was Ramsland, hence the name Ramslandshus.

 

Stavangeren, lørdag 19. januar 1924

 

 

[Ian Perry]

This is incredible. My family are all really enjoying these snippets you have posted of the old family house. I really can’t thank you enough.

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Some more info on the property:

Property book with reference to the protocols
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23610/183
1) Jonas bought some land from the church 08.04.1875.
2) Tanner Peder Figvedts widow confirms that John previously bought the plot. No date of sale, registered 22.07.1880. That explains why I could not find the purchase since it is not registered until 1880. Text suggests John built the house. Peder born 1806 came to Stavanger and obtained permission to trade 1835, indicates that John lived somewhere else from 1823 to 1830-1846 when the first fire assessment is mentioned.
3) Repaid 620 kr. Borrowed 680 kr. 14.05.1890
4) Measured the plot 1917 and Stavanger city bought 1924
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23521/275
From the church 17m2  (43 alen2,  1 m2 =2,54 alen2) behind house 789 for 7 spd 60 shilling. Metions rental agrement 05.11.1849.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23522/453
From Tanner Peder Figvedts widow 161 ¤ (63m2).
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23525/513
Bank loan 620 kr. 12.04.1886 repaid 14.05.1890, new loan 680 kr. Jansens legat (foundation).
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23560/266
Sale to the city 1924. Jonas (1821-1895(1897 in the register) was still registered owner, his widow "gold-Trine" (Kathrine) died 08.05.1902 Census 1900 shows that Jonas widow lived on one room and kitchen in the attic, a couple with daughter rented ground-floor 2 room and kitchen. Last owner, Ramsland’s executor approved the sale. The plot was 95,2 m2. Running 9 meter wide towards Hetlandsgaten, 18,4 meters alongside no. 27.
Fire assessments, description of the house.
Branntakstprotokoll nr. 5, 1856-1868			https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88194/53
Insurance assessment 11. August 1856. 360 spd. (Next is easier to read for me, seems very similar.)
Branntakstprotokoll nr. 6, 1868-1869			https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88195/212
Insurance assessment 11. Aug. 1868. 380 spd.
789 at Hetlandsgaten own by John Fuglestad and son Jonas Johnsen. The building was assessed under same number as the assessment 11. august 1856 amounted to 360 spd. It is virtually un- changed and consists of:  a single floor wooden house covered with panel, painted and tiled roof residential house, 11 "alen" long , 11 "alen" wide and 4,5 "alen" high. (6,9m *6,9m=48 m2 and 2,8 m high wall measured outside to the roof). (Norwegian "alen" = cubit, but in Norway 2 feet= 0,6275m long) Have cellar under the whole house of concrete/brick, divided in two rooms whereof one with fireplace. On the main floor 2 ?? rooms, where off one painted and "betrukket" (Wallpaper?), ??? kitchen with fire place, and 2 pantries (cabinets for food) of wood. ??. Hall, on the attic 3 separate  rooms where off one with fire place. It has 1 two-storey and 2 one storey chimneys, 1 six and 1 five storey tiled stove.12,5 window sections (as in 6 double windows+1 single), assessed value----380 spd. Included 10 spd for the foundation and 14 spd for the tiled stove. Three hundred and eighty spesidaler. The building close to the next etc.... The owner present etc....
Branntakstprotokoll nr. 9, 1880-1881			https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88198/196
Insurance assessment 01. Marts 1881
789 at Hetlandsgaten own by Jonas Fuglestad. The building was assessed under same number as the assessment 17. September 1868 amounted to 380 spd. The old assessment was quoted. It's been improved on the rooms from top to bottom. Mounted new windows and so on. It now consists of: : a single floor wooden house covered with panel, painted and tiled roof residential house, 11 "alen" long, 11 "alen" wide and 4,5 "alen high". (6,9m *6,9m=48 m2 and 2,8 m high wall measured outside to the roof). (Norwegian "alen" = cubit, but in Norway 2 feet= 0,6275m long) Have cellar under the whole house of concrete/brick, divided in two rooms whereof one with fireplace. On the main floor 2 painted and "betrukne»(wallpaper?) rooms whereof one with paneled ????, painted kitchen with fire place, and 1 paneled rom. also painted Hall, on the attic 1 painted and "betrukket" ....room, 3 pitched roof rooms with panel whereof 2 betrukne painted kitchen, with fire place and painted hall. It has 1 two twostorey chimney, 1 seven, 1 six and 1 five storey tiled stove.12 window sections (6 double windows), 18 doors and 1 staircase, where the house is supplied with water from the pipe; assessed value----2000 kroner. Included 40 kroner for the foundation and 60 kroner for the tiled stoves and the water pipe 40 kroner. Two thousand kroner. The building close to the next etc.... The owners wife present etc....

Endret Februar 2, 2023 av Roy-Petter Askim

[Ian Perry]

Roy-Peder: A huge thank you again from myself and family for this wonderful information.

 

The property outline image is particularly interesting. Together with the internal description from the records I am now able to see in my imagination what the house was like. I did a quick google street tour around the area and found a house that I think looks similar to the line drawing you found in the book at Tårngata 15. Do you think this is what the house would have looked like? … https://goo.gl/maps/52hKSpqvq2r2grgo8

 

My great grandfather Elling Johnsen Fugelstad (he was known as Alexander “Alick” Johnson in Australia) was born in 1834. From what you have said, it is possible that he was born in that house, and surely would have lived there before he left Stavanger as a sailor in the 1850s. Below are links to his baptism and confirmation records from the local church close to where the house is. I can see his name but can’t read the rest of the record to see if it gives an indication of where he lived.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070625670512

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/1666/87

 

Finally, could I please ask you to send me the link to the 1900 census for the property that you viewed. I just can't seem to locate it .

 

my best regards, Ian

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Must be a house built in the same periode, because looks exactly the same in the front. But I expect there were windows in the back of your family house overlooking their small garden, were this one is joined together with the neighbour.

 

I looked up the birth and confirmation record for all the kids, but unfortunately there are no adress mentioned on any of them. I think I have run out of ideas on how to trace John from 1823 forward. Its only name of sponsors and parents.

 

Here is a link to the originals in 1900. Starts with the house info, the family on the ground floor and end with Kathrine Fuglestad on the following pages. https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/37252/9686 

Katerine, transkribed: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/search/persons/advanced?from=1900&to=1900&firstname=katerine&lastname=&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=hetl*&position=&event_year_from=1900&event_year_to=1900&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel 

 

Maybe I can dream up some other ideas over night. Anyway its been an interesting hunt for info!

Endret Februar 2, 2023 av Roy-Petter Askim

[Ian Perry]

Yes, it's been fascinating to me to see how you have thought through this process of finding the old residence etc. And very enjoyable, thank you.

 

John married Anne in 1823 in Nærbo but I can see "Stavanger" written in the record. Not sure what that refers to. I'm happy though that I can now point out to my daughter where the family lived when we visit and that will help her to build a connection with Stavanger and Norway. I believe that to know one's roots is very important.

 

 

 

 

[Roy-Petter Askim]

Had to ask for help with the comment. I posted a link in the transcription group who solved it:
hvis Boepæl bliver i Stavanger.  whose residence will be in Stavanger.
Soldier, bachelor John Johanesen Fuglestad in Ongne Parish, 26,5 year  whose residence will be in Stavanger.
Took a second look at the kids baptism record, since some of the text is unclear. A few observations:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15879/35
125 Maren 1824
John&Anna lives in Rugland, Haa, but "agter at nedsette seg i Stav." intends to settle in Stavanger.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15879/78
101 Ester Malene 1827; can't read the half-line
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15879/120
216 Ester Malene 1830, only Stav.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15880/25
77 Elling 1834	Looks like 111 in the parent column does that mean house 111? (Prior births on the page show:
No. Xxx, house no.) Possibility, need to check.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15880/66
136 Ole J. 1837, just Stavanger.
insurance assessment, house 111.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88188/21				Protocol 1837-45, 111 is in Bakkens rode(district).
Census 1910: Pedersgaten 42. Exists today 500m. from Hetlandsgata, 750 from Domkirken.
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88189/14				Assessment 1837: Steenarbeid= John Johnsen(d).
					Mason= John Johnsen(d)
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/88190/30				Assessment 1846. New owner.
Prop. Register :
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/23596/86
This is not Pedersgaten despite heading says Bakkens Rode, but Nedre Holmegate 36 (Solansbryggen in 1885 in 2. rode. The property was renumbered 2750 at some point according to register 1900->. , but found no page with that number in 1855-register.
John not found in the index-book 1923-1831.
I don't like that I am unable to find him in the property register but maybe he rented or didn't file the purchase as was the case with Hetlandsg., but the entry on Elling suggests John Johnsen in the insurance book could be John Johanessen living in Pedersgaten 42 at the time. Whether he rented or owned is unclear, but possibly he lived there.
Found a Download; A map from 1863 with house numbers, 789 in the middle of the map, top of the field; Fun to see all the open space at that time.
https://www.stavangerbilder.no/fotoweb/archives/5005-Kart/Kart/1863-1867%20-%20Torstrup%2013.tif.info#c=%2Ffotoweb%2Farchives%2F5005-Kart%2F%2B%2Ftorstrups-kart-1863-1867%2F

[Ian Perry]

 

Wonderful stuff. My first reaction to that superb map from the 1860s (thank you for finding that) was to try to work out why a city with a population of maybe 30,000 people (just a guess based on today’s population) would have 4 large churches. I think that says a lot about society at the time.

 

I feel very fortunate to have this map as it puts many things into context for me. At a micro level I can see how the streets were laid out, particularly around Hetlandsgata 25, and why it was that the house came to be removed later. At a macro level I can see the influence/ importance of religion in society at the time.

 

So from the research you sent it seems that the family moved to Stavanger sometime between 1824-1830. They possibly rented a place (possibly Pedersgaten 42) until John built the house at Hetlandsgata 25 in 1844.

 

Question - the spelling Hetlandsgata, Hetlandsgade, Hetlandsgaden - was there a change made in the Norwegian writing system (eg “aa” became “å”) or or do those endings for Hetlands have specific meanings ?

 

I will attach the only photo we have of my great grandfather Elling (Alick Johnson). He is with his wife Sarah who was born in Ireland and immigrated to Australia via England with her family in 1866. Elling was 17 years older but that didn’t stop him from having 14 children ! Not sure of the date of this photo but Sarah looks about 30 and Elling looks about 50. So maybe the photo was taken sometime in the 1880s.

 

 

[Christer Kjølsrud]

This photo from Hetlandsgata was taken “before 1866” by Dorothea Arentz, the first female photographer in Norway. She lived in house number 22 in Hetlandsgata. In the background you can see the front of Domkirken (the cathedral of Stavanger), so we are in the part of the street where your ancestors lived. I wonder if the stone fence on the right hand side of the street could be the fence surrounding Amtssygehuset (the county hospital). You will see what I mean if you look it up in the 1863 map that Roy-Petter linked to: https://www.stavangerbilder.no/fotoweb/archives/5005-Kart/Kart/1863-1867%20-%20Torstrup%2013.tif.info#c=%2Ffotoweb%2Farchives%2F5005-Kart%2F%2B%2Ftorstrups-kart-1863-1867%2F

If your ancestors’ house is on this photo I can’t tell, but at least it gives some idea about the time and the environment they lived in.

 

Hetlandsgata is named after the parish which this part of Stavanger once belonged to. The Hetland church is situated in the other end of Hetlandsgata from the Domkirke.

“Hetlandsgade” is the old Danish spelling of the street’s name (=Hetland street).

“Hetlandsgaten” is the Norwegian spelling with the slightly conservative, definite article ending “-en” (the Hetland street).

“Hetlandsgata” is the Norwegian spelling with the slightly radical, definite article ending “-a” (the Hetland street)

Both the “-en” and the “-a” ending correspond to the English definite article “the”.

“aa” for “å” was introduced in Norwegian in 1917. The sound corresponds to the o-sound in the English pronunciation of the name “Thomas”.

[Christer Kjølsrud]

I walked through Hetlandsgata on Google Earth. Compare this snip with the old photo I posted. The yellow house is number 31. Number 29 is obviously built in the 1950s. The last house before Vaisenhusgata is number 27. Don’t number 31 and 27 look very much like the houses on the old photo?

[Ian Perry]

Thanks Christer for this.

 

I was just now trying to do the same thing you just did. I agree Numbers 31 and 27 are the same houses in the old photo and google screenshot. Number 29 has been replaced. The photographer was probably standing in her house at Hetlandsgata 22 when she took it - a view from her room perhaps. The lens she used in the original photo has squeezed the photo elements, making the houses appear taller and narrower than they are. I will try later today to alter the google image to make it resemble the old photo.

 

That being the case, the photographer may have inadvertantly captured a photo of my family, 2 adults and 2 childen standing outside their house Hetlandsgata 25 !!

 

And thank you very much for the very clear explanation of the different spellings for Hetlandsxxx - very much appreciated.

 

This is gold. Thank you

Endret Februar 4, 2023 av Ian Perry

[Roy-Petter Askim]

I agree on the house numbers, but if you look at the stairs, and the roof-line I think the people is a bit lower in the street. I stretched the photo a bit.

Stavanger with 11700 people in 1855 grew to 16700 in 1865 with Domkirken and St. Petri as their churches. Hetland surrounding Stavanger with some 4200 growing to 5.000, used to be Stavanger landkommune separated in 1837 with their church, (Vår frue). Hetlandkirken was built in 1854, maybe in a combination of the growth and the district structure, and then the methodist church in Hetlandsgata in 1924. The real growth happened in the 1970's when Stavanger became the oil capital city of Norway.

 

If you choose 1880 and download Lange 13.Tif you can see the massive expansion where the field is completely developed and Vaisenhusgata established already.

 

https://www.stavangerbilder.no/fotoweb/archives/5005-Kart/

 

It's nice to have a photo to the name. I have a few of my great grandparents and one of their family taken in front of the Askim farm around 1900, and found the story on how they met right before a family reunion a few years back.

Do you know the location of this Rose light hut Elling worked at?

[Ian Perry]

Ah yes, the steps that the children would play on and "Gold-Trine" would scare them away from. I agree with you Roy-Petter that the family in the photo is one or maybe two houses further down the road.

 

I went looking for Dorothea Arentz information and found this website which has some really good information about her. I haven't tried yet, but do you know if there is a collection of her photos of early Stavanger available online? ...

https://fotonettverk-rogaland.no/photographistinden-dorothea-arentz/

 

Re your question about Elling .... my dad always told us that our ancestor Alick Johnson (Elling), his grandfather, arrived in Australia by "jumping ship" - a fairly common practice in those days. I haven't been able to find out how he got here but I'm guessing it was as crew on a passenger ship out of London during the period 1855- early 1860s. The first record I could find for him here was an employment record he had with the government. In fact, the birthdate on that contract was the way I was able to find him in the Norway Archives because I had no idea his name was Elling at the time. That was a constant 6 month search to find him, and my greatest genealogical achievement to find him in the Norway Archives !! (thank goodness Norway has such an amazing Archive). Anyway, the employment record (you may have seen this on his Ancestry profile) says he was employed as a "Light Keeper at 'Rose' light ship". That was 1865. What that means is this ... before they built the Lighthouse on Moreton Island at the mouth of the Brisbane River (where I think Alick worked later before he married in 1868) they had a ship brought up from Sydney and placed in the waters between the Moreton Island and Brisbane. On that ship they had a temporary "lighthouse" to help the ships navigate in to the harbour. I tried some time ago to find out about this ship but failed. I will have another attempt later today and if I find anything I will send it. After they married, the couple went north to a placed called Mackay. He lived there for the rest of his life working in seaman-related jobs (eg he was a "pilot" at one stage).

Endret Februar 5, 2023 av Ian Perry

[Roy-Petter Askim]

I am not aware of any collection after her, except for the photos who shows up on google. The largest general collection of photos: https://digitaltmuseum.no/ but only a few portraits from her in there.

 

I don’t subscribe to Ancestry, but saw the record in Familysearch. Didn’t think of that Rose could be a ship name so I started searching for a place close to Mackay. Read a few articles I found now, critic that “Rose” was placed in a wrong position in 1861, and construction of the Lighthouses. I saw he deserted in 1855 on the “rulle”, and it is probably difficult to find him between 1855 and 1865 since he could have sailed on ships of different nationalities until he appears in Australia. Also, a pity that earlier years sailor records are not available for Stavanger from what I can find so we could have seen what Norwegian ships he worked on.

 

You probably have the link, but anyway: Elling Johansen Fuglestad patent no. 403  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/39405/206  

Free from Conscription 16.02.1864. He has been sailing abroad for 40 months then. Maybe entry made to clear him from the roll since he is supposed to have deserted in 1855 according to the remark.

1. bef= fully experienced. Sailors were divided in 4 groups; no experience, half exp., exp., and fully exp.

Prior to Hovedrulle he should have been on a Annotasjonsrulle, but those are only

available from 1860. Rules for the rulle-system came 1859.

[Christer Kjølsrud]

No, it doesn’t exist any collection of Dorothea Arentz’ photos, according to Fotonettverk Rogaland.

 

Stavanger city archive actually has a photo of 25 Hetlandsgata. It is taken some time between 1910 and 1920 and carries this text: “The Methodist church, 7 Waisenhusgaten. On the right hand side 25 Hetlandsgata before the demolition.” The Methodist church sits on the land where Amtssygehuset was situated (1836 map) behind the stone fence (Dorothea Arentz’ photo). 25 Hetlandsgata has a “modern” extension on first floor, but you can still see the original shape of the house.

Here is the link, where you also can order a copy of the photo:

https://digitaltmuseum.no/021018268475/vaisenhusgaten-mot-nord

Endret Februar 5, 2023 av Christer Kjølsrud