Could Hilda Lammassaari have been born 25.05.1887 in USA or Canada and later immigrated to Finland (Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya) via Norway?

[Dmitri]

Could Hilda Lammassaari have been born 25.05.1887 in USA or Canada and later immigrated to Finland (Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya) via Norway?
My great-grandfather Mikko Muhos was born 30.10.1882 in Tervalo, Finland - according to Murmansk archive;
- my great-grandmother Hilda Lammassaari was born 25.05.1887 in Norway - according to the Murmansk archive.
The error of the Murmansk archive is that: the place of residence was indicated as the place of birth.
For example: Mikko Muhos was born 01.10.1882 in Pielavesi, Finland, not in Tervalo, as in the certificate of the Murmansk archive.
It can be assumed that Hilda Lammassaari was working in Norway before moving to Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya.  

According to Finnish church records, she was not born in Finland.

2007 07 18_STATE_ARCHIVE_OF_MURMANSK_REGION_HILDA_LAMMASSARI_.pdf 2022 01 26 Oppfølging - Slekt - Hilda Lammassaari - f. 1887 - Vadsø.pdf

[Anton Hagelee]

I received your DM about Hilda Lammassaari  and am responding on your original message. Searching Ancestry.com for a Hilda Lammassaari without specifying birth country or age does not turn  up many candidates. Here is an  emigration record for a  Hilda Lammassaari but the birth year is apt 1894. So this may not be the person you are looking for. She is traveling from Norway. 

 

Hilda Lammassoari

in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

NameHilda Lammassoari[Hilda Lammasori]

GenderFemale

Ethnicity/ NationalityFinnish

Marital StatusSingle

Age22

Birth Dateabt 1894

Birth PlaceFinland

Other Birth PlaceLemo

Last Known ResidenceLonio, Finland

Departure PortChristiania

Arrival Date3 Oct 1916

Arrival PortNew York, New York, USA

Residence PlaceFinland

Final DestinationGardner, Massachusetts

Height5 Feet, 6 1/2 Inches

Hair ColorBlonde

Eye ColorBlue

ComplexionFair

Money in Possession5 1/2

Person in Old CountryG. Lammasori

Person in Old Country RelationshipFather

Person in Old Country ResidenceFinland

Person in USD. Jokelikter

Person in US RelationshipSister

FatherG. Lammasori

SiblingD. Jokelikter

Ship NameHellig Olav

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/4017234250:7488

 

 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

[Anton Hagelee]

Hilda born in 1894 is probably this person in America?

 

Hilma Soderlund

Census • United States Census, 1930

 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7DB-ZRL

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

There are a few records on persons with the last name  Lammassaari in Ancestry.com or Familysearch.com but no specific records for a Hilda  Lammassaari born in 1887 on either site. 

[Dmitri]

Hello, Anton!
Thank you for the information.
Are there any sites where I could look up those born in 1887 in Canada? 
The fact is that her husband worked at the port of Oslo-
Christiania-Christiansburg in 1915-1916.
In 1916 he worked at the port of Murmansk.
I think that she in the period 1915-1920 could have arrived in the port of Christiane. From Khristiane to the port of Murmansk.

Thanks in advance!

[Grethe Flood]

I find this on Geni:

https://www.geni.com/people/Hilda-Muhos-Lammassaari/6000000129065824993

https://www.geni.com/people/Mikko-Muhos/6000000174932820840

https://www.geni.com/people/Tuure-Muhos/6000000128976434823

 

From the Finnish Suku Forum: 

https://suku.genealogia.fi/showthread.php?t=2812 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dmitri]

25 minutter siden, Grethe Flood skrev:

I find this on Geni:

https://www.geni.com/people/Hilda-Muhos-Lammassaari/6000000129065824993

https://www.geni.com/people/Mikko-Muhos/6000000174932820840

https://www.geni.com/people/Tuure-Muhos/6000000128976434823

 

From the Finnish Suku Forum: 

https://suku.genealogia.fi/showthread.php?t=2812 

 

 

 

 

 

this information was posted by me in conjunction with other users of the Geni website. Hilda's place of birth is not Norway or Finland.
The error of the Murmansk archive is that: the place of residence was indicated as the place of birth.
For example: Mikko Muhos was born 01.10.1882 in Pielavesi, Finland, not in Tervalo, as in the certificate of the Murmansk archive.
It can be assumed that Hilda Lammassaari was working in Norway before moving to Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya.  
According to Finnish church records, she was not born in Finland.

[Dmitri]

14 minutter siden, Dmitri skrev:

this information was posted by me in conjunction with other users of the Geni website. Hilda's place of birth is not Norway or Finland.
The error of the Murmansk archive is that: the place of residence was indicated as the place of birth.
For example: Mikko Muhos was born 01.10.1882 in Pielavesi, Finland, not in Tervalo, as in the certificate of the Murmansk archive.
It can be assumed that Hilda Lammassaari was working in Norway before moving to Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya.  
According to Finnish church records, she was not born in Finland.

The fact is that her husband worked at the port of Oslo (Christiania) in 1915-1916.
In 1916 he worked at the port of Murmansk.
I think that she in the period 1915-1920 could have arrived in the port of Christiania. From Christiania to the port of Murmansk.

so I think birthplace is Canada or USA.

 

[Harald Korneliussen]

Welcome to the site, Dmitri!

I know that there are a number of very good researchers who have studied the Kola Norwegians, so I hope someone can help. My experience with them is limited - a few friends of the family and/or their spouses in the north were Kola Norwegians - but I'll try to have a look.

 

You say she was not born in Finland according to Finnish church records, but how can you be sure of this? They're not exhaustively indexed are they? Even if they are for the period, I know from experience that it can be hard to find people.

 

Also, is there a specific reason you think they may have been born in US/Canada?
 

(One thing, I don't know if they changed it but we are supposed to use full names in this forum, so many people will be happy if you add your last name!)

[Dmitri]

1 time siden, Harald Korneliussen skrev:

Welcome to the site, Dmitri!

I know that there are a number of very good researchers who have studied the Kola Norwegians, so I hope someone can help. My experience with them is limited - a few friends of the family and/or their spouses in the north were Kola Norwegians - but I'll try to have a look.

 

You say she was not born in Finland according to Finnish church records, but how can you be sure of this? They're not exhaustively indexed are they? Even if they are for the period, I know from experience that it can be hard to find people.

 

Also, is there a specific reason you think they may have been born in US/Canada?
 

(One thing, I don't know if they changed it but we are supposed to use full names in this forum, so many people will be happy if you add your last name!)

Hello, Harald!
Thank you for the information.
I will try to answer your questions:
- : “You say she was not born in Finland according to Finnish church records, but how can you be sure of this? They're not exhaustively indexed are they? “ - I have made inquiries to almost all parishes in Finland. I would like to dwell on the answers from the three parishes where the surname comes from: Simo, Rauna, Pudasjärvi - they could not find birth and baptismal records. 
- : “Also, is there a specific reason you think they may have been born in US/Canada?”  - Many of the places mentioned above were moving to Canada and the US at the time (statistically), so assumed it was possible.

I also assumed this in view of the Murmansk archive's error, viz:

The error of the Murmansk archive is that: the place of residence was indicated as the place of birth.
For example: Mikko Muhos was born 01.10.1882 in Pielavesi, Finland, not in Tervalo, as in the certificate of the Murmansk archive.

It can be assumed that Hilda Lammassaari worked or was in Norway for some time before moving to Vaitolahti-Kalastajasaarenno-Fiskerhalvøya. She came to Vaitolahti via Norway. 

 

 

Gmail - Sukututkimus_PUDASJÄRVI.pdf Gmail - Sukututkimus_RAUNA.pdf Gmail - Sukututkimus_SIMO.pdf

[Harald Korneliussen]

I tried looking for the last name in Norway, it is present in Alta and Vardø, no surprise there as there were many Finnish immigrants there. It's also mentioned that some of them were from Simo.

 

Yes, I've seen many times that immigration authorities just assumed the last place they lived was where they were from. But even though they were wrong in Mikko's case, they may have been accidentally right in Hilda's. If she is from Norway though, she's clearly recorded with a different name than Lammassaari.

 

There is one Hilda born 25.05.1887, and she is interesting enough to look deeper into. When I go by just a name and a date, to guard against just fooling myself with coincidences, I look at the dates immediately before and after. If I find any equally good candidates there, I know such candidates aren't rare. But this one, Hilda Trasti, really looks a good deal more like your ancestor than coincidence suggests. She is Finnish, and there's something odd about her family situation. Notice that she is maid (tjenestepike) for a Finnish family, but this family also has a foster child with the same last name as her, Johan Trasti. She has an exact date and location given for her birth, but no Hilda is born on that date, and no Hilda is born anytime near that year to any of the Trastis.

 

Neither can I find a Hilda Trasti in the 1900 or 1891 censuses, both of which she should normally have been in if she was born where the 1910 census says.  I wondered if Johan might be her little brother, so I tried finding her with the help of him. And him I can find more about ... but it's very confusing. I think his mother, which is called Trasti in the birth record (and father is unknown!) may be the same as the maid who is listed as supporting him in the 1900 census, and she is called Tærvaniemi. There is a Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi born in the same years as Hilda Trasti - they are maybe the same person? If so, they've changed last name once, and it's maybe not impossible that they should do so again.

 

But it's still a very weak theory. I'm sorry about that, but these are the rabbit holes you fall into...

[Grethe Flood]

57 minutter siden, Harald Korneliussen skrev:

There is a Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi born in the same years as Hilda Trasti

 

Here is the confirmation record for Hilda Gustava in 1902 - see entry no. 32

Finnmark county, Sør-Varanger in Sør-Varanger, Parish register (official) no. 4 (1891-1908), Confirmation 1903, Page 166
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/4333/164

 

Johan Tervaniemi dies in 1905:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/267/pg00000006078957

https://www.geni.com/people/Johan-Rautiola/6000000067129945920

 

Endret Mai 10 av Grethe Flood

[Harald Korneliussen]

The birth date of Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi doesn't match our Hilda, which wouldn't be a big deal except it's what set me off on this chase in the first place.

 

However, we do get a patronym for Hilda Gustava's mom. And with that it may get easier to puzzle together some more pieces. That let me combine some obvious references to her on histreg, and with that we can see that her husband also used the name Trasti sometimes! So maybe Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi IS Hilda Trasti after all?

They were also clearly Kola Norwegians (or Kola Kvens?) as they're often listed as residing in Russia.

[Harald Korneliussen]

But it seems Johan Trasti and Johan Tærvaniemi is two different people after all, I find two separate marriages.

 

Never mind, it's the same marriage event.

Endret Mai 10 av Harald Korneliussen

[Harald Korneliussen]

Histreg chose a bad moment to break 😕 The source lists don't appear, and if I'm logged in I get PHP error messages.

[Dmitri]

1 time siden, Harald Korneliussen skrev:

The birth date of Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi doesn't match our Hilda, which wouldn't be a big deal except it's what set me off on this chase in the first place.

 

However, we do get a patronym for Hilda Gustava's mom. And with that it may get easier to puzzle together some more pieces. That let me combine some obvious references to her on histreg, and with that we can see that her husband also used the name Trasti sometimes! So maybe Hilda Gustava Tærvaniemi IS Hilda Trasti after all?

They were also clearly Kola Norwegians (or Kola Kvens?) as they're often listed as residing in Russia.

Historical Background:
Mikko Muhos - Hilda's husband was Finnish and his father was Finnish. I have personally been to the cemetery to see the grave of Mikko Muhos' parents. On the monument it says that his father Petter Muhos was a farmer. Also I saw the will it says that he was a shareholder - Kymi Oy=UPM Kymmene.
There is no information about Hilda Lammassaari, but her son said that his mother was born in Canada, but that is just hearsay. He was a teenager when his mother died.

[Anton Hagelee]

11 hours ago, Dmitri said:

Hello, Anton!
Thank you for the information.
Are there any sites where I could look up those born in 1887 in Canada? 

 

Not on Ancestry.com and not to my knowledge anywhere  online for free. There might be sites such as MyHeritage a subscription site that has some records but it is difficult to determine what birth records are on those sites. Most Canadian birth records are kept by the various provinces but not online as near as I can tell. 

 

 

[Dmitri]

21 minutter siden, Anton Hagelee skrev:

 

Not on Ancestry.com and not to my knowledge anywhere  online for free. There might be sites such as MyHeritage a subscription site that has some records but it is difficult to determine what birth records are on those sites. Most Canadian birth records are kept by the various provinces but not online as near as I can tell. 

 

 

Thank you for the information. 

[Anton Hagelee]

Not easy to find information on this family. But here is what I find on Ancestry.com.

 

Petter Muhos

in the Finland, Communion Books, 1670-1917

NamePetter MuhosBirth Date03 maalis 1854 (3 Mar 1854)Confirmation PlacePielaveden seurakunta, Joensuun maakunta, Suomi (Finland)Residence PlaceSaarela, Suomi (Finland)Relation to HeadDreng (Boy)Volume Year Range1866-1875

Household Members (Name)Relation to Head

Petter MuhosDreng (Boy)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/12562353:61627?tid=&pid=&queryId=027f5b2c-8cbe-4398-99b8-d16e5666f227&_phsrc=zIF1&_phstart=successSource

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

[Anton Hagelee]

Same information on Familysearch.com

 

Petter Muhos

Census • Finland, Church Census and Pre-Confirmation Books, 1657-1915

 

Name	Petter Muhos
Birth Date	3. maaliskuuta 1854
Event Type	Census
Event Date	vuodesta 1866 vuoteen 1875
Event Place	Saarela, Pielavesi, Kuopio, Finland
Page Number	705
Affiliate Publication Number	0025172808   https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLKM-5PJB

 

 

Petter Muhos

Census • Finland, Tax Lists, 1809-1915

 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NQZ-4YTH

 

 

Endret Mai 10 av Anton Hagelee

[Dmitri]

På 11.5.2024 den 0.44, Anton Hagelee skrev:

Same information on Familysearch.com

 

Petter Muhos

Census • Finland, Church Census and Pre-Confirmation Books, 1657-1915

 

Name	Petter Muhos
Birth Date	3. maaliskuuta 1854
Event Type	Census
Event Date	vuodesta 1866 vuoteen 1875
Event Place	Saarela, Pielavesi, Kuopio, Finland
Page Number	705
Affiliate Publication Number	0025172808   https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLKM-5PJB

 

 

Petter Muhos

Census • Finland, Tax Lists, 1809-1915

 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NQZ-4YTH

 

 

Hello, Anton!
Thank you for the information.
I also found the 1926 census in the national archive (attached).
I know a lot about the Mukhos family.
I still have a question where was Hilda Lammaassaari born

(a very difficult and yet very important question for me)?

Thank you!

Regards,

Dmitri

 

 

[Dmitri]

På 10.5.2024 den 18.37, Harald Korneliussen skrev:

Histreg chose a bad moment to break 😕 The source lists don't appear, and if I'm logged in I get PHP error messages.

Hello, Harald!

Can you please tell me if there is any information from tax authorities in the archives? The question is this.
My grandfather Mikko Muhos 01.10.1882 worked:
- in 1914 in the coal mines of Spitsbergen as a miner (presumably "Tronhjem Spitsbergen Kulkokompani" or "Store Norske";
- in 1915-1916 in the city of Christiania (Oslo) as a bricklayer.
Is it possible to get information from the archives of companies, namely a certificate of place of work or information from the archives of tax authorities (back in the day, they paid taxes, too)?

P.S.:addressed to the archive with this question, but unfortunately it is not in their competence (letter with their recommendations in the attachment).

 

Regards,

Dmitri

Gmail - Sak AVS-24-05 00153_ _Re_ Epost fra Arkivverket_.pdf

[Harald Korneliussen]

Taking a quick look at the sources, employee lists for "Store Norske" on Spitsbergen have been scanned. However, not for the period your grandfather worked there, and sadly what has been scanned has the most recent data in the 1950s, which means we don't get access to any of it 😕

 

In Oslo, though, there is some scant hope... there were in fact municipial censuses for both 1915 and 1916, and they have been scanned, but not transcribed and made searchable yet. In all likelihood your grandfather is in there somewhere, but without a street address or something, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.