Difficulty tracing one of my great-grandmother's ancestry

[Gry.Onarheim.Dahlmo]

På 14.10.2024 den 13.31, Jackie K Marler skrev:

#25 birth baptism Ole Thorvald

Hobøl prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-2002/F/Fa/L0004: Ministerialbok nr. I 4, 1865-1877, s. 59
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070305

 

Mother's name: Johansd crossed out and replaced by Christians

 

#6 - death record 1876 Ole Thorvald Sigvartsen, Haabølplads:

 

Østfold county, Hobøl, Tomter in Hobøl, Parish register (official) no. I 4 (1865-1877), Deceased and buried 1876, Page 183
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060919070393

[Jackie K Marler]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:49 AM, Jackie K Marler said:

Here is the baptism record of a target Peter Oluf Johansen, probably the brother of Karoline Auguste and Maren Sophie:

 

The farm they resided in 1851 is the same one the Johan Christiansen who died in 1865 resided on at death.

The source for this image is at familysearch.org:

image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-B3PL-12K9?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A68SR-1DB8&action=view&cc=4237104

transcription:"Norway Church Books, 1815-1930", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:68SR-1DB8 : Sat Mar 09 17:20:56 UTC 2024), Entry for Peter Oluf Johansen and Johan Christiansen, 4 May 1851.

[Richard Berg]

On 10/16/2024 at 1:47 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

 

What kind of relationships are possible?  Maren Sophie Johansdatter and her siblings and father were left without wife and mother in 1856.  Maren was the oldest kid.  At the age of ten it's a bit hard to imagine but maybe she and the other children were "farmed out" to be fostered on other places with other people than their bio father.  The vital records of Spydeberg are silent until Maren's confirmation.  Maybe there was someone named Christian Johanneson,( maybe even her paternal grandfather?) who took care of her and them for the intervening years and she wished to honor that person?  Until or unless there is a record of such a proceeding assigning the children elsewhere, the story is not complete.  Perhaps there is something about Johan Christianson such as a "double first name" as in Johan Christian Christianson? 

 

Hi, Jackie,

   I am at least down this far in the long list of post above!   You asked about my grandmother's death certificate.  I have an 86 year old cousin, the last one left on this side of the family but not the Olsen branch, whose wife was the "family" genealogist in the good old days of paper. She's no longer with us. She had some information about Julia. I have asked my cousin whether he could look through her boxes and find a paper death certificate from Cook County Illinois. I don't know what kind of chore this will be for him. Waiting for a response. 

 

I can buy a death certificate for her through an online broker, for twenty-five bucks. I will do that if I'm not successful above. 

 

I'm relenting (but haven't given up quite yet on two Marens). To that end I've built a shadow family tree on Ancestry to incorporate all the information that's been passed along. Here's what it looks like. Sharp eyes can read this (although I can't 🙂 :

 

 

Notice that Johan's dad was named Christian Christiansen. Since Johan died when Maren was only 18, and her mother was also gone by then, your comments about respecting her grandfather, or even possible being "raised" by him, seem reasonable. 

Endret Oktober 19 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

 

On 10/16/2024 at 9:52 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

Here's how Skandinaven reported Peter O Johnson's burial, on Friday 23 Nov 1900 page 8 col 3:

 

https://www.nb.no/items/595d367f69b9b79c46eee1a41dd0c33f?page=7&searchText="peter o johnson"

No mention of the daughter named Iva Sophie / Eva Sophie with the second wife

 

And another earlier story also in Skandinaven Onsdag 21 November 1900 page 8 col 3 "Mord og Selvmord"

https://www.nb.no/items/b836fdb0b8d4a18cd5a4c47cbfe51615?page=7&searchText="peter o johnson"

 

The pastor who is mentioned at his funeral, page 124 Norske Lutherske Prester i America 1843-1915 by O.M. Norlie:

 

 

 

 

 

1892 Chicago City Directory

Endret Oktober 19 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Petter Oluf Johanson had at least 5 children: 

With wife #1 Caroline Sofie Larson, a boy named Jens Olaf Sofus b 1877 who came to US with Peter and Alice in 1890.  He went by James Peter Johnson here & he was married to Marie Strand, had a number of children with her and worked as a milkman.  Haven't followed through with James' children.

and #2 a girl named Alice Pauline dealt with in earlier posts

 

With wife #2 Jennie Amalie Jorstad , a daughter name Iva Sofie or Eva Sofie b. 19 June (or 18 June) 1885 in Chicago.  Her baptism was recorded as occurring 28 Nov 1885 in a church identified as Independent Evangelical Lutheran Bethany Church.  The Norway Heritage posts were mostly dealing with the fates of Sofie and her mother which were not resolved.

 

With wife #3 Ovidea / Ovidia Caspara Casperson, 2 sons one named Arthur (Arthur Otto?) and George Olaf Alfred.  Arthur is found with his mother in the 1900 US census, but he seems to disappear and then Caspara has a son of the same age as Arthur in later censuses only named Otto Haffner, during the marriage she had with Carl or Charles Haffner.  It seems possible that Arthur was adopted by her 2nd husband but it's not known if Carl / Charles Haffner had a prior marriage and or children.  As far as I know Otto Haffner who was married had no children.

 

Giving you the rough outlines here in case it comes down to DNA and needing someone to test to compare.

[Jackie K Marler]

According the Wiki on Hobol at familysearch.org , here is a list of the farm names from the parish, usually these are based on Oluf Rygh books and sometimes bygdebok but the page doesn't say for these.  Boldface on some of the known farms connected to your family :

69 Askerud 94 Aspeli

96 Bakneset 43 Berg 103 Bjerve 89 Bjoner 53 Bovum nordre 82 Braanen 85 Braate store 57 Brennemoen og Trætterstykket 82 Bækhus 67 Bære 62 Bøler vestre 48 Bøler østre

80 Dal 104 Dalaas 63 Daler

35 Eikeberg 97 Eng 56 Fjeld

96 Fjeldstad 44 Foss

95 Glæden 96 Granrud 110 Greaaker 47 Grimsrud 107 Groterud 67 Grønlund 55 Gusland 109 Gustvet

79 Haglerud 42 Halskjet 58 Haslerud 105 Haug store 106 Hobøl Præstegaard med Stenbøl 100 Hol 34 Hollebøl 41 Hollen 70 Holmen 72 Holo 66 Holstad 39 Holt 59 Hovin 102 Hul 94 Hvam 107 Hvitstein nordre 101 Hvitstein søndre 96 Høgda 78 Høiaas

46 Jaeren 81 Jerpelotten

73 Karlstad 104 Kattaas 36 Knapstad 96 Kolstad 88 Kongshaug 50 Krok vestre

99 Laasken 38 Leppestad 93 Li 47 Lure 37 Lyshaug 40 Lyshaug

45 Melleby 88 Myrer

113 Narvebøl 83 Narvestad 91 Nommestad 98 Nygaard

82 Oddestad

110 Pigstad

46 Rakelstad 51 Riggesum 92 Ringstad 64 Riser 71 Rognelund 96 Rom 114 Rumpen 65 Rygge 108 Rød

99 Sagbakken 95 Saksebøl 88 Sandaaker 96 Sandbækken 96 Sandvold 87 Skinnerud 71 Skistad 76 Skjelfoss nordre 57 Skjolden 115 Skog nordre 60 Skvetta 70 Slutningen 52 Smedebøl 90 Smertu 76 Sprangmyren 104 Struten 82 Stubberud 116 Stubberud 117 Støttum 74 Svelgen 96 Sørli

111 Tingulstad nedre 96 Tisbjørnrød 71 Tyrihjell 71 Tømt 68 Tønnerud

82 Varpet 84 Vesterby 95 Vestereng 63 Vildskog

96 Østereng

 

[Jackie K Marler]

Thursday 25 July 1930 Scandia published Chicago page 2 col 3

https://www.nb.no/items/fcaa919da04db738a82c51f4f2d47004?page=1&searchText=ole stembol

[Jackie K Marler]

The smoking gun if I can ever get it to load. 

Skandinaven pub Chicago Friday 25 Sept 1925 page 9 col 5

https://www.nb.no/items/1785d0a031ae897215cb7bbc204cae8e?page=11&searchText="tante til karl stenbol, julia Berg"

 

She came to Chicago in 1906, paid for 2 people as Karoline Augusta Johansd and unmarried:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000577060

 

Arrival at New York going to Karl Stembol:

"New York Passenger Arrival Lists (Ellis Island), 1892-1924", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JFDX-MMQ : Fri Mar 08 04:07:40 UTC 2024), Entry for Karoline Johansen and Mr Karl Stembol, 1906.

 

image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C95M-F6Q5?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJFDX-MMQ&action=view&cc=1368704

 

A possible Karoline Johansen in Oslo in 1905:

Kristiania/Oslo adressebok, PUBL/-, 1905, p. 509
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/db10061202275201

 

Gunerius Harstad in Oslo in 1897:

Kristiania/Oslo adressebok, PUBL/-, 1897, p. 285
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/db10061508042312

 

Several Caroline Johansens in Oslo in 1897

Kristiania/Oslo adressebok, PUBL/-, 1897, p. 335
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/db10061508042362

 

Listing of the scanned adressebok of Oslo:

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/db/browse?archive_key=&counties[]=03&municipalities[]=0301&start_year=&end_year=&tags[]=101&text=

 

 

Here is a possible death for Caroline born 1852 Sydeberg father Christian Johnson:

"Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1871-1998", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGNF-7TXD : Sat Aug 31 09:35:31 UTC 2024), Entry for Caroline Johnson and Christian Johnson, 17 Sep 1925.

Name	Caroline Johnson
Sex	Female
Age	72
Birth Date	20 Nov 1852
Birthplace	Spydeberg, , Norway
Address	3943 Wrightwood
Marital Status	Widowed
Race	White
Father's Name	Christian Johnson
Mother's Name	Sophie Johansen Laske
Spouse's Name	Cornelius
Informant's Name	B M Foekdale
Event Type	Death
Event Date	17 Sep 1925
Event Place	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States
Event Place (Original)	Chicago, Cook, Illinois
Funeral Home	Wold And Wold
Cemetery	Mount Olive
Entry Number	24650

 

Endret Oktober 20 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

There are quite a mix of names on the Caroline Johnson death record above but are you familiar with the informant B.M. Foekdale?  Do well to remember Caroline was 3-4 when her mother died and elevenish when her father died.  Perhaps she thought of Maren Sophie Johansdtr, her sister, as her mother.  Gunerius could easily be misheard or misread to Cornelius.  I guess I'd want to see the actual death certificate to judge the handwriting.  B.M. Foekdale as B.M. Forkedale as B.M. Folfedale was informant on at least 3 d.c. so he / she might be a doctor or hospital or nursing home person rather than a family member.

 

#1 Karoline Auguste Johansdatter

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. I 5, 1842-1862, p. 63
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040699

 

by the way I searched the Spydeberg birth / baptisms from 1851-1854 and there were only 3 with Caroline as a first or middle name...

 

#5 Hofs in Spydeberg 1869 confirmands Karoline Auguste living on Olafsrud born on Skogrimsplads:

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0006: Parish register (official) no. I 6, 1863-1874, p. 121
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316030081

 

Endret Oktober 20 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Spydeberg wiki at familysearch.org has these farm names:

Spydeberg Bygdebok Folk or Hjem – På Gamle og Nye Tomter – Bosettingen i Spydeberg Bind 1 Midtbyga med Stasjonsbyen; Bind 2 Nordbyga med Stegen og Vassygda; Bind 3 Sørbygda med Heli or Mørk in 2003 are as follows. Some of these farms are divided into to søndre, nordre, østre, vestre, mellon, store, lille, øvre, nedre. These are not designated in this list:

Alvimplass, Amundrud, Amundrudhytta, Amundrudplass, Amundstua, Anstensrud, Arnebo, Asper, Asperplass, Aufles, Austegaard, Auten, Bakkeli, Bakketun, Bakkelund, Bekkenes, Bekkestua, Berg, Bergbo, Bergenhus, Berger, Bergerdalen, Bergerplass, Berget, Bergset,Bergtun, Bingen, Birkeland, Bjaberg, Bjabergholtet, Bjerke, Bjerkebo, Bjerkelia, Bjerkely, Bjerkeskaug, Bjerkås, Bjørkheim, Bjørkhol, Bjørklund, Bjørkås, Bjørnerud, Bjørnstad, Bloksberg, Bogen, Bovik, Bowim, Bowimdalen, Bråtan, Bråten, Braatenes, Bråtli, Bukkøya, Buttelbakke, Bøhler, Bøhlerplass, Bøhlermyra, Bøhren, Bøhrenfjerdingen, Bøhrenplass, Capri, Dalen, Danmark, Dingstad, Dingstadplass, Doggetorp, Dæhli, Dæhliplass, Egeland, Egelandplass, Eikås, Ek, Ekeberg, Ekebergplass, Elsrud, Elverhøi, Elvestad, Enerhaugen, Enerstad, Enga, Engeland, Englund, Espenes, Fagerheim, Fagerli, Fagerly, Fagertun, Fagerås, Fageriet, Fjeld, Fjeldby, Fjeldhammer, Fjeldly, Fjeldstad, Fjeldvang, Fjeldaas, Fjellbu, Fjellhvil, Fjello, Fjellstad, Fjellstua, Fjelltun, Fjelltun/Skobly, Fjelly, Fjordglimt, Flateby, Flatebyplass, Fonkerud, Fossen, Fosseaasen, Fosser, Fossum, Fossumhøgda, Fossumplass, Frankrike, Fransvold, Fredbo, Fredensborg, Fredheim, Fredly, Fredrikstad, Fredrikstadåsen, Frydenlund, Frøhaugen, Frøhol, Fuglesangen, Fugli, Funkerud, Furubo, Furuheim, Furuli, Furuly, Furumoen, Furuodden, Furuåsen, Fyrillen, Galtebo, Galtebohuset, Galteboplass, Geithytta, Gilbo, Giltvedt, Giltvedtplass, Glende, Glendehagen, Glendeplass, Glomsvik, Glomvik, Godheim, Godlia, Gottfredsstua, Granerud, Granlund, Granly, Granstua, Granum, Gresshagen, Gressholt, Grinda, Grinden, Grindeskogen, Grini, Grinøya, Grotta, Grottenberg, Grubås, Grønli, Grønlund, Grønmo, Grønslett, Grøtjern, Gudbrandsdalen, Gullhaug, Haga, Hallerud, Hallerudhøgda, Hallerudplass, Haltorp, Haltorpplass, Harestad, Hamborg, Haug, Haugen, Haugenplass, Hauger, Haugerud, Haugland, Hauglandshuset, Hauglandsnippen, Hauglandstranden, Haugsberg, Haugsdalen, Haugstangen, Haukenes, Haukenesdalen, Haukensholen, Haukeneshuset, Haukenesplass, Heiestad, Heiestadplass, Hekkemyren, Heli, Heliplass, Hellerud, Hellerudhytta, Hellerudplass, Hellerudsnippen, Hemnes, Hemneshuset, Hemnesplass, Hemnestangen, Hesle, Hesleskaug, Hesleskaugplass, Hestehagen, Hestehagjordet, Hjartingbu, Hjerteburet, Hjetefred, Hjertum, Hjørnerud, Holen, Holli, Hollibo, Hollihytta, Holm, Holmbo, Holmbraaten, Holmen, Holmeng, Holmsbråten, Holmsevjen, Holmskog, Holmsplass, Holmstad, Holmstranden, Holstad, Holstein, Holt, Holtet, Hov, Hovin, Hovinhuset, Hovinplass, Hovsplass, Husa, Huseby, Husebyhuset, Husebyplass, Hushagan, Hustangen, Hvitsten, Hvitstenhuset, Hvitstenplass, Hyggelia, Hylli, Hyllibråten, Hylliplass, Høgda, Høgås, Hølås, Igelstad, Ingstad, Ingstadplass, Jan Mayn, Jemtland, Jonsegrinda, Jonsrud, Jotun, Jutulen, Kallerud, Kallum, Kallumplass, Karlsbo, Kausebøl, Kausebølplass, Kirkeløkken, Kirkerud, Kirkerudplass, Kjeldstad, Kjerringstad, Kjos, Kjosplass, Kjærstad, Kleiva, Klever, Kløfta, Knausen, Kodalen, Kogstad, Kogstadplass, Korsveien, Kratt, Kroken, Kula, Kvardal, Kvarud, Kveldsro, Kvernstuen, Kåtorp, Kåtropgrinda, Kåtorpplass, Landro, Langdru, Langnes, Laureng, Leina, Leinene, Leon, Letøen, Lia, Lie, Lieplass, Ligodt, Lihytta, Lille Ødegårdsås, Liskrabben, Litenåsen, Livang, Logn, Lund, Lundeby, Lundsplass, Lunner, Lykkebo, Lyngheim, Lyngås, Lysebu, Lysfjelldalen, Lyshaugplass, Lystad, Lystadhytta, Lystyadplass, Løken, Løkenplass, Løkka, Løkke, Løvestad, Løvestadplass, Løvli, Løvås, Mageraas, Mariaholm, Marknaden, Melkeberg, Mellomstua, Moen, Moenplass, Mol-bo, Molle, Mosaby, Moseby, Mulerud, Myhren, Myra, Myrberg, Myrer, Myrerplass, Myrås, Møllerstua, Møllerstuen, Mørk, Mørkhuset, Mørkkollen, Mørkplass, Mørkve, Måråsen, Narvestad, Nes, Nesa, Nesgrinda, Nesgrinden, Nesheim, Nesjordet, Nesplass, Nesset, Nestingdalen, Nestingen, Nestingenplass, Nilse-bu, Nilsehytta, Nisseberget, Nordengen, Nordheim, Nordli, Nordut, Norum, Nybraatt, Nygård, Nyland, Nylenna, Næsstranden, Nøa, Odden, Olavsrud, Olavsrudplass, Oldenborg, Ormerud, Ospelund, Paradiset, Pasop, Perstad, Petrastua, Plassen, Prestby, Presthagen, Preståsen, Rabben, Ramstad, Ramstadgrinda, Ramstadplass, Rauløkji, Revhaug, Ringkollen, Rokka, Roås, Rud, Rudsenga, Rudshuset, Rudsplass, Rundhaug, Rustad, Rustadplass, Røtterud, Saga, Sagbakken, Saksebøl, Sandbakken, Sandem, Sandhullet, Sandvik, Sandvold, Sandås, Saron, Sauepina, Setra, Skarpsno, Skauen, Skaugen, Skaugrim, Skaugrimsplass, Skillestad, Skjærsaker, Skjærsakerplass, Skjønberg, Skog, Skogen, Skogli, Skogly, Skogtun, Skoro, Skoroaas, Skrabben, Skrømsledalen, Skråperud, Skulberg, Skulbergplass, Skøyen, Skøyenplass, Skaabommen, Skårberg, Skaarud, Slengen, Sletto, Slottet, Smedhytta, Smedløkka, Smådalen, Snippen, Solbakken, Solberg, Solbergplass, Solbergro, Sobergsetera, Solbo, Solgløtt, Solgry, Solhaug, Solheim, Svenneby, Solli, Sollistranden, Solstua, Soltun, Solvang, Solvent, Solås, Spennivegg, Spillemannshytta, Stallbustad, Stampa, Steinhaugen, Stenerud, Stensrud, Stolpestad, Storøya, Strømnes, Stønnerud, Stubberud, Sundby, Sundbyplass, Sundhytten, Sundås, Svarverud, Svenneby, Svennebyhuset, Svennebynesa, Svennebyplass, Svenningsrud, Svingen, Svinningen, Svinningenplass, Swanberg, Syltevik, Syverud, Sølvberg, Sørbråtan, Sørli, Sørlie, Sørliås, Tangen, Tettum, Teverud, Thonerud, Thonerudgrinna, Thonerudhytta, Thonerudplass, Thonerudtangen, Toie, Toje, Tomta, Tomtekollen, Tomter, Toppen, Torget, Torp, Torpplass, Torud, Thorudplass, Torudåsen, Trekanten, Tretrivelig, Tretterstykket, Tretun, Trommelberg, Trommelbergplass, Trommelbergvolden, Tronstad, Tronstadplass, Tueborg, Tullebekk, Tunby, Tunbybråten, Tunbyplass, Turås, Tussebo, Tyrihaugen, Tørtland, Unnerud, Unnerudplass, Utsigten, Varden, Vassbråten, Vassbu, Vassbygda, Vasshytta, Vatn, Vatnplass, Veslerud, Vestberg, Vestby, Vestbyplass, Vestereng, Vestjordet, Vestland, Vestli, Vien, Vienhytta, Vienplass, Vilsund, Vold, Voldplass, Voldåsen, Vollebekk, Vollene, Vrangen, Vrifu, Vøyen, Vøyenplass, Vøyentangen, Ødegården, Ødeli, Ødelihusa, Østby, Østereng, Østholm, Østli, Østreng, Østvedt, Øya, Åkeberg, Ås, Åsen, Aasen, Aaser, Åserud, Åserudmoen, Aasheim, Aasheimplass, Åsland, Åsli, Åsly, Aasro, Åstorp

[Richard Berg]

On 10/14/2024 at 2:17 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

Another source which might be helpful re Maren Sophie is if you find an actual death for her, is a dodsfallsprotokol.  Oslo's are very complete and very early, don't know about Hobol's.  Hobol's appear to not be online for any date prior to 1883, no help there.

 

 

Found this death record :

#47  29 Apr 1917:  Church records: Kampen vicarage Church records, AV/SAO-A-10853/F/Fa/L0013: Church book no. I 13, 1917-1922, p. 253

 

or: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16/259

 

This mentions her birth home as Norderhov - a farm in Hobøl municipality? She died at an address in Oslo (Hölandsgata 13) that was different from Sigvard's, who died at Smedgata 9, eight years later. 

 

I haven't looked for the protocol record yet.  

Endret Oktober 21 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

14 minutes ago, Richard Berg said:

Found this death record :

#47  29 Apr 1917:  Church records: Kampen vicarage Church records, AV/SAO-A-10853/F/Fa/L0013: Church book no. I 13, 1917-1922, p. 253

 

or: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16/259

 

This mentions her birth home as Norderhov - a farm in Hobøl municipality? She died at an address in Oslo that was different from Sigvard's, who died at Smedgaten 9, eight years later. 

 

I haven't looked for the protocol record yet.  

Maren Johansen f Olsen means that she had a father named Ole.  Lars Johansen was her spouse.  And it's way late in 1917, doesn't seem to fit maritally as departed on or by 1881 so 1st  husband can marry a new wife.  In this case Norderhov is a parish.  But look up the dodsfallsprotokol to be assured.

[Jackie K Marler]

Does anyone have access to the Spydeberg bygdeboker?  There was a Christian Johansen who was the father of a Johannes born in 1820 in Spydeberg and this Christian is often recorded as on ødelid,  ødeli

[Richard Berg]

9 hours ago, Jackie K Marler said:

Maren Johansen f Olsen means that she had a father named Ole.  Lars Johansen was her spouse.  And it's way late in 1917, doesn't seem to fit maritally as departed on or by 1881 so 1st  husband can marry a new wife.  In this case Norderhov is a parish.  But look up the dodsfallsprotokol to be assured.

 

Oh, what was I thinking?!  Of course this was wrong. Sigvard was remarried in 1881.  I should not post messages when I'm falling asleep...  Sorry.

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

"Thompsen: Herved bekjentgjørelse,  at Caroline Thompsen er gaaet ved døden.  Hun var elsket tante til Karl Stenbol, Julia Berg, James Johnsen og Alice Michelson."  published in Skandinaven at Chicago, Illinois, Friday 25 Sept 1925 page 9

 

Google translate translates this to say:

"Thompsen: This is to announce that Caroline Thompsen has passed away.  She was the beloved aunt of 
Karl Stenbol, Julia Berg, James Johnsen and Alice Michelson."

Karl Stenbol you recognized as brother of Julia Berg, so who are James and Alice?

 

[Richard Berg]

23 hours ago, Jackie K Marler said:

There are quite a mix of names on the Caroline Johnson death record above but are you familiar with the informant B.M. Foekdale?  Do well to remember Caroline was 3-4 when her mother died and elevenish when her father died.  Perhaps she thought of Maren Sophie Johansdtr, her sister, as her mother.  Gunerius could easily be misheard or misread to Cornelius.  I guess I'd want to see the actual death certificate to judge the handwriting.  B.M. Foekdale as B.M. Forkedale as B.M. Folfedale was informant on at least 3 d.c. so he / she might be a doctor or hospital or nursing home person rather than a family member.

 

#1 Karoline Auguste Johansdatter

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0005: Parish register (official) no. I 5, 1842-1862, p. 63
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316040699

 

by the way I searched the Spydeberg birth / baptisms from 1851-1854 and there were only 3 with Caroline as a first or middle name...

 

#5 Hofs in Spydeberg 1869 confirmands Karoline Auguste living on Olafsrud born on Skogrimsplads:

Spydeberg prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10924/F/Fa/L0006: Parish register (official) no. I 6, 1863-1874, p. 121
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060316030081

 

 

Jackie,

  I don't know and never heard the name B. M. Foekdale. It's not surprising that she was buried at Mt. Olive cemetery. My parents and four grandparents are there; Karl Stembol and his wife Caroline Jensen and at least two of their children are there; some of my mom and dad's siblings are also there. it was the place these Norwegians and Swedes in my family went to rest in peace. 

 

  I think the story of Karoline Johansen and Gunnerius Gulbrandsen (Harstad) is much more intriguing. Jens Magnus was born illegitimate in Østre Aker 15 Jan 1880 to (unmarried) Ungk. Gunerius Gulbrandsen and Pige Karoline Johansen. She was 26: 

 

#210 - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/6229/32124/99

 

They did not get married until 1 August 1880, in Grønland parish:

 

#87 - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5789/87

 

   In both the 1900 and 1910 Norway census, Gunnerius Albert Gulbrandsen Harstad is living along and marked as married, but Karoline is not in the same household. Yet Karoline left for America in 1906 as an unmarried woman with a traveling companion, Karl Stembol's wife's sister.

 

Unmarried - that's a puzzle. Did she just abandon her husband?
 

Endret Oktober 21 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

8 minutes ago, Richard Berg said:

 

Jackie,

  I don't know and never heard the name B. M. Foekdale. It's not surprising that she was buried at Mt. Olive cemetery. My parents and four grandparents are there; Karl Stembol and his wife Caroline Jensen and at least two of their children are there; some of my mom and dad's siblings are also there. it was the place these Norwegians and Swedes in my family went to rest in peace. 

 

  I think the story of Karoline Johansen and Gunnerius Gulbrandsen (Harstad) is much more intriguing. Jens Magnus was born illegitimate in Østre Aker 15 Jan 1880 to (unmarried) Ungk. Gunerius Gulbrandsen and Pige Karoline Johanssen. She was 26: 

 

#210 - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/6229/32124/99

 

They did not get married until 1 August 1880, in Grønland parish:

 

#87 - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/5789/87

 

   In both the 1900 and 1910 Norway census, Gunnerius Albert Gulbrandsen Harstad is living along and marked as married, but Karoline is not in the same household. Yet Karoline left for America in 1906 as an unmarried woman with a traveling companion, Karl Stembol's wife's sister.

 

Unmarried - that's a puzzle. Did she just abandon her husband?
 

Maybe she didn't want to live with him in the prison?

 

https://www.nb.no/items/7044c96b1ba4106bf155558341f102b7?page=27&searchText="gunerius harstad"

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

 

17de Mai, tysdag 14 Aug 1917 page 3 col 1

https://www.nb.no/items/64fcf9d84df0aa32ac3739855807ebee?page=1&searchText="gunerius harstad"

 

His dodsfallsprotokol is likely available.  And here is is #1123 top entry right page:

Oslo skifterett, AV/SAO-A-10383/G/Ga/Gac/L0009: Dødsfallsprotokoll, 1917-1919, p. 20
Quick link: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk20090515350849

Says he's Enkemand and has a brother in Harstad, Minnesota...  Never heard of Harstad Minnesota there is a Halstad Minnesota, though.

 

 

Endret Oktober 21 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

Jackie, I have no idea who James or Alice are.  (shoulder shrug). 

 

Here are the 1900 and 1910 Norway census images from Ancestry.

 

 

 

Yes, a prison caretaker - does that mean Warden? His biographies and obituaries give him high praise for his life and labors. but it looks like he was living at or very near the prison in 1900 (Grønlandsleret 44 (Bodsfængslet) 0001, 07).

 

Did Karoline divorce her husband, or just run away? Was divorce recognized by the Lutheran Church in Norway in 1900?

[Jackie K Marler]

3 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

Jackie, I have no idea who James or Alice are.  (shoulder shrug). Aren't you curious to know these relatives?

 

Here are the 1900 and 1910 Norway census images from Ancestry.

 

 

 

Yes, a prison caretaker - does that mean Warden? His biographies and obituaries give him high praise for his life and labors. but it looks like he was living at or very near the prison in 1900 (Grønlandsleret 44 (Bodsfængslet) 0001, 07).

 

Did Karoline divorce her husband, or just run away? Was divorce recognized by the Lutheran Church in Norway in 1900?

 

Wouldn't he have known if he was divorced?  Otherwise what would be the point?

 

Searching for the condition at the digitalarkivet finds this number of people listed as "fraskilt":

 

And this number just called "skilt":

 

Endret Oktober 21 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

Jackie, (Ellen, Anton, Anne, Gry,)

 

I finally finished reading all 9 pages of the  Norway Heritage topic you recommended. How fascinating, and how complicated, and how informative. I'm sure I've missed some key points.

 

Am I understanding that, in part at least, two questions to resolve were who is this Jenny Jørstad/Jaska person and is she the second wife of Peter Oluf Johansen, which looks to be the case?  

 

After reading through all of that topic, and through the many pages on this thread, my opinion is that this family was pretty broken. 

 

Johan Christiansen and Anne Marie Pettersdatter had five children. Maren Sophie was born in 1846. Ole Peter in 1849, living less than a year, Peter Oluf in 1851, Karoline Augusta in 1853 and Anne Marie in 1856, who only lived ten weeks and whose birth possibly killed her mother two weeks later. 

 

From Gry's post here on 16 Oct, if the younger children were "farmed out," Peter was 13 and Karoline was 11 at the time. Maren was 18. I'm familiar with this concept: my grandfather, Julia's husband, Emil Berggren (Berg in the US), was farmed out at the age of 10 to the Freemason's Childs Home in Stockholm, after his second parent died in 1875. He endured an uncharitable, loveless, strict life for five years, with bullying, degradation and hard labor. At the age of 15 he was turned out and could finally be independent, get a job and move out on his own. Pity poor Peter and Karoline if that was their situation.
 
Peter Oluf was clearly no saint. He moved to America with his two children and his wife in 1880, per your Norway Heritage post 1 Mar 2015 (http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/gen/vis/8/pe00000000941007), sending them back to Norway, and after his wife died in 1882 (in Norway it would appear), he got married to Jenny, had a child named Eva Sophie, got divorced. The judge ruled adultery, blaming Jenny, so Eva Sophie Johnson might not have been Peter's child. Then he got married to his third wife Ovidea Caspara, had two children, Otto (or Arthur?) and George, and then got divorced again and shortly thereafter murdered George and himself. Nice guy.

 

Karoline Augusta was not much better in my opinion. She had an illegitimate son, then married the father (a fine, upstanding civil servant according to the newspapers), but abandoned her husband and ran away to America, only to marry again. I wonder how he felt about losing his wife? As was said elsewhere, she might have "lost" her husband crossing the ocean. Not to be too harsh - everyone needs companionship.

 

Maren, my great-grandmother (yes, break out the champagne - I'm giving in), could have justifiably changed her name to anything (like Sofie Christiansdatter) to avoid being associated with her younger, despicable siblings. However, Maren probably died before either of her siblings had their first marriages. She could have just not liked them. Of the three of them who lived into adulthood, she seemed the best, though she died early, before 1881. This would be after my grandmother was born in 1876. I can understand why Julia and Karl would go live with someone else. But where was Julia for the ten years between 1881 and 1891?

Maren and Sigvard's children, Karl and Julia (baptized Julie) came to America, too, and thrived. I wonder how well in America Julia knew her Uncle Peter, Aunt Karoline and all her cousins. 

 

I'm still left with some discomfort about Johansdatter vs Christiansdatter on Maren's wedding record and her children's birth records. I guess I'll never know until there's some new document discovery.

Endret Oktober 24 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

11 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

 
Peter Oluf was clearly no saint. He moved to America with his two children and his wife in 1880, per your Norway Heritage post 1 Mar 2015 (http://digitalarkivet.arkivverket.no/en-gb/gen/vis/8/pe00000000941007), sending them back to Norway, and after his wife died in 1882 (in Norway it would appear), he got married to Jenny, had a child named Eva Sophie, got divorced. The judge ruled adultery, blaming Jenny, so Eva Sophie Johnson might not have been Peter's child (the legal principle is that any child born during a marriage is a product of that marriage)

. Then he got married to his third wife Ovidea Caspara, had two children, Otto (or Arthur?) and George, and then got divorced again and shortly thereafter murdered George and himself. Nice guy.  (Obviously, he had "women problems" since each one of his 3 wives left him at one time or another during their marriages.  Maybe he had some mental incapacity throughout his life?  That's why getting the documents on his death and George's death would be advised as a possible source about him and maybe more about the larger family dynamic.

 

Karoline Augusta was not much better in my opinion. She had an illegitimate son, then married the father (a fine, upstanding civil servant according to the newspapers), but abandoned her husband (not in evidence) and ran away to America, only to marry again (not in evidence). I wonder how he felt about losing his wife? As was said elsewhere, she might have "lost" her husband crossing the ocean. Not to be too harsh - everyone needs companionship.

 

Maren, my great-grandmother (yes, break out the champagne - I'm giving in)(yes it's a hap, hap, happy dance even though the acceptance seems ... well... grudging), could have justifiably changed her name to anything (like Sofie Christiansdatter) to avoid being associated with her younger, despicable (not in evidence) siblings
. However, Maren probably died before either of her siblings had their first marriages  (Peter in 1876 and Karoline in 1880). She could have just not liked them. Of the three of them who lived into adulthood, she seemed the best, though she died early, before 1881. This would be after my grandmother was born in 1876. I can understand why Julia and Karl would go live with someone else. But where was Julia for the ten years between 1881 and 1891?  Julie was living with Sig and his 2nd family in the 1885 Oslo census: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01053257107163

Maren and Sigvard's children, Karl and Julia (baptized Julie) came to America, too, and thrived. I wonder how well in America Julia knew her Uncle Peter, Aunt Karoline and all her cousins.  Julie knew her cousin Alice well enough to have her living in her home in 1920 and knew her aunt enough to participate in an announcement of her death.  Were there other ties between the cousins?  These are all the invisible threads binding them in the details of daily living.

 

I'm still left with some discomfort about Johansdatter vs Christiansdatter on Maren's wedding record and her children's birth records (and the  death certificate of Caroline Johnson gives her father as Christian Johnson, disinformation that seems to boil and repeat )I guess I'll never know until there's some new document discovery.

 

[Richard Berg]

3 hours ago, Jackie K Marler said:

 However, Maren probably died before either of her siblings had their first marriages  (Peter in 1876 and Karoline in 1880).

Who are you referring to? 

Peter Oluf took his own life in 1900.

I though Caroline is wife died in Norway in 1882: Johannes prestekontor Kirkebøker:  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/3109/19775/93 (No. 73); Also https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/267/pg00000000061158 ,

and Karoline his sister died in Chicago in 1925. Wasn't this the Caroline Thompson article you posted earlier? 

 

Another small mystery, though, is in the 1885 census you showed here:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01053257107163 . I see Sigvard and Julie, and Julia my grandmother. And then there's Petter Olsen b.1875 in Kristiania. Who is he?

 

He should be Sigvard and Maren's child, but not born in Hobøl where they were living in 1875? There's no church birth record for Peter born to Sigvard in Hobøl. In the detailed search on digitalarkivet I didn't find a Peter born to a Sigvard in "Kristiania".  He might be Julie and her first husband Olaves Olsen's child, but they were living in Østre Aker in 1875. Another small mystery.

 

I'm not begruding anymore. You've done a tremendous amount of work on my behalf, for which I'm grateful. The clincher was right up front with Alice Johnson (whoever she became) living with Emil and Julia in 1920, and the careful (ten-year-old) discussions of her parentage on the Norway Heritage site. My dad was 9 years old in 1920. I was a long way from being born, so I'm not surprised I have never heard of her. The whole story is one of those skeletons in the closet that no one would ever talk about.

 

[Jackie K Marler]

"Everything in the mud will out"

 

Peter's first marriage was in 1876 and Karoline's in 1880. 

 

Her name was given as Thompson in the death announcement but the only Caroline death record I could find with any detail to match her was Caroline Johnson's.  And even then there is that her father is named Christian Johnson (and we know him to be Johan Christianson) and born 20 November 1852 (it was 20 Nov 1853) in Spydeberg which checks out and with a husband named Cornelius and her actual husband's name is Gunerius and he was dead by 1925, actually dying in 1917.  I think I'd spend the pennies and get her original probably hand written d.c. too.

 

Every person has their own reality.  I am 5 years older than my brother and even in those few years difference, I know a number of relatives in my own family--my scary great grandmother, the Norwegian-- that he has no memory of.  That's my reality, his reality is a different group of memories and people.  "So it goes."

[Jackie K Marler]

#169 Ole Peter

Østre Aker prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10840/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. I 3, 1869-1875, s. 109
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060928070609