Can anyone help?

[Jackie K Marler]

Obviously, since  its on the map from 1876 there was a cemetery there. The record of their deaths don't say which cemetery is the one, that info comes from FAG.  The site might  have been being used as a cemetery without a "formal" organization or perhaps the people who put the cemetery part of the information up on FAG are less than fully informed about it's history.  Lots of human possibilities.  The other thing is there is no picture of Ellen's nor Henry's stones along with a 23 year old + Anderson who died in 1876., so it;s hard to question where the error lays.  I think that Henry's data in FAG was based on an erroneous read of what's in the death record.  The death date in FAG is 12 Nov 1892 but clearly in the record its 12 Nov 1882.  If you subtract the age of 74 years from 1892 you get 1818, 74 from 1882 gets you 1808.  The handwritten record is Henry not Kenny. 

 

Have you ever seen the show "Cold Justice?"  Kelly Siegler the host and former prosecutor explains that many prosecutors are afraid of taking a case to court that lacks direct evidence (like this controversy about Hans and Henry etc.)  We don't have the words from Henry's hand or mouth, no Hans' hand or mouth.  Kelly's illustration of a circumstantial evidence case is holding a handful of pencils.  You can take one pencil from the bunch and you can break it.  But if you have lots of circumstantial evidence in the bunch of pencils, you cannot break the handful.  That's the value of all the little details, they are like the bunch of pencils holding each other strong.

[Robert Anderson]

That makes perfect sense. I did notice the discrepancy in the death year as well. All the information I have thus far came pretty easily until I hit the Norway wall I’m calling it. If nothing else, it does finally confirm that the paternal side of my genealogy originated in Norway and not Scotland. The maternal side was a wealth of information but my mothers family originated in France and records seemed to be readily available. With the name changes and such on the Norwegian side of things, it makes tracing my line prior to emigration almost impossible. 

[Jackie K Marler]

Oh, I don't know which system is better, the Norwegian naming customs or American / English naming customs.  I've done lots of research in the American south because of my heritage there and it would be so worthwhile to have a clue to the prior generation imbedded in the name such you have with Olson, Pederson, etc.

 

The Norwegians who came here, unlike a lot of other heritages, knew they were taking a part in something big and actually kept a lot of records on themselves as a result.  That might not be true of particular families but in general. 

[Robert Anderson]

I would tend to agree but on the same note, I can understand the wanting to change your name when emigrating to the US as being an immigrant in the mid 1800’s in this country was sometimes hazardous to your well being. As I stated in an early post, apparently, the paternal side of my family was horrible at keeping and maintaining records. No papers, no family bibles, nothing. 

[Jackie K Marler]

Well, it was mostly the men in your Norwegian family that survived.  Generally, across many situations it's the women who give the culture to the children.  In your case, not many or any of the female spouses in the family were Norwegian, too, to pass on the memorable experiences and way to do things.

[Robert Anderson]

Agreed. If I fail to find anything else, at least now I have a known heritage that I can explore, research the history of and be proud of. 

[Jackie K Marler]

There appears to be some searchables at the Marlette Public Library site:

https://www.marlettelibrary.org/genealogy

[Anton Hagelee]

4 hours ago, Robert Anderson said:

Agreed. If I fail to find anything else, at least now I have a known heritage that I can explore, research the history of and be proud of. 

 

And do not underestimate the usefulness of the  Ancestry.com in finding the original records for baptisms and marriages of your Norwegian ancestors. Here is likely the marriage of Hans Arnesen and Eli Syversdatter in Vinger Parish, Hedmark in  1840. 

 

Hans Arnesen

in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

NameHans Arnesen

GenderMale

Marriage Date29. mar 1840 (29 Mar 1840)

Marriage PlaceVinger, Hedmark, Norway

SpouseEli Syversdr

FHL Film Number124483

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/3277302:60095?_phsrc=Oke1&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=hans&gsln=arnesen&ml_rpos=5&queryId=aecd543b7587203a8d9d03567a3aff05

[Anton Hagelee]

The original record is Nr 22. Note the the original record gives the father of both the bride and groom. That can be very useful for finding the baptism records for both and Hans and Eli.  Note also that the  ages and farms associated with the famiiise are given as well. 

 

Nr 22

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603190255

 

Here is the transcribed version of the above marriage record. It does a good job of giving the information clearly and easily read,

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000009524198

 

For Hans his birth year is about 1815 and the farm is Kapstad. Father is Arne Christiansen

 

For Eli the birth year is 1817 and the farm is Torp. Father is Syver Olsen.

 

This information can be checked against the information from the Bydebok information provided by Justin Stokke.

Endret September 5, 2023 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Based on the information above, this is likely the baptism record for Hans Arnesen.

 

Hans Arnesen

in the Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927

NameHans Arnesen

GenderMale

Birth Date8. des 1814 (8 Dec 1814)

Birth PlaceVinger, Hedmark, Norway

Baptism Date26. des 1814 (26 Dec 1814)

Baptism PlaceVinger, Hedmark, Norway

Name NoteTwin

FatherArne Chrisiansen Nordre Kapstad

MotherMarthe Hansdatter

FHL Film Number124482

Reference IDbk7 p37

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/431785:60092?_phsrc=Oke2&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=hans&ml_rpos=1&queryId=5d55874787580dd4db5a2c8fa42d1cd8

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

The original record is Nr 93

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603180074

 

And again the transcribed version from Digital Arkivet

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000013015144

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

And the same procedure for Eli gives us

 

Eli Syversdatter

in the Norway, Select Baptisms, 1634-1927

NameEli Syversdatter

GenderFemale

Birth Date21. feb 1817 (21 Feb 1817)

Baptism Date9. mar 1817 (9 Mar 1817)

Baptism PlaceVinger, Hedmark, Norway

FatherSyver Olsen

MotherMaria Olsdr

FHL Film Number124481

Reference ID740

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/1130241:60092?_phsrc=Oke4&_phstart=successSource&gsfn=eli&ml_rpos=3&queryId=3e2bdf81c81acafdb8fbf03817971c38

 

 

Endret September 5, 2023 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

The original record for Eli is Nr 28 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603180131

 

And again the transcribed version 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/255/pd00000037053449

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

I noticed that the Bygdebok record posted by Justin has Marthe Hansdater wife of Arne Christiansen dying  in 1825. Here is also the Ancestry record for that event.

 

Marthe Hansdr

in the Norway, Select Burials, 1666-1927

NameMarthe Hansdr

GenderFemale

Marital StatusMarried

Age44y

Birth Date1781

Death Date13. mai 1825 (13 May 1825)

Death PlaceVinger Parish, Norway

Burial Date20. mai 1825 (20 May 1825)

SpouseArne Christiansen

FHL Film Number124481

Reference ID1663

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/66800:60093

 

Original record Nr 25

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070603180187

 

 

 

 

Endret September 5, 2023 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Based on the Bygdebok this is Arne Christiansen and his family in the 1801 Norwegian Census. His father is Christian Embretsen and his mother is  Lisbeth Johansdatter. 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058240005268

 

 

[Jostein Stokke]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:46 AM, Jackie K Marler said:

The birthdate from Norwegian records 24 June 1840 Eidskog vs 24 Nov 1840 Christina

It is  1842. But is the correct?

Born 24 June - bapt 11 December? Not bapt at home.

I should say 24 November is more plausible......

 

Martin Hansen - his elder brother died 14 December 1841 - 12 days old.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Anton, all that is great but I have no way of honestly knowing with any certainty that these names correspond with the names that I know. I was hoping to maybe find something that tied the Norwegian names to the English names they took if that’s the case. 

[Jackie K Marler]

There were 16 people in the 1860 census of Sanilac (across all townships) who were born in Norway.

There were 14 people in the 1870 census of  "               "                                    "      "         "        "

There were 38 people in the 1880 census of      "                                                                   "     ".

 

Do we have an exact birthdate for the son Martin who came to US?

[Robert Anderson]

I don’t even know about a son Martin. Everything I have uncovered so far only listed one son named Seymore, born in 1844

[Jackie K Marler]

Okay,  it'll have to be the Ph.d method, (piled higher & deeper) I guess!

 

About Martin I'm looking for another invisible thread to tie the family in Norway to the people in United States.  In FAG there is a truncated headstone  in the same cemetery that Ellen and Henry are buried in, name of unknown Anderson died 16 April 1876 aged 23 years, 7 months, 23 days   https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/164221471/unknown-anderson

Granted that there are some issues with the FAG data in the cemetery as presented online but if doing the math subtracting the age as given from the date of death as given might produce a birthdate close to or exact to Martin's.  Although there's not a great likelihood as none of the other survivors in the target family have been remarkbly informed about their dates

 

Also, here is the contributor info for the burial:

Since it was harvested and uploaded in 2016, it's possible that since the name is illegible, the stone may have been damaged in the vandalism at the cemetery in 2014, also noted on FAG:

 

"Sep 6, 2014, Update - The Sanilac Sheriff's Department reports that 32 headstones were toppled over this weekend with either ATV's or a chain. Community and family assistence is needed to find who the people were who damaged this small cemetery...."

 

Have you registered at familysearch.org yet?  As noted it is free of charge but you must register to use the resources there.

[Robert Anderson]

I have registered with FAG now. Also read through some articles from the newspaper resource you gave me. When I put in Henry Anderson, three newspapers came up that apparently had that name in them but I couldn’t find them. Incredibly difficult to read though. I did search the cemetery that Henry and Ellen are buried in and did notice the unknown Anderson grave as well. Seymore was born in 1844 so it’s quite possible that another child could have been born in 1854 or so. 
I know several people have referenced some names from Norway but I’m not sure how they are correlating those names with the English names. 

[Jostein Stokke]

1 hour ago, Jackie K Marler said:

Do we have an exact birthdate for the son Martin who came to US?

I think he is here somewhere....

 

But he was born 17 Aug 1852 and bapt 19 Sept .  #239

Vinger prestekontor, SAH/PREST-024/H/Ha/Haa/L0009: Ministerialbok nr. 9, 1847-1855, s. 144
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070124320399

 

 

 

Endret September 6, 2023 av Jostein Stokke

[Robert Anderson]

Jostein, if that’s the case, he would have been born in the US as Henry and Ellen emigrated to the US in 1850

[Jostein Stokke]

2 minutes ago, Robert Anderson said:

Jostein, hvis det er tilfelle, ville han blitt født i USA da Henry og Ellen emigrerte til USA i 1850

OK but Hans and Eli emigrated in 1853.

[Jackie K Marler]

If Seymour came to US in 1850 he would have been 5 years old only.  Sending a child unaccompanied for a 2 month to 2 week trip in a harsh environment would not be something that most parents would do, so most likely Seymour came with his family.