Land Transfer Question

[Harold Legreid]

I would like to know why my aunt's land was taken from her?

My  grandfather fathered a daughter in 1891. He moved to the US. In 1901 he returned and for whatever reason the daughter and unmarried mother did not return with him.

He was the oldest and only son. In 1913 my grandfather's Mother turned the land/farm over to the daughter. Over the next few years the land was taken from the girl and eventually ended up in a different family.

Are there court records telling of this?

Any help would be appreciated. Not expecting to get the land/farm back just interested in how this all transpired.

Thanks.

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

Wellcome to the forum.

 

All deeds (transfer of real estate) are recorded in a registry.

You just have to know which property:  municipality, name/number, ("gardsnummer" and "bruksnummer")  -  which may be a challenge.

 

By the way, nice if you use your full name: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

[Harold Legreid]

The property is in Eidfjord/Laegreid Farm # 5. Gundhild Brimis Laegreid gave/sold to Brita Anna's Daughter---Maybe Anna Baersdaughter and Gunder Helgeson Laegreid's illigitimate daugther.  The land/farm then became the property of Johnas Bu---how. Why did Brita loose it. Thanks. Harold

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

In 1906, Gardsnummer 5 Lægreid had 29 "bruk" (holdings, units, i.e. different properties).

You can see the names of holders or owners here: https://www.nb.no/items/7987486404c336367dd1cd170fc47c8e?page=495

(for Norwegian IP addresses) or in the exerpts below.

 

[Jon Sværen]

4 timer siden, Ivar S. Ertesvåg skrev:

Wellcome to the forum.

 

All deeds (transfer of real estate) are recorded in a registry.

You just have to know which property:  municipality, name/number, ("gardsnummer" and "bruksnummer")  -  which may be a challenge.

 

By the way, nice if you use your full name: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/content/change-display-name

Ivar !

 

Du vel å svara Harold, sjølv om Harold gir «blanke blaffen» i det som kreves i ein debatt på DA: Fullt navn. 

Med 8.200 innlegg er du ein veteran, Ivar. Ikkje la dette værta ein vane; å svara på han/ho som «drit» i DA sine «regler».

[Harold Legreid]

The land in question is the land owned by Helge Hansen-#13. I am having trouble getting logged back in to add my last name. Legreid.

I do not speak Norge and have not figured Google Translate out yet. 

I am really appreciating the replies, sorry I cannot read them.

Harold Legreid. Helge was my Grandfather-Gunder's father who migrated to North Dakota, USA. 

I recently spent time in Edifjord, what a beautiful city. I am now on the Viking cruise heading to souther Europe. 

[Harold Legreid]

I think I have added my last name-sorry that I did not understand that was required.

[Anton Hagelee]

32 minutes ago, Harold Legreid said:

I do not speak Norge and have not figured Google Translate out yet. 

I am really appreciating the replies, sorry I cannot read them.

 

Not to worry Harold, the reply from  Jon Sværen was Jon chastising Ivar S. Ertesvåg for not asking you to use your full name. Although it looks to me like Ivar did ask you to use your full name in his first reply but maybe not fast enough for Jon?. Anyway Ivar is one of the most helpful posters on this site and he has aided me several times when I have posted questions about my Norway ancestors. Keep on posting Ivar you're one of the best. 

[Gunnar Sigdestad]

Det aktuelle panteregisteret.

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, SAB/A-2501/2/2A/2Aa/L0016: Panteregister nr. II.A.a.16, 1800-1935, s. 102
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20071213610107
 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

Welcome as yourself.

Gunnar has found the right mortgage register.  Some relevant transfers are

 

No.10: "Skjøte" (transfer) from Hans Helgeson to son Helge Hansson 1862

No.15: "Skylddeling" (Separation) of two parts, new bnr ("bruksnummer", holding No) 25 and 26, 1900

These parts are 7 and 10 "øre" (out of 272)

No.19: "Skylddeling" of new bnr. 34, 1 øre (out of 255) - this must be ground for a house, not much more.

No.20 "Skjøte" from Gunhild Gunnarsdtr Lægreid til Brita Gunnarsdtr Lægreid for kr. 3000 and "kaar" (accommodation and support) 1913

First written "mangler hjemmel"(lacks lawful title), this is crossed out with the remark

"Attest om at Gunhild Gunnarsdtr sat i uskiftet bo efter manden Helge Hansson af 21/1 tgl. 8/2 1919"

(testimonial that G.G. sits in undivided estate after her husband H.H. of 21 Jan., registered 8 Feb 1919)

No. 22: "Odelsskjøte fra Brite Gunnarsdtr til Gjøri Helgesdtr for kr. 15400, 1915

"Odel" is translated to "allodial right" in a dictionary.  It means that the buyer has an inherited right of owning the land.

No.24: "Skylddeling" of new bnr.36, 30 øre (out of 254), 1918.

No.25: "Skjøte" from Gjøri Helgesdt til Johannes Gjermundson Bu for kr. 5000 and "kaar"

 

This is a registry of the deeds. Each deed in full text is copied into the "Pantebok", which is referenced in the 3rd column

(only the sheet ("folium") number, the volume has to be deduced from the year). The "Pantebok" is also available at

Digitalarkivet.

 

I am not sure about the family relations here.  Gunhild was Helge's wife, and he was dead by 1913.

Brite's relation is unclear (Gunhild's sister?? - or just coincidence of fathers names?)

Gjøri have to be related to Helge, thus "odel".  Daughter? fathers sister?

The full text may include birth date of the involved persons and their relations.

 

The documents tell about the transfers, but hardly answer the "why?".

 

 

 

[Harold Legreid]

First off, I would like to thank everyone for the vast amount of Information. I also want to thank everyone for sending the information in English, I apologize that I do not write or speak in Norsk.

Brita was the illegitimate daughter born in 1891. Gunder the only son of Helge and Gunhild, left Norway in  1891 and  came back to Norway for 6 months in 1901, we assume to persuade Brita's Mother and Brita to come back with him, he was unsuccessful. 

Gyri was Gunder's only sister and never married. We were under the impression that she had the right to live in the house until she died in 1929.

Brita moved into a little, little house in about 1913-1915 from the land being researched.

I am looking for suggestions on how to find the answers to these questions?

If Gunhild transferred the land to Brita her grandaughter, why did it go to Gyri and why did Brita left to live in a tiny shed with her Mother. Would the documents answer some of these questions. We speculate that the fact the Brita was illegitimate?

If I understand correctly Gyri sold to Johannes Bu for 5000 Kr and maybe at that time the transfer stated Gyri could live there until death? The Bu family has the farm today.

Thanks again.

Harold

 

 

[Harold Legreid]

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Posted just now

First off, I would like to thank everyone for the vast amount of Information. I also want to thank everyone for sending the information in English, I apologize that I do not write or speak in Norsk.

Brita was the illegitimate daughter born in 1891. Gunder the only son of Helge and Gunhild, left Norway in  1891 and  came back to Norway for 6 months in 1901, we assume to persuade Brita's Mother and Brita to come back with him, he was unsuccessful. 

Gyri was Gunder's only sister and never married. We were under the impression that she had the right to live in the house until she died in 1929.

Brita moved into a little, little house in about 1913-1915 from the land being researched.

I am looking for suggestions on how to find the answers to these questions?

If Gunhild transferred the land to Brita her grandaughter, why did it go to Gyri and why did Brita left to live in a tiny shed with her Mother. Would the documents answer some of these questions. We speculate that the fact the Brita was illegitimate?

If I understand correctly Gyri sold to Johannes Bu for 5000 Kr and maybe at that time the transfer stated Gyri could live there until death? The Bu family has the farm today.

Thanks again.

Harold

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

"Pantebok", fol. 105, "ting" 14 June 1913:

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, SAB/A-2501/2/2B/2Be/L0019: Pantebok nr. II.B.e.19, 1912-1915, s. 105
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20070910341016

 

Doc. No 3 (left page), "skjøte".  Gunhilda Gunnarsdtr Lægreid transfers to Brita Gundersdtr her owned

land Lægreid Gnr.5 bnr 7 of "skyld 2 mark 55 øre for 3000,-  and "kaar", according to contract of 7 april this year.

The buyer takes over a loan of 1600,- and pays the remaining 1400,- cash.

 

Doc. No. 10 (bottom right) is an agreement ("Kontrakt") of 7 April

Gunhild G: Lægreid transfers ("overdrager") a piece of land ("et stykke mark" to her daughter ("til min datter") Gøri Heljesdtr. 

A small house follows, and the right to build a new house on a specified lot occupied by an elder house when

this becomes vacant. A Synva Ivarsdtr lives in this house (and will continue to do so).

Gøri is to pay a yearly fee of 4 kroner.  Thus, this is a rent (feste), not a sale.

Gunhild has the right to live in the (main) house.

 

This deed is also listed in the registry (No. 21);  although I did not include it above.  It is referred to as a "feste" (rent).

 

It seems a bit confusing ...  Notice for that the documents within one "ting"-session are not chronological.

It seems that, first Gunhild rents a part of the estate to her daughter Gøri, and have this contract registered ("tinglyst", abbreviated "tgl.")

-meaning that it is valid also for later owners.  Then she sells the estate to Brita.

Brita is not identified with relation (nor is Synva).

 

Endret September 12 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

"Pantebok" fol. 61, ting 12 Oct 1915

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, AV/SAB-A-2501/2/2B/2Be/L0020: Pantebok nr. II.B.e.20, 1915-1917, s. 62
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20070910350063

 

Doc. NO .3 (left): "Skjøde grundet paa odelsløsning " (... due to redemption of allodial land)

from Brita Gundersdatter Lægreid to Gøri Helgesdatter Lægreid , gnr. 5 bnr. 13.

Price by assessment ("takst") 15000,- 

The procedures for redemption of allodial land included an assessment ("takst") by an independent committee.

 

Apparently, Gøri's had allodial right before Brita. Gunnar, as the son, had the first "odel", before sisters (Gøri).

Also Gunnars legitimate children would go before his sisters.

However, if Brita was Gunnar's illegitimate daughter, she did not inherit Gunnar and got no part in his "odel" line.

Thus, Gøri could claim her right, provided that she was able to raise the money.

Gøri borrowed 15500,- at the same time (No.23 in the registry).

 

Lack of ability to pay the mortgage could be the reason why she sold the estate in 1919.

[Harold Legreid]

Great Information, thanks. Might you have time to look at the contract in 1919, did Bu allow Gyri to live there until her death as part of the agreement?

This information that you have found really has cleared up alot of thoughts that our family has had over the years.

 

If you are intrerested.

Gunder (Gunner) came back to the USA and started a family, he was my grandfather.

In 1975 we found that Brita had a family here in Norway. We have become very close. We often wondered way Brita did not get the farm, then this family. I think I know why now. Thanks.

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

5 timer siden, Harold Legreid skrev:

• If I understand correctly Gyri sold to Johannes Bu for 5000 Kr and maybe at that time the transfer stated Gyri could live there until death?

Gyri had "kaar" according to the registry - which means residence for lifetime

 

Pantebok, 26 Apr 1919, fol. 123

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, AV/SAB-A-2501/2/2B/2Be/L0021: Pantebok nr. II.B.e.21, 1917-1927, s. 123
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20070910350427

 

No.2 is "Skjøte" from Gjøri Helgesdtr Lægreid to Johannes Gjermundson Bu  for Lægreid gnr. 5 bnr. 13 for 5000,- kroner.

No.3 (reverse side) is "Føderaadskontrakt" (= "kaar") from Johannes Gjermundson Bu to Gjøri Helgesdtr Lægreid

for lifetime as long as she is single. The contract includes yearly specified provisions. It does not mention housing specifically,

However, if electric light is installed on the farm, this should also be installed in Gjøri's rooms.

 

Pantebok, 8 Febr. 1919

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, AV/SAB-A-2501/2/2B/2Be/L0021: Pantebok nr. II.B.e.21, 1917-1927, s. 119
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20070910350423

 

No. 4, attestation that Gunhild Gunnarsdtr Lægreid was married to Helge Hansson, who in his time had the estate

of Lægreid gnr 5 brn.13. The couple had 2 children together, namely Gunnar Helgeson, now 48 in America, and Gøri Helgesdtr

50 years, living at Lægreid. Helge Hanson died in 1909 and his widow, Gunhild Gunnarsdtr remained in undivided estate

until her death on 27 Jan 1914.  Attestation issued by the "lensmann" (police), dated 21 Jan 1919 (presumably, the age of Gunnar

and Gøri applies to this date).

 

No.5, attestation that Gunhild Gunnarsdtr Lægreid, who had "kaar" at Lægreid gnr.5 bnr.13 according to contract of 14 Jun 1913, 

had passed away on27 Jan 1914, thereby terminating the "kaar". Attestation by "lensmann".

 

No.6 and 7, attestation that Lars Andersen (No.6) and Sjur Larsson Opdal (No.7), who each hired (had "feste" for) a "husmannsplass"

under Lægreid gnr.5 bnr.13,  have long time since passed away, whereby their contracts are terminated. Attestations by "lensmann".

 

These documents appear to "clear the ground" for a new owner, as they legally terminate registered obligations for the owner of the estate.

As far as I can see, Brita's contract with Gunhild (1913) seems still to be valid.

 

The varying value of the estate (3000,-  15000,- 5000,-) may partly reflect uncertain times around WWI. It may also reflect

different obligations for "kaar" (Gunhild, Gøri) and Brita's contract.  If Gøri was 50 in 1919, it could be a long-lasting obligation.

Also Brita's fee was fixed in the registered contract. With inflation, this could potentially turn out to be expensive for the owner.

 

[Roy-Petter Askim]

 

 

36 minutter siden, Ivar S. Ertesvåg skrev:

The varying value of the estate (3000,-  15000,- 5000,-)

 

Seems to be a bit more here unless I missunderstand this:

 

In 1915 Johs. G. Bu raised the full amount 15 500 with security in his own farm Sjøgaren in Ullensvang https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/13101/62 and lends them same day to Gøri.  Deed for Lægereid (Folio 89b, left, no. 9) https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/12334/91 where it also says repaid in full 05.04.1919, (Left no. 4) https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/12335/123, but Johs. G Bu keeps Sjøgarden, and later transferred to his son, and that farm still carries the loan. So in fact he paid 15500+5000+value of “kaar”.

 

1918 The new GBnr. 36 she sold (for 2000kr) was also assisted by Johs. G. Bu .

 

Looks like a partnership to use Gøri’s “odel” to get the farm , her benefit being the 5000 she received a few years later and “kaar”?

 

Census 1920 lives in the same house: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01074003000609 where she according to the contract had the minor living room and a room upstairs with sloping ceiling in the main house.

 

She died 04.03.1928 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/433/pc00000004400185 police protocol: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/90666/10  No 7 Kårpige Gjøri, 1 brother Guner? Helgesen in America.  Executor of last will? Johs. G Bu.

 

 

 

 

Endret September 12 av Roy-Petter Askim

[Harold Legreid]

Extremely interesting. I find that the debt is of interest. Helge the father received from his father in 1862. Yet in 1915-1919 there was all this debt. Why was Gyori having to receive this money and if she had debt why? Maybe times were tough then and she had to borrow money to live. More questions I guess. Are mortgages recorded back then and are they on the internet?

I have no idea who the fellow was that lived with her---hired man, boy friend. I do not think he was a relative.  Someone had to help  her with the farm.

Thanks to all. Tusen In Tak

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

4 timer siden, Roy-Petter Askim skrev:

Seems to be a bit more here unless I missunderstand this:

 

In 1915 Johs. G. Bu raised the full amount 15 500 with security in his own farm Sjøgaren in Ullensvang https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/13101/62 and lends them same day to Gøri.  Deed for Lægereid (Folio 89b, left, no. 9) https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/12334/91 where it also says repaid in full 05.04.1919, (Left no. 4) https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/12335/123, but Johs. G Bu keeps Sjøgarden, and later transferred to his son, and that farm still carries the loan. So in fact he paid 15500+5000+value of “kaar”.

 

1918 The new GBnr. 36 she sold (for 2000kr) was also assisted by Johs. G. Bu .

 

Looks like a partnership to use Gøri’s “odel” to get the farm , her benefit being the 5000 she received a few years later and “kaar”?

 

There are probably more details that can be discovered.

BTW, bnr. 36 was not sold for 2000 kr, but for 2000 kr for each of 16.2 "maal" (1000 m2), total of 32400, of which 25000 was paid cash and the remainin loan.

Hardanger og Voss sorenskriveri, AV/SAB-A-2501/2/2A/2Aa/L0016: Panteregister nr. II.A.a.16, 1800-1935, s. 125
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/tl20071213610130

 

Checking "Gards- og ættesoge for Eidfjord"

reveals that Johannes bu was 1st cousin of Gøri/Gyrid (and Gunnar). His mother was Brita Hansdotter (1845-1922), sister to Helge.

According to the author, Gyrid bought the estate for Johannes. 

I am not sure about the "odel" rules for Johannes, who is also in the line, but perhaps to far.  There is a brother Jon (1851, to USA 1874 - not more known

to the author) and an elder sister Marta (1835-), between Gyrid (Helge) and Brita. I did not check whether Brita had other children than Johannes.

 

For Norwegian ip addresses:  https://www.nb.no/items/9ff1c433b771ebf7e2bc5e232ad8c541?page=141

Endret September 12 av Ivar S. Ertesvåg

[Harold Legreid]

Again, I find this very informative. A bit of a surprise. My little town in the USA had many from the Eidfjord area. One lady who lived there was Julia Bu, maybe she was a descendent of  the Bu family you mentioned. 

We never imagined that Helge was the connection to Johnnes.

After Gunhild died it looks like Brita the illegitimate daughter was pushed out and Gyri and Johannes teamed up. 

I think I could understand this. Gyri was getting older, was by herself. She could sell the farm to Johnnes, insure that she had a place to live until she dies, also maybe someone to care for her. It would be like buying into a nursing home. 

I wonder if Gyri had a will or if probate would tell if the  money left over and if it all went to Johannes---maybe not to Brita.

I also assume that when the farm was sold that none of the money went to the brother in the US?

My DAD said he recalls that his parents discussed trouble in Norway-maybe when Gyri died. Grandpa  may have been concerned if the illegitimate daughter Brita got anything. 

Fun to speculate.

Thanks for all of your help. I have learned lots from you.

I am on a Viking cruise, just arrived in Bruges, too rough so docking delayed.

Harold

[Roy-Petter Askim]

 

The police record linked to mentions a will (testament) and that Johannes is executor, following up the instructions in her last will.

 

Johannes also had “Kaar” conditions when son Jacob got the farm in 1931,  got No 36 back in 1964 .  

 

Jacob (09.01.1903-20.10.1976, wife Ragna Lægreid 27.04.1902-11.08.1986) transferred the farm 31.12.1974 (35 000) to Olaf J. Bu (09.01.1943- , Sigrid). Also on “Kaar”-conditions for Jacob&wife.

 

From 30.04.2020 (275 000) Arne Bu 10.12.1978. 

 

Enjoy your cruise, and hopefully Bruges, a wonderful city to visit!

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

The police death record

22 timer siden, Roy-Petter Askim skrev:

 police protocol: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/90666/10  No 7 Kårpige Gjøri, 1 brother Guner? Helgesen in America.  Executor of last will? Johs. G Bu.

notes that

"1 bror Guner Helgesen i Amerika. Testaments-arving Johs. G. Bu, Lofthus."  (1 brother G.H. in A.  Heir by will J.G.B [at] L.)*)

"16/3 28 testamentet til skifteretten ustemplet"  ( the will to probate court without stamp)

*) Johannes moved to Opedal, which is next to Lofthus in Ullensvang. Seems that Lofthus was sort of "town"-center in Ullensvang.

 

Apparently there was a will to Johannes' benefit.  Whether this was part of, or the entire inheritance, is not said.

(not the role of the "lensmann" and his protocol).

The "skifterett" was under the "Sorenskriver" (district judge), and there will be archive material on this case. However,

I do not think this is available at Digitalarkivet. 

There are more answers, but if you want to get the full story, I suppose you have to hire a professional investigator to go throuh

the papers in Statsarkivet in Bergen. (or learn a lot more, and do it yourself.)

Possibly, within some years, the relevant protocols and correspondance may appear in Digitalarkivet.

 

[Harold Legreid]

Ivar-I cannot thank you enough for  all of the information.

I have also had the thoughts that at some time I should hire a private investigator. I had done that in the past in the Lillihamer area for information on my Grandmother.

Ivar is that you? If not can you make a suggestion of someone who is familiar in the area?

I am on a cruise until the end of the month. When I get back to Arizona I would like to review ALL of the information that you and a few others have provided---then formulate my questions.

Ivar-my personal Email is Hlegreid@aol.com---maybe you can see that on my profile? I do have one question-Anton where are  you from in Minnesota. I had a lake home on Little McDonald outside of Perham for years, also worked for Honeywell in Golden Valley and Minneapolis for a few years.

We will visit Normandy tomorrow.

Harold

 

[Ivar S. Ertesvåg]

When I do contract work, it is in a completely different profession ...

[Richard Olsen]

On 9/11/2024 at 8:51 PM, Harold Legreid said:

I think I have added my last name-sorry that I did not understand that was required.

 

It is not! One is encouraged to use full name, but it is not a rule

 

For the Norwegians who, apparently, have difficulty reading their own language...

 

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