Help required to confirm origins of Johannes Olsen (born 1758-59)

[Ian Perry]

 

Could someone please help me to establish ...
1. if Johannes Olsen (born about 1758-59) was originally from the Ogna area of Rogaland or did he come from another place.
2. if he came from another place, are there any records which would help to identify where he came from/ who his parents were? Someone has previously suggested to me that there may be church records which listed people moving in/out of the parish and that there were "travel passes" for people moving from one district to another that had to be shown to the pastor to indicate that they had a legitimate reason for travelling e.g., work or family. I haven't been able to find this kind of record in the Archives so if anyone can help with this I would appreciate it.

 

I can't find a baptism record in Ogna in 1758-59 for Johannes Olsen (his birth year is extrapolated from the 1801 census record). The earliest record I have for a Johannes Olsen in Ogna (I think it's him, but not 100% sure) is a Confirmation record in 1779. If this is the correct Johannes then he would have been about 20 years old at his Confirmation date - would this be possible to be confirmed at that age? The next record is his Marriage in 1784 and then later he appears in the 1801 Census record (links to all these records are below).

 

Based on the idea that Johannes may have come from another area, someone in the Forum previously kindly located a potential Johannes Olsen who was the right age who had a potential reason for leaving his original home - his mother had died in 1778 (the year prior to his Confirmation in Ogna) and potentially he had left or been sent away from the family home in Steinberg farm in Lund and made his way to Ogna. Perhaps he had family already there in Ogna?

 

I do have a good 18cM DNA match with a descendant of the sister of the mother of Johannes Olsen Steinberg from Lund. So, I am optimistic that he may the correct guy. But to dismiss lingering doubts and to be 100% sure that this Johannes Olsen is the same as the Johannes Olsen in Ogna it is important that I find some documentary evidence if it exists.

 

Many thanks in advance if you are able to help me with this enquiry which is a very important in establishing the origins of this branch of my family in Norway. (Thank you Bruce, Anton, Matthias for your previous assistance).

 

My regards,
Ian

 

Links to the records referred to above are here:

 

Marriage 28 Nov 1784 (Johannes Olsen & Martha Olsdatter)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NW6N-BQH

 

Census 1801 (Johannes Olsen Boxdal)
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01058350002066

 

Death/Burial 13 Fe 1803 (Johannes Bøgsdahlen)
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001197142

 

"Gards og ættesoga: For Ogna" (Vol 3)
Bogsdalen 12, page 112 & Bogsdalen 11b, page 112
https://www.nb.no/items/9f3df5c0d3cee86a23f30408ef31446c?page=115

 

Confirmation 16 May 1779 (Johannes Olsen Qvalbej)
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070418650490

 

Baptism 6/7 Jan 1759 Johannes (father = Ola Steinberg)
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/15828/146

 

"Lunds Historie. I : Gårdens og Slektens Liv"
Br. nr. 8 - Steinberg (III. 2), page 575
https://www.nb.no/items/URN:NBN:no-nb_digibok_2019010848504?page=576

 

An index card of 27 May 1779 which references Johannes
SAST, Jæren og Dalane sorenskriveri, 5, 1778-1786, s. 361
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20110328661067

[Matthias Kolberg]

8 hours ago, Ian Perry said:

Confirmation record in 1779. If this is the correct Johannes then he would have been about 20 years old at his Confirmation date - would this be possible to be confirmed at that age?

Here is a confirmation record from a different parish from the same time period. It shows that age can be anything from 15 to 22.

Skjeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, SAO/A-10923/F/Fa/L0002: Ministerialbok nr. I 2, 1726-1791, s. 224
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061013030531
 

[Ian Perry]

8 minutes ago, Matthias Kolberg said:

Here is a confirmation record from a different parish from the same time period. It shows that age can be anything from 15 to 22.

Yes, thanks Matthias, very common indeed for late teenagers or older to have their confirmation in that parish. For some reason I thought most were done at 14-16 years. Very interesting.

[Matthias Kolberg]

The Norwegian Wikipedia article on “confirmation” provides a good description of the historic Danish/Norwegian confirmation practices under the section “Tradisjonell kristen konfirmasjon”

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfirmasjon

 

Here is a slightly edited google translation:

 

“In Norway, confirmation was required by law in 1736. It was legislated that everyone during their youth should be confirmed through a public examination in the Christian faith and a church initiation with the laying on of hands and intercession. With this requirement, confirmation became a legal necessity for full entry into adult society. No one could be drafted for military service, enter into marriage, be a sponsor at a baptism or testify in court without a confirmation certificate. And if you hadn't attended confirmation by the age of 19, you could be punished with penitentiary or pillory. If the confirmant did not pass the public exam in the church, he was "rejected" and had to be confirmed again the following year.”

[Ian Perry]

@Matthias Kolberg I previously thought that Johannes - assuming he had come in to the community as an outsider - might have have used the Confirmation as a way of "legitimising" his residence there, but that article shows it had much more serious implications than I realised. Thank you for sharing that with me. These kinds of cultural/historical are important as well as being very interesting. I just found his 1784 marriage in the Archives which I now realise could only have been achieved by completing the Confirmation.

 

Marriage 28 Nov 1784 (with banns on 7 Nov)

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070418650484

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

The wikipedia article is rather superficial, and should not be thought to "show" anything.

I have seen many confirmands above 19, but rarely seen any punishment.

In general, laws and directives from the 1700s often specify punishment as a possibility, just in case. These possibilities were used when 

the authorities found it necessary, but not always as a rule.

 

Johannes (confirmation, marriage) is clearly from "Qualbej" (Kvalbein) in Ogna.  Bogsdalen is also in Ogna.

At the time, Ogna was a subparish ("sokn") under Eigersund parish (prestegjeld).

Both confirmation and marriage were in Ogna church. At confirmation, this is specified ("... blev i Ougne Kirke førlgende af

sognets undet mennesker confirmerede"). The marriage is found in the Ogna section of the parish registry (separate sections

for Ogna "sokn" and Eigersund "sokn".

 

This means that Johannes did not move to another parish for confirmation and marriage. No attestation or travel pass to show or register.

There is, of course, a possibility that he moved to Kvalbeid with his parents as a child.

 

 

As far as I can see, the only indication of his birth year is the age in the 1801 Census (43rd year of life at 1 Feb), that is approx. 1758.

and a "probable" age of 15-20 at confirmation, 1779 (i.e. b. approx. 1759-64)

 

Notice that Johannes is a very frequent name (e.g. 3 out of 20 boys in the confirmation Ogna 1779);   Ole (and thus Olsen) was even more frequent.

 

You have probably checked the "bygdebok" for Ogna/Kvalbein: https://www.nb.no/items/9f3df5c0d3cee86a23f30408ef31446c?page=133

where he is not found.

 Regardless of quality is other aspects, a bygdebok usually make a correct list of the holders of a farm - and no suitable Ole is mentioned.

Johannes must have had some other relation to Kvalbein, which is not included by the author.  There are several possibilities

(son of a "husmann" or "innerst", legitimate or illegitimate son of a son or daugther of a holder, foster son, stepson, ...).

 

[Matthias Kolberg]

The point of the Wikipedia text was to show that confirmation was a legal requirement to take part in society, not merely a question of personal faith.

 

The text also shows that the confirmation age was not limited to 14-16, as already shown from the example from Skjeberg, were several were above 20.
 

 

 

[Ian Perry]

7 hours ago, Matthias Kolberg said:

a legal requirement to take part in society

 

7 hours ago, Matthias Kolberg said:

age was not limited to 14-16

 

Yes, these are the points made in the article that I understood to be relevant to this enquiry.

[Ian Perry]

9 hours ago, Ivar S. Ertesvåg said:

You have probably checked the "bygdebok"

Yes, Ivar I have checked the bygdebok for Kvalbein as well as several others nearby eg Fuglestad, Bogsdalen, Friestad and there does not seem to be a likely candidate for "Johannes Olsen" who appears in any of them. This is why I lean towards the idea that he may have come from further away. As you say, he must have had some particular connection to Kvalbein - finding this connection is proving difficult. Maybe he had a relative living there and he has come to join them perhaps? In the absence of a baptism record in Ogna, I was hoping there would be some form of documentation that would reveal his background, parents etc.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

1 time siden, Ian Perry skrev:

Yes, Ivar I have checked the bygdebok for Kvalbein as well as several others nearby eg Fuglestad, Bogsdalen, Friestad and there does not seem to be a likely candidate for "Johannes Olsen" who appears in any of them.

It can be useful to notice that the Ogna bygdebok was based on "spare material" from the books of Nærbø and Varhaug,

see the introduction https://www.nb.no/items/9f3df5c0d3cee86a23f30408ef31446c?page=9

This means that there has not been a comprehensive and targeted search for material for Ogna sokn.

Combined with the fact that there are few sources about people that are not farmers (tax payers, partners in contracts etc.),

there are most likely quite a few inhabitants who are not mentioned.

If, for instance (hypothetically), Johannes was a stepson of a farmer, and came to Kvalbein with his mother - this would

most likely not be documented anywhere. A division of inheritage ("skifte"; often, somewhat misleading, ctranslated to "probate" in English)

after his mother would be a possibility, but in most cases  the division was made private. Moreover, such sources are among those that might

have slipped the committee that completed the Ogna bygdebok.

Also a "husmann" or "innerst" and their families are rarely well recorded in the sources.

 

In short, it may be that

- he left no traces in documents before confirmation;

- he is mentioned somewhere, but the bygdebok committee didnot find this piece of documentation;

- he is mentioned, but the source(s) do(es) not include sufficient information to connect him to "your" Johannes (confirmed/married/dead)

 

 

 

 

 

[Ian Perry]

@Ivar S. Ertesvåg Thank you Ivar for your insight into this. It seems then that I may have hit my proverbial brick wall. I suppose now the only possibility is if a DNA connection arises. I appreciate you taking the time to look at this for me.

[Matthias Kolberg]

On 12/9/2023 at 11:19 PM, Ian Perry said:

An index card of 27 May 1779 which references Johannes
SAST, Jæren og Dalane sorenskriveri, 5, 1778-1786, s. 361
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20110328661067

Here is also the index card of 10 July 1784, after the death of his father, Ole Tronsen Steenberg.

Rogaland fylke, Jæren og Dalane, Skiftekort (1778-1786), Skifteprotokollside, Side 363
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20110328661069
 

In the original document, Johannes Olsen and his siblings are mentioned several times, but there is nothing (as far as I can see) to suggest that he had left the parish at this point.

Rogaland, Vest-Agder fylke, Jæren og Dalane, Skifteprotokoll nr. BA 16C (1783-1786), Skifteprotokollside, Side 545b-546a
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20081107640046

 

What is puzzling is that Johannes Olsen can not be found among the confirmation youth in Lund.
His older brother, Tron Olsen, was confirmed in 1776. 
Bottom right:

Rogaland fylke, Lund i Lund, Ministerialbok nr. A 3 (1761-1801), Konfirmerte 1776, Side 548-549
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb10511104150181
 

 

[Ian Perry]

Yes, this is very confusing. Just to make it more confusing, here is a record for an Ole Tronsen Stenberg May 31 1794 - 10 years after that index card. May be a different guy as his birth year would have been 1718 not 1726.

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15829/111

 

But given that Johannes keeps appearing in the Lund records, and despite the fact that there is no confirmation record which is strange I agree, it is looking like this Johannes Olsen in Lund may not be correct.

 

I might trawl through the Ogna records again one by one just to verify that he wasn't baptised there in 1758/59.

 

Question - is it possible that he may have married his half sister? I'm not sure how illegitimacy was handled in those days. His wife's father is the right age (Johanne's wife was born a year earlier than him). Maybe they shared a father (named Ole) and had different mothers. That may explain why his baptism record hasn't been easy to locate - because it has been covered up.

 

After that, I have a list of all the Ole and Ola names from the Ogna register which I might start working through. Crude approach I know but I'm very keen to find him.

 

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

8 timer siden, Ian Perry skrev:

Question - is it possible that he may have married his half sister? I'm not sure how illegitimacy was handled in those days.

 

No. marriage between half siblings have never been legal in Norway (as long as we know about laws).

In the 1700s, an illigitimate relation would lead to a death penalty for both if it had been detected.

 

Parish records from the 1700s are often incomplete.  Some baptisms, marriages and burials may be missing.

 

I do not see any problems if Johannes from Lund was confirmed in Ogna. He might be working there for one or more years.

My experience (which, indeed, is from Sunnmøre farther north, not from Rogaland), however, is that his parents home would

be used as surname, not his temporary residence.

[Ian Perry]

Thanks Ivar. That's great info.

 

I've just been through the original Egersund-Ogna records for 1757-1760 and there is only one Johannes recorded but it's not him. The records for that area and time period don't seem to have any periods missing so it can probably be assumed that Johannes was born outside of the Egersund-Ogna area.

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

2 minutter siden, Ian Perry skrev:

Thanks Ivar. That's great info.

 

I've just been through the original Egersund-Ogna records for 1757-1760 and there is only one Johannes recorded but it's not him. The records for that area and time period don't seem to have any periods missing so it can probably be assumed that Johannes was born outside of the Egersund-Ogna area.

 

Lack of records is not just a matter of missing periods.  Individuals can be missing due to lack of care and minuteness in the recording.

I made an investigation of the parish registry of Volda (Møre og Romsdal) 1741-60, and found that about one-fifth of baptisms were missing.

This was partly due to a few lost sheets of the protocol; however, mainly due to lack of care.  https://folk.ntnu.no/ivarse/slekt/paalit.html

The clergy for most of this time made records for every sunday/holiday in 16 years (except for one 3-week travel to Bergen). Yet, quite a few

baptisms are missing.

 

 

[Ian Perry]

In relation to the above remark about original records .... I can't find the original records for parishes adjacent to Ogna/Egersund for the 1700s in the Archives, for example around Varhaug (eg Ånestad, Skretting) and even closer to Ogna near Vigrestad (eg Rugland and Herigstad farms).

 

For example, I would like to find the original record for Ester Malene Olsdatter Herigstad (born 1764, married 1787)

 

Are these original records lost, not scanned or simply not available?

Endret Desember 13, 2023 av Ian Perry

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

8 timer siden, Ian Perry skrev:

In relation to the above remark about original records .... I can't find the original records for parishes adjacent to Ogna/Egersund for the 1700s in the Archives, for example around Varhaug (eg Ånestad, Skretting) and even closer to Ogna near Vigrestad (eg Rugland and Herigstad farms).

 

For example, I would like to find the original record for Ester Malene Olsdatter Herigstad (born 1764, married 1787)

 

Are these original records lost, not scanned or simply not available?

 

All church registries before apprx. 1900 are scanned and made available at Digitalarkivet.

 

Ånestad, Skretting, Rugland and Herigstad are all in Varhaug "sokn", which was part of Hå (formerly called Bø) "prestegjeld".

Available registries:  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb/browse?archives[]=no-a1450-06000000030199&start_year=&end_year=&text=

Elder protocols (before 1787) are lost.

[Ian Perry]

OK, thanks again Ivar. Found my 3rd great grandparents marriage right near the front in 1787 (Elling Johnsen Rugland + Ester Malene Olsdatter Herigstad).

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/15800/6

[Ian Perry]

Ole Nilsen Bogsdalen and Elen Omundsdatter had a daughter in 1759 in Ogna called Malene (https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8757/14). Is "Böe" the word which follows the mother's name and is that a farm name or an indication of where she came from? I can't find that in the farm names list.

 

[Matthias Kolberg]

The child, Malene, was carried to baptism by Malene Olsdatter Bøe

(Baarit af Malene Olsdatter Bøe).

The mother’s name is not included in this entry.

 

The farm Bø lies west of Fuglestad, north of Bogsdalen

 

[Ian Perry]

Thanks Matthias. That's clear now. 👍

[Ian Perry]

A few months back, Mathias and Ivar kindly helped me with my query about Johannes Olsen Kvalbein. I was just looking at his original burial record (13 Feb 1803) and can see there is quite a lot of information there, though it is not very clear. I’d appreciate it if someone could have a look at the original record to see if there is any information in it that might relate to his parents or where he came from.

 

Many thanks!

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/8759/68

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000001197142

[Matthias Kolberg]

There is no additional information, as far as I can see

 

13- Jordet Manden Johannes Bøgsdahlen ….. gl

 

Jordet Manden means ”buried man“

[Ian Perry]

OK, thanks Matthias. Much appreciated.