Difficulty tracing one of my great-grandmother's ancestry

[Richard Berg]

    One of my unsolvable mysteries concerns my grandmother Julia Olava Olsen's mother. Her mother's name was Maren Sophie Christiansdatter. She was born in about 1846, but exactly where and when has not been certain, except likely in Østfold County, Norway, for sure. As a result, I have spent countless hours browsing page after page of the church books of almost all the parishes in Østfold county. I'm trying to work my way backwards in time.

 

    So, I started with my grandmother's birth record (20 Feb 1876, in Hobøl), which notes Sigvardt Olsen and his wife Maren Sofie Christiansdatter as parents:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5757/29350/67  (Line 16) -  living in or from Hobøl.

 

    Next, I find Sigvard and Maren's marriage record (17 Apr 1869) in Hobøl parish here:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5757/29356/4  (1869 - Line 3)

 It's interesting to note her father, Christian Johannessen, is named here but not in her birth record below. She's also called "Sophie Maren." And her place of residence (birth?) is listed as "Haaböl." The record says she's 22 years old. But if the birth record I found is the correct one, she's actually had her 23rd birthday a week before. 

 

    Here's where the difficulties begin. If at age 22 on her wedding day, she would have been born between 18 Apr 1846 and 17 Apr 1847. If she was born on April 10th, she would have been a week past her 23rd birthday. There is a Maren Sophie Christiansdatter's birth record in Hobøl parish (10 Apr 1846 - üagte) here: 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/390/2488/28  (Line 23). 

Note, her father is not named as might be customary for out-of-wedlock births, but the mother's last name was Christiansdatter. Maren would possibly take her mother's surname. The young man, Samuel Samuelsen, named in the birth record, was the "task bachelor," who likely had some formal part in the baptism ceremony. But, was he the father? 

 

    Then, after another big search effort, I believe I found a birth record for Maren Sophie's father, Christian Johannessen (22 Apr 1824) here in Idd parish:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/7414/37668/80  (Line 22)

This is bordering on conjecture now, but I guessed that his age would have had to be in his young twenties. 

 

Finally, I looked farther and wider to see if there was a marriage record for Christian Johannessen and Thrine Christiansdatter (Maren's mother). I found this (17 Jun 1846, in Østre Toten):

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8954/43676/24  (Line 27)

The woman is Catrine/Katrine/(Thrine?) Christiansdatter. In a romantic vein, I'm trying very hard to make Christian Johannessen an honest man by marrying the woman who had is illegitimate daughter, if that was the case. Perhaps he's only a step-father. Besides, Østre Toten is a long, long way from Hobøl. It would be a tough journey with a two-month old. I'm not even certain this is the right woman.

 

This is where I'm at. I would like some help verifying that I've got the right birth record for my great-grandmother Maren Sophie Christiansdatter. Any more help tracing her father and mother would be appreciated. I'm pretty easily able to follow any good hints. Sorry for the long essay here!

 

Thanks.

Dick

 

[Jackie K Marler]

Okay how do you know what you know about your grandma Julia Olava?

[Jackie K Marler]

So this is Julia Olava's "birth family" in the 1875 census?

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052028000624

 

Here she is in the 1891 census living with one of her siblings:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052721030502

 

karl Anton birth baptism #16:

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 52
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070298

 

Karl Anton's confirmation record #33

Grønland prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10848/F/Fa/L0008: Parish register (official) no. 8, 1881-1893, p. 85
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060929020077

 

After 1891 did Karl Anton come to America? Here is an intriguing death record:

"Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1871-1998", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M6-TDHB : Sat Mar 09 15:57:24 UTC 2024), Entry for Karl Stembol and Sigward Stembol, 31 Jul 1963.

 

The fellow from the Illinois death record living in Norway with his spouse and children in 1900 census:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037045141949

 

Leaving Norway for Chicago in 1904, here characterized as Karl Anton Olsen Stembol:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000551887

He also left with his wife and children.

 

Landing in Boston 1904 heading to brother-in-law Emil T. Berg in Chicago:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YWM-27F?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A2361-LC8&action=view&cc=1923995

 

and to uncle Emil Berg:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YWM-KRZ?view=index&action=view&cc=1923995

 

This Karl Anton celebrating his 50th wedding anniversary reported in Muskegon Chronicle, Muskegon Mich, Wed 5 Nov 1941 page 14 (or page 1 second section) col 3:

 

#144 marriage:

Johannes prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10852/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. 4, 1883-1907, s. 126
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060929040543

 

 

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Okay, the Maren Sophie who was a Samuelsdatter died at less than a year old #6:

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. I 3, 1842-1864, s. 334
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030633

 

There is another Maren Sophie b 1846 #29:

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. I 3, 1842-1864, s. 30
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030346

 

Endret Oktober 13 av Jackie K Marler

[Ellen Fakset]

A couple of comments:

 

In 1869, 22 years old should be interpreted as 22-ish.

 

Christiansdatter was not a last/surname, it was a patronym.  One can usually assume that her father was called Christian. In any case the father of Maren Sophie, daughter of Thrine Christiansdatter, was Samuel Samuelsen.  And it looks as if she died as an infant: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/390/320 (line 6)

 

- which Jackie has already mentioned...

Endret Oktober 13 av Ellen Fakset

[Anne_Tonby]

Maren Sophie born 8/5 1846 and baptised 31/5 1846

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. I 3, 1842-1864, s. 30
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030346

 

Maren Sophies confirmation 1862 in Spydeberg

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 173
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040796

 

Her sister Karoline Augusta born 1854 in Spydeberg

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 63
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040699

 

[Jackie K Marler]

And it looks like Julia Olava wasn't the first with that name in the family #20:

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 43
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070288

 

And here the mother is Maren Sofie Johansdtr.

 

#41 death of husmands child Julie Olava Sigvartsdtr 1875

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Parish register (official) no. I 4, 1865-1877, p. 182
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070392

 

Interesting she is living at Haabolsplads at her death, same address / farm as Ole Thorvald.

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

43 minutes ago, Anne_Tonby said:

Maren Sophie born 8/5 1846 and baptised 31/5 1846

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. I 3, 1842-1864, s. 30
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030346

 

Maren Sophies confirmation 1862 in Spydeberg

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 173
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040796

 

Her sister Karoline Augusta born 1854 in Spydeberg

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 63
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040699

 

Johan Chrisitiansen, wife and daughter Maren Sophie here as Johansdatter moved into Spydeberg #30-32

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 266
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040876

 

Here is Maren Sophie as Johansdtr in 1865 census working in Spydeberg:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037992000983

 

Maren Sophie Johansdtr going back to Hobol # 74 right hand pg Nov 1867:

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0006: Parish register (official) no. I 6, 1863-1874, p. 208
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316030164

 

 

Endret Oktober 13 av Jackie K Marler

[Anton Hagelee]

1 hour ago, Anne_Tonby said:

Her sister Karoline Augusta born 1854 in Spydeberg

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1842-1862, s. 63
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040699

 

Kanskje Carolina i 1865 FT?

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037992001219

 

Sannsynligvis Carolina i 1875 FT?

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052028000441

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Sannsynligvis ekteskapet?

 

Johan Christiansen

in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

NameJohan Christiansen

GenderMale

Age22

Birth Date1823

Marriage Date13. nov 1845 (13 Nov 1845)

Marriage PlaceHobol,Ostfold,Norway

FatherChristian Christensen

SpouseAnne Marie Pettersdr

FHL Film Number255776

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/4415055:60095?tid=&pid=&queryid=b59eee70-a89f-4471-8d14-

03dac185cdaf&_phsrc=XIc3&_phstart=successSource

 

Nr 10 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030607

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/327/pv00000009752009

 

 

 

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Anne Marie Pettersdr

in the Norway, Select Marriages, 1660-1926

NameAnne Marie Pettersdr[Anne Marie Juulsen]

GenderFemale

Age21

Birth Date1824

Marriage Date13. nov 1845 (13 Nov 1845)

Marriage PlaceHobol,Ostfold,Norway

FatherPetter Juulsen

SpouseJohan Christiansen

FHL Film Number255776

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/4415057:60095

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

#25 birth baptism Ole Thorvald

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 59
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070305

 

Mother's name: Johansd crossed out and replaced by Christians

Also interesting a Caroline Johansdatter is faddere:

 

Lise and Robert Bakken are likely this couple from the 1865 census:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01038003000517

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Sigvart Olsen in 1865 census:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01038003000562

[Richard Berg]

Thank you all for your many responses to my inquiry. But I don't know where to begin my reply - there's so much to talk about.

 

First of all, thank you, Ellen, for your gentle reminder about the difference between surnames and patronymic names. I understand the difference - I was not careful in the way I talked about that. And making the change from one style to the other occurred at different times in different families/parishes as the 19th century proceeded. 

 

So, Regarding Samuel Samuelsen, I had already seen the various church records for Maren Sophie Samuelsdatter's birth, short life and death. This is not the Maren Sophie of my family, whose last name, according to her marriage record ( https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5757/29350/67 ) was Christiansdatter. Besides, Maren went on to have (at least) three children - my grandmother Julia, and two sons, Karl and Ole. Julia also had a half-brother, Josef Sverre Olsen. My Maren did not die at the age of 2-1/2.

 

Jackie, thank you so much for your extensive researching. My grandmother, though born in Norway in 1876, emigrated to the US in 1893. She married my grandfather Emil Berggren (who had emigrated from Stockholm) in 1899 in Chicago. She died in Chicago in April, 1960. I was born in Chicago in 1942. I knew my grandmother well. I also knew her brother Karl; He was known here as Karl Stembol. Ole, of course, died as a toddler. If Maren and Sigvard had more children, I have not located them.  I found a death record for Maren (Trefoldighet prestekontor Kirkebøker: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5829/29719/66), but I'm not certain it's hers in fact.

 

Most of the appropriate records you've cited I've already incorporated in my family tree. Your note about Karl and "Sigward" is interesting. Yes, of course, Karl, his wife Caroline Jensen, and their five children (all born in Norway) emigrated to the US in 1904. Mt. Olive Cemetery, in Chicago, is where most of my relatives from that branch of the family tree are buried. 

 

The "Maren Sophie" in this record you cited ( https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060329030346 ) is not my family's Maren Sophie. This one would be named Johansdatter (as mentioned by others in this thread). Mine was named Christiansdatter. And, thus, the Julia Olava you cite here ( https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070288 ) is not my family either. The notes about moving from Hobøl to Spydeberg and back are interesting, but again I think do not pertain to my family. However, your mention of "migration" is a really good hint for me to follow up on. I have not at all tried to trace the movements of my ancestors from one place to another, except for emigration to the US. 

 

And here is the death record for Ole Thorvald ( Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5757/29348/20  Line 6 )

 

Anne, thank you, too, for responding. The birth record you referenced is for Maren Sophie Johansdatter, who is not Maren Sophie Christiansdatter. The confirmation and birth records you mentioned are right for that family but not for mine. 

 

Finally, I appreciate your notes, too, Anton, but its the wrong family. Thank you for taking the time to do some research on my behalf. 

 

As a teenager, I knew nothing about genealogy. Sixty-five years later, I am so regretful for not having developed this interest until after my parents, their parents, and all my aunts and uncles had passed. I could have learned so much. I have some (by now) vague memories of hearing about my ancestors, but it's not helpful anymore. So I now do the best I can, thankful for online resources of such detail that chasing paper trails 30 years ago could never have outdone. 

 

I'm still kinda stuck on who is Maren Sophie/Sofie Christiansdatter, and who are her ancestors. I will look into the "in to" and "moved from" parish records.

 

Here is a view of this leg of my family tree (as seen in Ancestry.com). If you copy this to your desktop you may be able to enlarge it into some kind of readable image.

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Thanks for response Richard.  However, I will defend the finds on the Maren Sophie who was the child of Johan Christiansen.  I strongly believe that she is the person you are seeking.  Since you still have questions about Maren, don't reject this flatly, keep it in mind until you have satisfied your doubts on your original research.

 

There are numerous times the pastor / or clerk will mess up the one single detail versus a mountain of other details, one primary piece of information which is not supported with any regularity elsewhere vs a mountain of circumstantial evidence.  Have you ever seen the TV show Cold Justice with Kelly Siegler?  She often illustrates that circumstantial evidence can build substantive cases, using a bunch of pencils.  Each pencil by itself (meaning each fact) is easily broken but when you add pencil to pencil holding them together with relationship to the others, you cannot break them.

 

So how many Sigvart Olsens are found in Hobol?

In the 1865 census there were only two of every age one born 1841 and the other born 1848:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&m[]=0138&firstname=sigvard&lastname=ols*&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

 

Using the indexing available at the Digitalarkivet for any Sigvart Olsen as father between 1865-1885 counts 5: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&m[]=0138&firstname=sigvard&lastname=ols*&roles[]=far&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=1869&event_year_to=1885&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

Four of the births are to a mother named Maren Sophie, one as Johansdatter direct, one as Johansdtr corrected and two as Christiansdatter.

 

Sigvart Olsen in Hobol 1865-1885 as groom?

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&m[]=0138&firstname=sigvard&lastname=ols*&roles[]=brudgom&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=1865&event_year_to=1885&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

Only one to a Maren Sophie listed as Christiansdatter and father as Christian Johannesen

 

In the 1875 Hobol census there are two one born 1867 and the other born 1848:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=5&m[]=0138&firstname=sigvard&lastname=ols*&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

 

 

 

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

A Josef Sverre Olson b 1885 is in this family in the 1891 census:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052721068538

 

#40 Hilda Alette birth baptism

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 50
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070296

 

#5 1870 1st marriage of 2nd wife ? of Sigvart Olsen:

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 152
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070363

 

#51 1881 2nd marriage for each Julie Peders* and Sigvart Ols:

Kampen prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10853/F/Fa/L0002: Ministerialbok nr. I 2, 1880-1888, s. 65
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921050413

 

 

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

Hi, Jackie, 

Thanks for all of this. I'm not rejecting anything out of hand. And I am certainly aware of how ministers and secretaries over the years can misspell or mishear someone's name, certainly not purposefully, and thus record it incorrectly. On my mother's side of the family, there are Christiansdatters and Christensdatters as well, along with Christens, Christians, Kristens, Kirstens, etc., all of whom lived in and around Skien. It can be frustrating to identify the right ancestors. The challenge is part of fun, and the resolution is always so satisfying. 

 

Another general problem is that family tree builders often just adopt whatever they see in someone else's family tree (particularly on Ancestry), even when there's no obvious documentation. This is a real example for me. Twenty users on Ancestry said my g-grandfather Capt. Bergenius Johannesen died about 1880 in Oslo. He actually died Dec 3, 1871 in a sailing vessel crash on the shore at Skagen, Denmark. I am trying to go back to primary documents so my family tree is well documented.  [Johannesens on both sides of the family, too!]

 

I haven't read through your messages above very carefully, which I will do. I'm not sure what it is you're asking me to consider. I may have, of course, built an entire house of cards regarding Maren Sophie (or is it Sophie Maren...). I will post again when I've had time to think more about this.

 

Thanks, and best regards,

Dick  

Endret Oktober 14 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Another source which might be helpful re Maren Sophie is if you find an actual death for her, is a dodsfallsprotokol.  Oslo's are very complete and very early, don't know about Hobol's.  Hobol's appear to not be online for any date prior to 1883, no help there.

 

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Anne_Tonby]

Julie Olava Olsen in census 1891. She is a lodger belongin to the family, Gunerius Albert Harstad and wife Karoline Augusta

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052721030503

 

Gunerius Albert Harstad and Karoline Augusta Johansdt married 1880, nr 87

Grønland prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10848/F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. 6, 1877-1886, s. 85
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921030717

 

Karoline Augusta Johansdr is the sister of Maren Sophie Johansdt born 1846

 

[Jackie K Marler]

1 hour ago, Anne_Tonby said:

Julie Olava Olsen in census 1891. She is a lodger belongin to the family, Gunerius Albert Harstad and wife Karoline Augusta

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052721030503

 

Gunerius Albert Harstad and Karoline Augusta Johansdt married 1880, nr 87

Grønland prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10848/F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. 6, 1877-1886, s. 85
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921030717

 

Karoline Augusta Johansdr is the sister of Maren Sophie Johansdt born 1846

 

So randomly Karl Anton and Julie Olava ended up in their maternal aunt's household?

 

Not so much randomly, Karl Anton Olsen is living with them in the 1885 census of Oslo, also:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01053257083493

 

#144 Jens Magnus Harstad, the son, birth /baptism:

Østre Aker prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10840/G/Ga/L0003: Klokkerbok nr. I 3, 1868-1913, s. 107
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921010517

 

#210 Jens Magnus, the son, another birth / baptism record

Østre Aker prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10840/F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. I 5, 1879-1882, s. 96
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060929010102

 

Christiania Nyheds og Avertissemandsblad  Friday 18 Jan 1895

https://www.nb.no/items/0ce21bac59a77fb00bb9084f16e9eaed?page=0&searchText="karoline harstad"

 

 

Endret Oktober 14 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

1 hour ago, Jackie K Marler said:

Another source which might be helpful re Maren Sophie is if you find an actual death for her, is a dodsfallsprotokol.  Oslo's are very complete and very early, don't know about Hobol's.

 

 

I found the way in to these death records. Probate records will also be interesting. But there doesn't appear to be any index by person name that would save hours of eye strain looking for someone.  😞

 

[Jackie K Marler]

Here is a death of a #7 Johan Christiansen aged 41 in Feb 1865 in Spydeberg meaning roughly a birth about 1824:

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. I 6, 1863-1874, s. 166
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316030120

 

On the inmigrating record in Spydeberg for Johan Christiansen in 1850 his age was 27 so born about 1823.  Unfortunately the dodfallsprotokol were being kept by 1865 but searching didn't find a record for Johan in 1865.

 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

On 10/13/2024 at 1:34 PM, Richard Berg said:

Finally, I looked farther and wider to see if there was a marriage record for Christian Johannessen and Thrine Christiansdatter (Maren's mother). I found this (17 Jun 1846, in Østre Toten):

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8954/43676/24  (Line 27)

The woman is Catrine/Katrine/(Thrine?) Christiansdatter. In a romantic vein, I'm trying very hard to make Christian Johannessen an honest man by marrying the woman who had is illegitimate daughter, if that was the case. Perhaps he's only a step-father. Besides, Østre Toten is a long, long way from Hobøl. It would be a tough journey with a two-month old. I'm not even certain this is the right woman.

 

Am I right that you have discarded this person as a candidate for the mother of Maren Sophie?

 

Based on the data above and in your Ancestry.com Family Tree this person seems to be a very unlikely candidate. 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Deleted

 

 

Endret Oktober 15 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

There is a lot of data in the posts above. So much so that it left me a little confused. So I put together this chronology with names to see if a case can be made for Maren Sophia Johansdatter born in 1846 in Hobøl as the same person as Maren Sophia Chritiansdatter also born about 1846 in Hobøl. 

 

 

Record of Maren Sophia Johansdatter  born  1846 Hobøl.

 

Maren Sophie born 1846 Hobøl father Johan Christiansen

 

Confirmation in 1862 in Spydeberg father Johan Christiansen

 

sister Karolina Augusta born in 1854 in Spydeberg

 

Living in Spydeberg in 1865 and moving back to Hobøl in 1867

 

Record of Maren Sophia Christiansdatter born about 1846 Hobøl.

 

Married in 1869 in Hobøl, name is Sophie Maren Christensen, father is Christian Johanessen (sp?)

 

Possible birth of first Julia Olava in 1869 name is Maren Sofie Johansdatter 

 

Gave birth to Karl Anton 4 March 1871 name is Sofie Chritiansdatter

 

Gave birth to Ole Thorvold in 1873 name is Sofie Johansdatter (Johans is crossed out and Christian is written above Johans)

 

In the 1875 Census in Hobøl and is called Maren Sofie Olsen

 

Gave birth to Julia Olava in 1876 name is Maren Sofie Christiansdatter 

 

She is likely dead in the 1891 Census but her daughter and your grandmother Julia Olava is living with the family of the Karolina Augusta listed above as  the daughter of the first Maren Sophia Johansdatter and thus probably her aunt. 

 

 

Looking at the chronology above I think I am on the side of Jackie Marler and Anne Tonby. I think the two ladies are the same person. 

 

 

Endret Oktober 15 av Anton Hagelee