Difficulty tracing one of my great-grandmother's ancestry

[Jackie K Marler]

Richard, did you ever get your grandmother's death certificate?  Illinois d.c. usually contain information about the parents. 

 

This is sort of an aside on page 4 of this topic at Norway Heritage Emil T Berg and Julia Berg are mentioned: https://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6151&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=emil berg

Norway Heritage is going through a tough time right now.  On my computer, Firefox is the only browser that works with NorwayHeritage right now.  In the 1920 census a divorced woman named Alice Swanson (Swanson was her former married name) was living with them and listed as a cousin.  Do you know anything about her?  She was married twice, first to Mr. Swanson and second hsuband was named Mikkelson. 

 

Also a bit on page 8 post by Jane 😄

"...1900 US Census says Peter O Johnson born March 1851 Norway. Marriage to Caroline Sophie Larsen says his father is Johan Christiansen. So here's a candidate for birth of Peter Oluf Johansen 15 Mar 1851 with parents Johan Christiansen and Anne Marie Petersdatter.
Spydeberg, Ostfold ..."  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWGT-2X1

 

If this pans out, this might be an"invisible thread" tying your Julie to Maren Sophie Johansdatter more closely.  You will want to read all 9 pages.  The purpose of the topic was a search for Jenny Jorstad who was the 2nd wife to Peder Oluf Johanson.  Peter ended badly but you can read about that yourself.

 

Endret Oktober 15 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

The person in question is Alice P Johnson the cousin living with Emit T. Berg and Julie O Berg in the 1920 census:

[Jackie K Marler]

Here is the baptism record of a target Peter Oluf Johansen, probably the brother of Karoline Auguste and Maren Sophie:

 

The farm they resided in 1851 is the same one the Johan Christiansen who died in 1865 resided on at death.

Endret Oktober 15 av Jackie K Marler

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

15 timer siden, Richard Berg skrev:

I found the way in to these death records. Probate records will also be interesting. But there doesn't appear to be any index by person name that would save hours of eye strain looking for someone.  😞

 

 

21 timer siden, Jackie K Marler skrev:

#51 1881 2nd marriage for each Julie Peders* and Sigvart Ols:

Kampen prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10853/F/Fa/L0002: Ministerialbok nr. I 2, 1880-1888, s. 65
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921050413

 

Marriage record - column 13 right side. It seems to be a probate record Maren Sofie?

 

I can't read the first word....
The groom's first wife:  ? Sk 3/10-81. The bride's first husband: Dødsf Sk 12/10-81.

 

 

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

Sigvard Olsen died 2/10-1925:

 

#1086:

Oslo county, Oslo skifterett, Index to death register no. 25 (1925-1925), Index page
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090513350472

 

#1086:

Oslo county, Oslo skifterett, Death register no. C 13 (1925-1927), Death protocol page, Page 91
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090515360648

[Richard Berg]

2 hours ago, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

Sigvard Olsen died 2/10-1925:

 

#1086:

Oslo county, Oslo skifterett, Index to death register no. 25 (1925-1925), Index page
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090513350472

 

#1086:

Oslo county, Oslo skifterett, Death register no. C 13 (1925-1927), Death protocol page, Page 91
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090515360648

Gry:  Thanks for these links. I had not seen the civil records. I did find his Grtønland parish death record:

 

Parish registry: Grønland prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10848/F/Fa/L0019: Parish register (official) no. 19, 1918-1938, p. 125 ,  which is here:

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/25787/54962/126

 

Thanks for these tidbits.

 

Dick

[Richard Berg]

5 hours ago, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo said:

 

 

Marriage record - column 13 right side. It seems to be a probate record Maren Sofie?

 

I can't read the first word....
The groom's first wife:  ? Sk 3/10-81. The bride's first husband: Dødsf Sk 12/10-81.

 

 

Gry.  No, this is not a probate notation. The column heading translates something iike this: "If any of the brides and grooms have married before the previous marriage has been dissolved, and whether a lawful division has been held." This is just a certification that the previous marriages have been dissolved (by death in this case). The dates of October 1881 are before their wedding day of Dec 4 1881.  Probably one date each for the bride and groom? 

[Richard Berg]

On 10/13/2024 at 4:28 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

After 1891 did Karl Anton come to America? Here is an intriguing death record:

"Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1871-1998", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M6-TDHB : Sat Mar 09 15:57:24 UTC 2024), Entry for Karl Stembol and Sigward Stembol, 31 Jul 1963.

 

...

 

Leaving Norway for Chicago in 1904, here characterized as Karl Anton Olsen Stembol:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000551887

He also left with his wife and children.

 

Landing in Boston 1904 heading to brother-in-law Emil T. Berg in Chicago:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YWM-27F?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A2361-LC8&action=view&cc=1923995

 

and to uncle Emil Berg:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9YWM-KRZ?view=index&action=view&cc=1923995

 

Hi again, Jackie,

  Thank you for all these links. I agree with them all --Julia and Karl are my grandmother and grand uncle on these pages. I had already found most of these, but I had not seen the ship's manifest for Karl and family's emigration to the US. 

 

In the 1891 census, I do not know who the Harstad's are, but the place they live must be a boarding house of some sort. Julia would be about 15 at the time, which might suggest that her real mother had died by then, and she didn't want to live with her new mother anymore, whom Sigvard married in 1881. 

 

Julia's brother Karl lived to be 92. Interesting to me is that the FamilSearch record has Karl born in Hobol, Cook, Norway! It just goes to show you that people who do this kind of record transcription aren't paid enough. I don't know/haven't found out who Mabel L. Thorstensen is. ONe of the ten grandchildren?

 

 

On 10/13/2024 at 4:28 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

Alice P Johnson who is your grandparent's cousin according to them in the 1920 census. The basic facts about her according to the 1920 census, her age is 40, born Norway, she is divorced, she came to US in 1890.  

 

Alice Pauline was the child of a man named Peder Oluf Johansen and his 1st wife named Caroline Sofie Larsen and Alice was born in Oslo on 16 Jan 1879.  Here is her birth /baptism #129: Grønland prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10848/F/Fa/L0007: Parish register (official) no. 7, 1878-1888, p. 47
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060921040052

One of her faddere is a pige Caroline A Johanson, interesting.

 

Alice did come to America --headed to Chicago, actually-- with her older brother Jens Peter Sofus (in America called James) and her father Peter Johnson in 1890: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

 

Alice was first married to a man named Samuel Nicholas Swanson who was born 1876, on 17 Mar 1900 in Illinois.  Here is the data from the Illinois State Secretary of State digital archives on the marriage:

 

In the 1900 census, living with Alice and Samuel are her father Peder Johnson b Mar 1851 Norway, married for 25 years, came to US in 1880 and her brother George Johnson age 4 born Illinois.   George Olaf Alfred Johnson is actually Alice's half-brother as his mother was Ovidea Caspara Casperson, Peder Johnson's 3rd wife. "United States Census, 1900", , FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MS3V-RSL : Thu Apr 11 20:21:27 UTC 2024 , Entry for Samuel Swanson and Allice Swanson, 1900.

 

1900 was truly a horrible year for the family. 

Illinois State Register, Springfield Illinois Sunday 18 Nov 1900 page 1 col 6

 

 Alice and Samuel were married until at least 12 Sept 1918, when she is named his nearest relative on his WWI draft registration card.  By 1920 census time they are divorced.  Alice marries a second time on 29 June 1921 in Lake county, Indiana to a Walter Michelson.  Walter died in 1936.

 

Did you ever hear about Alice Pauline Michelson?  If what I think is true her father Peder Oluf Johanson is the brother of Maren Sofie and that makes Alice and Julie first cousins.

 

 

Endret Oktober 16 av Jackie K Marler

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

På 14.10.2024 den 22.49, Jackie K Marler skrev:

Here is a death of a #7 Johan Christiansen aged 41 in Feb 1865 in Spydeberg meaning roughly a birth about 1824:

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0006: Ministerialbok nr. I 6, 1863-1874, s. 166
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316030120

 

On the inmigrating record in Spydeberg for Johan Christiansen in 1850 his age was 27 so born about 1823.  Unfortunately the dodfallsprotokol were being kept by 1865 but searching didn't find a record for Johan in 1865.

 

1865: Febr 11, Johan Christiansen, 41 y, Skaugrimpl. (Skaugrimplass).

 

 

Archive and archive section
SAO-A-10635: Spydeberg lensmannsarkiv

 

Østfold county, Death register no. 1 (1856-1868), Death protocol page
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090526380829

 

Endret Oktober 16 av Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo
Lastet opp samme bilde 2 ganger

[Richard Berg]

On 10/14/2024 at 11:02 AM, Jackie K Marler said:

A Josef Sverre Olson b 1885 is in this family in the 1891 census:  YES

 

#40 Hilda Alette birth baptism   YES, I DO NOT INCLUDE HER IN MY FAMILY TREE BECAUSE SHE IS NO BLOOD RELATION

 

#5 1870 1st marriage of 2nd wife ? of Sigvart Olsen:  YES, TO OLAVES OLSEN

 

#51 1881 2nd marriage for each Julie Peders* and Sigvart Ols:   YES, SECOND MARRIAGE FOR BOTH

 

 

[Richard Berg]

I'm still working my way through all the information you all have posted. It's much appreciated. However, I'm still not convinced the two Marens are the same person. 

 

1.  There are two birth records for a Julie Olava. (There are actually three, one is illegitimate.)

 

Birth of Julie Olava on 2 May 1869, mother is Maren Sofie Johansdatter, father is Sigvardt Olsen. [this is not my grandmother, who was born in 1876]

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5757/44

Church records: Hobøl vicarage Church records, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Church book no. I 4, 1865-1877, p. 43  

 Sponsors: Helene Andersen (Håvi), Julie Olsdatter (Stenbøl), Olavüs Olsen (Prastgården?), Martin Hansen and Edvard Hansen (Fosseplads?)

 

and 

 

Birth of Julie Olava on 20 Feb 1876, mother’s name is Maren Sofie Christiansdatter, father’s is Sigvardt Olsen, dates are 20 Feb and 19 Mar, respectively.

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/5757/29350/67

Parish registry: Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Parish register (official) no. I 4, 1865-1877, p. 68

Sponsors: Mathiew Bilist (?), Tobias I. Bilist, Peder Pedersen (Stenbøl), Caroline (Hüül)

 

Furthermore, Sigvard, in his marriage to Sophie Maren Christiansdatter's, identifies his right father (Ole Haagensen), and also for Sophie Maren.  I have looked, but not exhaustively, for the wedding record of Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter, without success. Finding that would be a really good "tell." (Or have I missed it in the posts above?)

 

All the other information discovered about the Olsen-Johansdatter family relationship is interesting, but potentially not relevant to my family ancestry. I believe "my" Maren died in 1880. Sigvard remarried in 1881, and had one child (Josef) with his wife,  Julie Pedersdatter. It was her second marriage, too, and she brought step children to the marriage (Hilda Alette, for example, there were more). The relationship between Julia and Karl Anton (brother and sister) and Karolina Augusta and the Harstads is certainly curious. 

 

These are two different families, with coincidentally very similar names. I am still not convinced that Maren Sofie/Sophie Johansdatter is my great grandmother. 

Endret Oktober 16 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Who is cousin Alice P Johnson, then? 

 

Now for some statistical study for Maren Sophie in Hobøl:

 

Maren Sophie of any patronymic born and baptized in Hobol between 1840 and 1850 based on indexing values of the Digitalarkivet.  There are 3 only, none of the fathers were named Christian Johannesen.  The father's names are Samuel Samuelsen, Mathis Olsen, Johan Christiansen, only 2 were born in 1846 the third was born in 1842.  https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&m[]=0138&firstname=maren+sofie&lastname=&roles[]=barn&birth_year_from=&birth_year_to=&birth_date=&birth_place=&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=1840&event_year_to=1850&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=

 

Maren Sophie of any patronymic born between 1840 and 1850 in Hobøl living in Hobøl in the 1865 census: None

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&m[]=0138&firstname=maren+sofie&lastname=&birth_year_from=1840&birth_year_to=1850&birth_date=&birth_place=haabøl&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=

 

Maren Sophie of any patronymic born between 1840-1850 in Hobøl living in 1865  any or all the parishes of Østfold: One

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&c[]=01&firstname=maren+sofie&lastname=&birth_year_from=1840&birth_year_to=1850&birth_date=&birth_place=haabøl&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=

 

Maren Sophie of any patronymic born between 1840 and 1850 in Hobøl living in the whole nation of Norway in the 1865 census: One

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&firstname=maren+sofie&lastname=&birth_year_from=1840&birth_year_to=1850&birth_date=&birth_place=haabøl&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

 

Maren of any patronymic born between 1840 and 1850 in Hobøl living anywhere in the whole nation of Norway in the 1865 census: 14

But not one with the patronymic Christianson or Christiansdatter.

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&firstname=maren+&lastname=&birth_year_from=1840&birth_year_to=1850&birth_date=&birth_place=haabøl&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

 

Sofie of any patronymic born between 1840 and 1850 in Hobøl living anywhere in the whole nation of Norway in the 1865 census: 4

Not one of these have Christianson or Christiansdatter for a patronymic either.  Patronymics given are Hansen, Kaspersdatter, Johansdatter and if the fourth was using a patronymic instead of the surname she has would be Baltzersdatter. 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/search/persons/advanced?from=&to=&jt[]=7&firstname=sofie&lastname=&birth_year_from=1840&birth_year_to=1850&birth_date=&birth_place=haabøl&domicile=&position=&event_year_from=&event_year_to=&event_date=&related_first_name=&related_last_name=&related_birth_year=&sort=rel

 

The possibility of some random person named Maren or Maren Sophie born between 1840 and 1850 in Hobøl turning up in Hobøl is vanishingly small.  The cops ln cop shows say there is no such thing as coincidence.

Endret Oktober 16 av Jackie K Marler

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

#86 - Birth record 21/10-1856: Anne Marie Johansdtr.

Parents: Johan Christiansen and Anne Marie Pettersdatter, Qvarud (Kvarud).

 

Østfold county, Spydeberg, Heli, Hovin in Spydeberg, Parish register (official) no. I 5 (1842-1862), Born and baptised 1856, Page 80
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040717
 

#44 - Death record 5/11-1856: Anne Marie Pettersdatter, 34y, Qvarud
#4 - Death record 7/1-1857: Anne Marie Johansdtr, 10w, Qvarud

 

Anne Marie named after her mother who died before her baptism.

 

Østfold county, Spydeberg, Heli, Hovin in Spydeberg, Parish register (official) no. I 5 (1842-1862), Deceased and buried 1857, Page 251
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040861

Death protocol 1856: 

Anne Marie Pettersdatter, Qvarud, 34y.
Widower Johan Christiansen Qvarud. 
Son Petter Johansen Qvarud 6y (Peter Oluf re Jackie's birth record from yesterday)
Daughter Maren Sophie Johansdatter Qvarud 10y, Karoline Johansdatter Qvarud ?y, Anne Marie Johansdatter 14 d.

 

Next page:

 

 

Østfold county, Death register no. 1 (1856-1868), Death protocol page
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090526380791

[Richard Berg]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:33 AM, Jackie K Marler said:

Richard, did you ever get your grandmother's death certificate?  Illinois d.c. usually contain information about the parents. 

 

This is sort of an aside on page 4 of this topic at Norway Heritage Emil T Berg and Julia Berg are mentioned: https://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6151&whichpage=4&SearchTerms=emil berg

Norway Heritage is going through a tough time right now.  On my computer, Firefox is the only browser that works with NorwayHeritage right now.  In the 1920 census a divorced woman named Alice Swanson (Swanson was her former married name) was living with them and listed as a cousin.  Do you know anything about her?  She was married twice, first to Mr. Swanson and second hsuband was named Mikkelson. 

 

Also a bit on page 8 post by Jane 😄

"...1900 US Census says Peter O Johnson born March 1851 Norway. Marriage to Caroline Sophie Larsen says his father is Johan Christiansen. So here's a candidate for birth of Peter Oluf Johansen 15 Mar 1851 with parents Johan Christiansen and Anne Marie Petersdatter.
Spydeberg, Ostfold ..."  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NWGT-2X1

 

 

Jackie, Sorry I'm going through this so slowly - takes time and this is not my only life 🙂 

 

The posts on Norway Heritage were very interesting, too. I found these records relating to Alice Pauline Johansen (Johnson)

 

b. 16 Jan 1879, bp. 2 Jun 1879
Peter Oluf Johansen and Pauline Josephine Augusta Johannesdatter
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5790/52

 

Emigration record (other records exist for Jens and Peter) 
Destination: New York
Ship: Montebello (to Liverpool)
Date: 15 Aug 1890 (age 10)?
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

 

Immigration record (Ellis Island)
Alice and Jens at the bottom of this page image; Peter (machinist), top of next. The three of them are traveling together. 

From this record (https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe000000009410070) it looks like Peter traveled on a different ship to Liverpool.
Ship: City of Chester

Departure from Liverpool.
Arrival Date: 30 Aug 1890
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7488/images/NYM237_554-0356

 

These may be referenced below. Sorry if they're dupications. 

 

I have looked at some your references below in your message, but not all at this time. I don't know who Alice P Johnson is; I don't recall ever hearing that name, but that's not saying much since it would have been 65 or more years ago. Mikkelsen/Michelsen - don't know that name either. 

Endret Oktober 16 av Richard Berg

[Anton Hagelee]

2 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

Furthermore, Sigvard, in his marriage to Sophie Maren Christiansdatter's, identifies his right father (Ole Haagensen), and also for Sophie Maren.  I have looked, but not exhaustively, for the wedding record of Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter, without success. Finding that would be a really good "tell." (Or have I missed it in the posts above?)

 

Of the over 30,000 marriages found in a search of marriage records Ancestry.com for the years 1869 +/- 10 years for Østfold there are none for a Maren Johans* married to a Si*.  Olsen. 

 

Similar search on transcribed parish records for Hobøl and Spydeberg turns up only your Sophie Maren Christiansd. I used Sig* Olsen and Maren as the names of the couple and dates 1859 to 1879. 

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

11 minutes ago, Richard Berg said:

Jackie, Sorry I'm going through this so slowly - takes time and this is not my only life 🙂 

 

The posts on Norway Heritage were very interesting, too. I found these records relating to Alice Pauline Johansen (Johnson)

 

b. 16 Jan 1879, bp. 2 Jun 1879
Peter Oluf Johansen and Pauline Josephine Augusta Johannesdatter That is the mother from the entry above this one.  This Alice's mum is Caroline Sofie Larsen
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5790/52

 

Emigration record (other records exist for Jens and Peter) 
Destination: New York
Ship: Montebello (to Liverpool)
Date: 15 Aug 1890 (age 10)?
https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

 

Immigration record (Ellis Island)
Alice and Jens at the bottom of this page image; Peter (machinist), top of next. The three of them are traveling together. 

From this record (https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe000000009410070) it looks like Peter traveled on a different ship to Liverpool.

No, this link goes to Peder's trip in 1880, that's why its on a different ship.  He was in America from 1880 until the trip when he picked up his two children in 1890.  1900 census Peter Johnson gives his migration year as 1880.
Ship: City of Chester

Departure from Liverpool.
Arrival Date: 30 Aug 1890

 

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7488/images/NYM237_554-0356

Sorry I don't subscribe to Ancestry but I do have access to the Library edition when I'm physically at the Library.

 

 

These may be referenced below. Sorry if they're dupications. 

 

I have looked at some your references below in your message, but not all at this time.

 

[Richard Berg]

2 minutes ago, Jackie K Marler said:

 

Right, they emigrated in 1890, not 1880. What am I thinking...

 

Will this save you a trip to the library?

[Jackie K Marler]

1 minute ago, Richard Berg said:

Right, they emigrated in 1890, not 1880. What am I thinking...

 

Will this save you a trip to the library?

 

and or a trip to the Ellis Island website database.  Many thanks.

[Richard Berg]

26 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

 

Of the over 30,000 marriages found in a search of marriage records Ancestry.com for the years 1869 +/- 10 years for Østfold there are none for a Maren Johans* married to a Si*.  Olsen. 

 

Similar search on transcribed parish records for Hobøl and Spydeberg turns up only your Sophie Maren Christiansd. I used Sig* Olsen and Maren as the names of the couple and dates 1859 to 1879. 

 

 

Thanks, Anton.  Golly, there's got to be some record of the marriage of Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter.  You would think. Were they dissenters and celebrated a marriage somewhere else? Were civil marriages at the courthouse possible? 

 

I AM ready to give up on my notion that the illegitimate daughter of Thrine Christiansdatter, named Maren Sophie with no last name, is actually my great-grandmother. If she was fathered by Samuel Samuelsen, then she indeed did die as a child. This was probably a foolish and romantic dream of mine. I think the upper stories of my house of cards has fallen.

 

But I just don't understand where Maren Sophie/Sophie Maren Christiansdatter comes from (birthwise) as recorded on her marriage record to Sigvard Olsen, with a father named Christian Johannessen, and she's named like that on all of their children's birth records. And lacking a marriage record for Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter, my jury is still "hung." 

[Jackie K Marler]

2 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

Thanks, Anton.  Golly, there's got to be some record of the marriage of Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter.  You would think. Were they dissenters and celebrated a marriage somewhere else? Were civil marriages at the courthouse possible? If they  were dissenters the marriage should still be recorded some place.  Sometimes dissenters were recorded in the same books as all the other records.  If the dissenter church was large enough there might be a separate book kept by the denomination which may or may not have been indexed etc.  There were civil marriages conducted in Oslo and possibly other places.

 

 

I AM ready to give up on my notion that the illegitimate daughter of Thrine Christiansdatter, named Maren Sophie with no last name, is actually my great-grandmother. If she was fathered by Samuel Samuelsen, then she indeed did die as a child. This was probably a foolish and romantic dream of mine. I think the upper stories of my house of cards has fallen.

 

But I just don't understand where Maren Sophie/Sophie Maren Christiansdatter comes from (birthwise) as recorded on her marriage record to Sigvard Olsen, with a father named Christian Johannessen, and she's named like that on all of their children's birth records. And lacking a marriage record for Sigvard and Maren Sophie Johansdatter, my jury is still "hung." 

 

What kind of relationships are possible?  Maren Sophie Johansdatter and her siblings and father were left without wife and mother in 1856.  Maren was the oldest kid.  At the age of ten it's a bit hard to imagine but maybe she and the other children were "farmed out" to be fostered on other places with other people than their bio father.  The vital records of Spydeberg are silent until Maren's confirmation.  Maybe there was someone named Christian Johanneson,( maybe even her paternal grandfather?) who took care of her and them for the intervening years and she wished to honor that person?  Until or unless there is a record of such a proceeding assigning the children elsewhere, the story is not complete.  Perhaps there is something about Johan Christianson such as a "double first name" as in Johan Christian Christianson? 

Endret Oktober 16 av Jackie K Marler

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

5 timer siden, Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo skrev:

 

1865: Febr 11, Johan Christiansen, 41 y, Skaugrimpl. (Skaugrimplass).

 

 

Archive and archive section
SAO-A-10635: Spydeberg lensmannsarkiv

 

Østfold county, Death register no. 1 (1856-1868), Death protocol page
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090526380829

 

 

"Efterladtes barn tilfaldes Fattigvæsenet"? (Fattigvesen: Poverty relief board).

 

#3 - Protocol 23/2-1865: Sofie Johansdatter has taken care of the family? Her brother and her sister; were "farmed out" to be fostered - re Jackie 🙂

 

 

Østfold county, Pauper protocols no. 1 (1843-1876)
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/ed60047804000117

[Anton Hagelee]

7 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

 

Birth of Julie Olava on 2 May 1869, mother is Maren Sofie Johansdatter, father is Sigvardt Olsen. [this is not my grandmother, who was born in 1876]

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5757/44

 

Yes, this is not your grandmother but is likely the first child of the parents of your grandmother Julia Oavasdatter.

 

So Sigvardt Olsen married a Maren Sofie in April of  1869. They had a child in May of 1869. In the marriage she is named Maren Sofie Christiansdatter but in the record for the birth of her first child she is named Maren Sofie Johansdatter. 

 

This first daughter died in July of 1875. Nr 41 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070392

 

Then Sigvardt Olsen and his wife had another daughter in February of 1876. This daughter was then named Julia Olava who is your grandmother. For this child the child has father Sigardt Olsen and mother Maren Sofie Christiansdatter. 

 

It is fairly common for Norwegian families to give a child born after the death of a child the same name as the dead child. 

 

Based on the scarcity of candidates I would conclude that the two girls have the same parents even tho in one case the mother is listed as Maren Sofie Johansdatter and in the second birth is listed as Maren Sofie Chritiansdatter. 

 

The other place where there appears to be some name confusion is for the birth of Ole Thorvold in which the name for Maren Sofie is first written as Sofie Johansdatter and the Johansdatter crossed out and replaced by Christiansdatter. 

 

Nr 25

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070305

 

It is mostly due to these two events with the appearance of Maren Sofie  using the patronymic  name of Johnasdatter and the scarcity of any other candidates appearing in these searches that caused me to buy into the concept of the two ladies being one and the same. 

 

 

 

 

 

Endret Oktober 16 av Anton Hagelee

[Richard Berg]

15 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

So Sigvardt Olsen married a Maren Sofie in April of  1869. They had a child in May of 1869. In the marriage she is named Maren Sofie Christiansdatter but in the record for the birth of her first child she is named Maren Sofie Johansdatter.  That's how it looks. This is a problem for me.  If she's not a Christiansdatter in her marriage, why is her father's name Christian and not Johan??  That would be a terrible clerical error in recording the birth. Second, she's a Christiansdatter for her other three children. Why is she not Johansdatter for those?  

 

15 minutes ago, Anton Hagelee said:

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070392

...

It is fairly common for Norwegian families to give a child born after the death of a child the same name as the dead child.  II understand that. There are other example throughout my family tree where that's the case.  The second Julie was born on 20 Feb 1876, just 6 months after the first Julie's death. That would be a fitting tribute, I guess.

 

Based on the scarcity of candidates I would conclude that the two girls have the same parents even tho in one case the mother is listed as Maren Sofie Johansdatter and in the second birth is listed as Maren Sofie Christiansdatter.  This, as you could tell, doesn't sit well with me yet. 

 

 

 

Thanks for your continuing thoughts!

[Jackie K Marler]

Here's how Skandinaven reported Peter O Johnson's burial, on Friday 23 Nov 1900 page 8 col 3:

 

https://www.nb.no/items/595d367f69b9b79c46eee1a41dd0c33f?page=7&searchText="peter o johnson"

No mention of the daughter named Iva Sophie / Eva Sophie with the second wife

 

And another earlier story also in Skandinaven Onsdag 21 November 1900 page 8 col 3 "Mord og Selvmord"

https://www.nb.no/items/b836fdb0b8d4a18cd5a4c47cbfe51615?page=7&searchText="peter o johnson"

 

 

Endret Oktober 17 av Jackie K Marler