Difficulty tracing one of my great-grandmother's ancestry

[Richard Berg]

2 hours ago, Jackie K Marler said:

Peter's first marriage was in 1876 and Karoline's in 1880. 

 

Her name was given as Thompson in the death announcement but the only Caroline death record I could find with any detail to match her was Caroline Johnson's.  And even then there is that her father is named Christian Johnson (and we know him to be Johan Christianson) and born 20 November 1852 (it was 20 Nov 1853) in Spydeberg which checks out and with a husband named Cornelius and her actual husband's name is Gunerius and he was dead by 1925, actually dying in 1917.  I think I'd spend the pennies and get her original probably hand written d.c. too.

 

I confused Petere's marriage date, which I knew was 1876, with his and his sister's deaths. Sorry. I knew about Karoline's marriage date of 1880, too. I need one of those big bulletin boards on the wall that the cop shows use, with pictures and maps and calendars, and yarn tying it all together in a big spider web arrangement. Otherwise we can never figure out who Peter's other wife's other husband's other wife's other husband was. Or something like that. 

 

I presume you are not related to my ancestors or me, except we're probably 40th-cousins by being descendants of Harald FairHair, or maybe of Edward the First. Thanks again for all your help. 

Endret Oktober 25 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Yes, if it can be believed,  I have two lines of descent from Harald Hårfagre. On one he is 30 g grandfather and the other 28 great grandfather.  But it is not any research of my own so I don't know for sure! 

 

Edward the First I don't know,  but Lady Diana Spencer was a cousin. 

 

And I descend from Elizabeth Jackson Howe one of the witches hanged at Salem and John and Priscilla Alden of Mayflower fame and have common ancestry with war correspondent Ernie Pyle.

[Richard Berg]

On 10/19/2024 at 4:57 PM, Jackie K Marler said:

With wife #3 Ovidea / Ovidia Caspara Casperson, 2 sons one named Arthur (Arthur Otto?) and George Olaf Alfred.  Arthur is found with his mother in the 1900 US census, but he seems to disappear and then Caspara has a son of the same age as Arthur in later censuses only named Otto Haffner, during the marriage she had with Carl or Charles Haffner.  It seems possible that Arthur was adopted by her 2nd husband but it's not known if Carl / Charles Haffner had a prior marriage and or children.  As far as I know Otto Haffner who was married had no children.

 

Here's an interesting set of facts about Ovidia Caspara Casperson and Otto John William Haffner. I found this in a well-documented Ancestry family tree "Ekdahl-Seidel-Feddick-Pierce-Chellin-Brassill-Anderson". This will corroborate or confound the quote above. This is a recap of the census records you have seen already. 

 

According to Ekdahl, et. al., Otto J W Haffner was born in Chicago on 19 Oct 1889, to Charles August Haffner and Caspara Ovidia Haffner. I cannot tell whether this is the same person you identify as Otto Arthur/Arthur Otto Johnson, born about Oct 1889 to Peter Oluf Johansen and Ovidea Caspara Casperson. It would seem not. The above tree identifies Otto's mother as Caspara Ovidia Haffner, born in Drammen. Not a terribly common name. 

 

The (6 Jun) 1900 US Census indeed shows Caspara Johnson a 36 year old divorced woman living with her son Arthur, age 10, in Chicago.

 

 The (28 Apr) 1910 US Census shows "Caspara O" as the wife of Charles August Haffner of 22 years (would thus be married abt. 1888).  (In column 8, "m1" is first marriage. Charles is on the previous page.) This, of course, coincides with/contradicts the ELCA marriage record of Peter Oluf and Caspara on 17 Mar 1888. She is 46 in 1910, and has had 3 children, only one of whom is living now, according to the census. Three children - presumably Otto J W and Georg, and is the third one a deceased Arthur?? In this census, Otto J W is the unmarried son, age 20. 

 

 

The (14 Jan) 1920 US Census for her son does not list Otto living with his mother and father. At age 56, Caspara ("wife") is living with Charles in a different house in Chicago. Otto is now married to a woman named Alida Torkildsdatter, who is 32, born in Norway. Living with Otto and Alida is a cousin named Sarah Kvitle, also born in Norway, in 1887, age 31. 

 

Charles dies on 1 Jun 1922, according to Ekdahl et.al.

 

The (9 Apr) 1930 US Census shows Caspara again living with her son and daughter in law. She's now a widow, age 64(?). Otto and Alida are 40 and 42, and Sarah is not living with them. There are no children, and have never seem to have been any, unless they were born and died between censuses. The family has moved to Park Ridge, Illinois, a close-in suburb of Chicago. 

 

The (16 Apr) 1940 US Census is more of the same, with Caspara now 77. There is another cousin living with Otto and Alida, Elfrieda La Baron, widowed, age 58, born in Norway. They are still living in Park Ridge.

 

According to Ekdahl et.al., Caspara dies in Park Ridge on 15 Nov 1941. 

 

Otto and Alida move to Harvard, Illinois (McHenry County) in 1942. Alida dies there at age 80 on 5 Jan 1967, and Otto dies there in Sep 1975 at age 85. There is a Haffner Dairy farm there. 

 

Here's the kicker: There's no marriage record in their family tree for Charles and Caspara, and I haven't found a marriage record for them, either - maybe they never married. Another skeleton? 

 

Caspara and Peter married on 17 Mar 1888. It's reasonable for a son Otto to be born in October 1889. It's a wonder, though. Was Caspara still married to Peter in October '89? Maybe she had divorced Peter and married Charles even before Otto was born, or even before she was pregnant. Maybe Otto wasn't Peter's child, but Charles'. After all, Caspara "kept" Otto in the separation/divorce from Peter, but that would suggest it was Peter's child. Why would Caspara claim to be married to Charles for 22 years on the 1910 census? I guess it also begs the question of who and where is Arthur? 

 

"Verden er ikke stor" - It's a small-world. I grew up in Park Ridge in the decade of 1950, went away to university in 1960 and never went back to live there. It was a great place to grow up. 

 

If Otto was a Johnson, it might have been interesting to follow his descendants if there were any. If he's a Haffner, then he's no blood relation of my ancestors. I've beaten this "dead horse" enough. You can have the last word, if you want it.

 

Thanks again for this long discussion. I am busy incorporating the "new" Maren and siblings and families into my family tree. I don't quite know how to deal with Caspara!

Endret Oktober 27 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Hmmm.  The plot thickens.

A Charles Haffner, single living in West Town (a heavily Norwegian area in Chicago) b Norway 1863 living in 1900 census:   It says he came in 1892 and he is also a machinist as he is in 1910 and 1920 ...     Name Charles August Haffner Sex Male Age 59 Birth Date 29 Oct 1862 Birth Year (Estimated) 1863 Birthplace Christiana, Norway Residence Place Chicago, Cook, Ill Burial Date 3 Jun 1922 Burial Place Chicago, Cook, Ill Race W Father's Name Torval Haffner Father's Sex Male Father's Birthplace Norway Mother's Sex Female Mother's Birthplace Norway Spouse's Name Caspara Haffner Event Type Death Event Date 1 Jun 1922 Event Place Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States Event Place (Original) Chicago, Cook, Ill Cemetery Mt. Olive Source Details rn 14670     "Illinois Deaths and Stillbirths, 1916-1947", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N3TM-FBW : Sun Jul 21 23:29:50 UTC 2024), Entry for Charles August Haffner and Torval Haffner, 1 Jun 1922.   And here is a Carl August Torvalson leaving in 1880 heading to Chicago: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000011334     A possible in 1870 living in Kristiania: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01053324025471   The same Thorvald Andersen family in 1865 Kristiania: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01038027041047

Endret Oktober 27 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Charles and Caspara married in 1905:

"Illinois, Cook County Marriages, 1871-1968", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7DM-SXM : Tue Jul 09 01:17:43 UTC 2024), Entry for Carl A Haffner and Ovidi C Johnson, 14 Jan 1905.

 

Delayed birth cert (issued 1953) of Otto John William Johnson b 19 Oct 1889

Name	Otto John William Johnson
Sex	Male
Birth Date	19 October 1889
Birthplace	Chicago, Cook, Illinois
Race	White
Father's Name	Peter Olaf Johnson
Father's Sex	Male
Father's Birthplace	Smralenene Norway
Mother's Name	Ovidia Caspara Casperson
Mother's Sex	Female
Mother's Birthplace	Dramen Norway
Event Type	Birth Registration
Event Date	10 November 1953
Event Place	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States
Event Place (Original)	, Cook, Illinois
Certificate Number	200444

"Illinois, Cook County, Birth Certificates, 1871-1949", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q23S-MN1V : Sat Mar 09 22:52:49 UTC 2024), Entry for Otto John William Johnson and Peter Olaf Johnson, 10 November 1953.

 

Otto Johnson has the same birthdate as Otto Haffner.  And there are some invisible threads with this one too.

Endret Oktober 27 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

And Otto J Haffner was the informant on James P Johnson's death certificate:"Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1871-1998", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVRN-Q9JC : Mon Jul 22 22:01:41 UTC 2024), Entry for James P Johnsen and Peter Johnsen, 01 Nov 1958.

Name	James P Johnsen
Sex	Male
Age	81
Birth Date	21 Aug 1877
Birthplace	, , Norway
Residence Place	3500 N Lavergne Ave
Address	3500 N Lavergne Ave
Burial Date	4 Nov 1958
Burial Place	Chicago, , Illinois
Marital Status	Widowed
Race	White
Father's Name	Peter Johnsen
Informant's Name	Otto J Haffner
Event Type	Death
Event Date	01 Nov 1958
Event Place	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States
Event Place (Original)	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States
Funeral Home	Matz Funeral Home
Cemetery	Mt. Olive
Entry Number	80017     And James Johnson worked as a milkman and Otto was employed in the dairy industry, too.

[Jackie K Marler]

And Otto J Haffner was the informant on Deidrich Walbaum's d c too:

Name	Dietrich Walbaum
Sex	Male
Age

Birth Date

Birthplace	Germany
Residence Place	Chicago, Cook, Illinois
Address	2500 S Dearborn St
Burial Date	22 Mar
Marital Status	Married
Race	White
Father's Name	Unknown Unknown
Mother's Name	Unknown Unknown
Informant's Name	Otto J Haffner
Event Type	Death
Event Date

Event Place	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, United States
Event Place (Original)	Chicago, Cook, Illinois, Illinois, United States
Funeral Home	C W Anderson
Cemetery   "Illinois, Cook County Deaths, 1871-1998", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MC-HJTK : Sun Mar 10 19:00:50 UTC 2024), Entry for Dietrich Walbaum and Unknown Unknown, 19 Mar 1923.   Deidrich marries in 1894 a "Mrs. Emily Peterson" WALBAUM, DIDRICH PETERSON, EMILY (MRS) 1894-10-04     223827 COOK	Mt Olive

Endret Oktober 27 av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

An Emilie Kaspers. married with children one named Elfrieda leaving Norway in 1883:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000984925

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000983935

 

Their arrival in Baltimore:

"Maryland, Baltimore Passenger Lists, 1820-1948", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK6L-6FLW : Sat Mar 09 02:00:30 UTC 2024), Entry for Elfriede Kaspersen, 1883.

 

With the patronym Kaspers. my guess Emilie might be a sister to Ovidea.

 

An Elfrieda Clark living with Deidrich and Emily Walbaum in the 1920 census:

"United States Census, 1920", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJ3R-PMZ : Mon Mar 11 00:40:41 UTC 2024), Entry for Diedrich Wellbaum and Emelia Wellbaum, 1920.

 

For the sister of Elfrieda  named Magda # 85 bottom half of page:

Paulus prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10871/F/Fa/L0003: Ministerialbok nr. 3, 1879-1887, s. 55
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060922010584

 

Marriage of Laura Emilie Kaspersen and Johannes Arntsen #38

Paulus prestekontor Kirkebøker, AV/SAO-A-10871/G/Ga/L0005: Klokkerbok nr. 5, 1879-1893, s. 4
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061002040129

 

Here is a family tree identifying Laura Emilie Casperson and an Ovidea as children of Otto Bernhard Casperson:  https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K89C-GP8

 

Endret Oktober 28 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

Jackie:

 

1.  Noted this Find-a-Grave record, saying that Otto J. W. Haffner was born 2 Oct 1886.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/180499978/otto-j.-haffner

 

The grave marker is, unfortunately, covered with lichen, so it's only possible to read the "188" for his birthday. All the other records - the social security record, the draft records, the pictures that Ancestry holds - all indicate 19 Oct 1889 or "about 1890" for his birthday. 

 

2. Regarding Julia Olava Olsen's death certificate, I now have an official copy, and sadly both her parents are listed as "unknown."  Her son, my dad's brother Carl, was the informer, and he obviously didn't know. I suspect my dad didn't know either, nor did his two sisters. So that's a dead end for now. 

Endret November 1 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

4 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

Jackie:

 

1.  Noted this Find-a-Grave record, saying that Otto J. W. Haffner was born 2 Oct 1886.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/180499978/otto-j.-haffner

 

The grave marker is, unfortunately, covered with lichen, so it's only possible to read the "188" for his birthday. All the other records - the social security record, the draft records, the pictures that Ancestry holds - all indicate 19 Oct 1889 or "about 1890" for his birthday. 

 

2. Regarding Julia Olava Olsen's death certificate, I now have an official copy, and sadly both her parents are listed as "unknown."  Her son, my dad's brother Carl, was the informer, and he obviously didn't know. I suspect my dad didn't know either, nor did his two sisters. So that's a dead end for now. 

1 Findagrave is only as good as the poster sometimes.  I can read through the lichen (use original size) and the year of birth is clearly 1889 not 1886, no full dates at all except for his and Alida's marriage.  The poster person at FAG has done some other research for the full date or what?  Like a box of chocolates....

 

                                    é

 

2. Bummer you got an obituary? Or the customary funeral book? 

 

 

 

 

Endret November 1 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

I thought you might be interested in this new information.

 

I received in the mail from my cousin a box containing a hundred pages of documentation and pictures relating to my father's side of the family, which includes my grandmother Julie (Julia) Olava Olsen. As I mentioned before, her death certificate does not name her parents, as the informant (my dad's brother) was evidently unaware of their names. My dad probably was, too. So we're past that. Given the history of Peter Oluf's adventures, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't much talk around the dinner table in the old days about Julia's mother's family. 

 

Unfortunately, among all these papers is not much about her parents. Except my cousin's wife, the family genealogist (Mary Lou), repeatedly names Julia's parents Sigurd/Sigvard/Sigvart Olsen/Olesen and Sofie Karen Christiansdatter. I cannot find or have not yet found any documentation among all these pages verifying the mother's name. She also notes that Sofie and Sigurd were married on 17 Nov 1869, again with no obvious documentation. This does not agree with what we know now. To be kind, I have to remember she's doing all this work in the early 2000's with the help of a friend in Sweden who chases stuff down on paper. 

 

Of course, I have the nagging twitch in my brain about Christiansdatter vs Johansen. So, I've spent a fruitful couple of days on digitalarkivet looking for Karen Sofie Christiansdatter. 

 

There is a Karen Sofie Christiansdatter born on 29 Nov 1846 (bap. 26 Dec):

Eidsberg vicarage church records, AV/SAO-A-10905/F/Fa/L008: 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/2/128   #100

She was born to Christian Svendsen and Olea Olsdatter. They had nine other children, none of whom were named Karoline. I did not spend any more time looking for those children's husbands and children (for an "Alice") -- no point if there's not a Karoline Augusta Christiansdatter. 

 

So, despite what many Ancestry family trees look like, with a Karen Sofie Christiansdatter born in November 1846, I can throw away my notes about this one and her parents and sibs. Not literally, but you know what I mean.

 

These pages also included a note saying that, according to Mary Lou's Karl Anton Stembol family history, Julia emigrated to the US with "Aunt Alice" (!) (Her quotes) in 1893. Well, it must have been her cousin. From my own research some time ago, I had pegged her (not them, I didn't know about Alice) coming to America in either 1891, as a 15 year old, or in 1895. 1893 is a good clue, and I hope I can settle this with more certainty. I will see if I can get the Stembol family history, though it probably will go to a Stembol descendant. 

 

That's where I am now. 

Endret November 5 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

The passenger list of Alice's arrival in New York should be viewable to see if Julie is on it as well.  This quote from NorwayHeritage page a post by Anton:

"

Posted - 03/01/2015 :  04:33:50

Here are the three arriving into New York. Here she is listed as a Norwegian. NAME: Alice Johnsen ARRIVAL DATE: 30 Aug 1890 BIRTH DATE: abt 1880 AGE: 10 GENDER: Female ETHNICITY/ NATIONALITY: Norwegian PLACE OF ORIGIN: Norway PORT OF DEPARTURE: Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland DESTINATION: United States of America PORT OF ARRIVAL: New York, New York SHIP NAME: City of Chester SEARCH SHIP DATABASE: Search for the City of Chester in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database SEARCH HAMBURG PASSENGER LISTS: Search for the departure in Hamburg Passenger Lists"

[Richard Berg]

Three contradictions here.

 

    First, we have Alice traveling to America in 1880: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941010  as a 10 month old. At some point she must have gone back to Norway with her mother Caroline Larsen. Caroline died in Norway in 1882.

 

    Second, we have Alice traveling (really emigrating) to America in 1890:

 https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634  with her brother and father. These are the images I showed earlier (above, page 3?). 

 

     Finally, Julia and Karl arere living with their Aunt Karoline Harstad on 1 Jan 1891. https://www.digitalarkivet.no/census/person/pf01052721030503

Doubtful (not impossible) that she traveled to America in 1880 as a 4 year old, and then traveled back to Norway. 

 

The US Censuses for 1900, 1910 and 1920 all post her emigration year as 1893. Somewhere there's a real emigration and immigration record for Julia for 1893. 

[Anton Hagelee]

1 hour ago, Jackie K Marler said:

The passenger list of Alice's arrival in New York should be viewable to see if Julie is on it as well.  This quote from NorwayHeritage page a post by Anton:

 

Here is the original 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7488/records/8600608?tid=&pid=&queryid=fe7544ab-96c4-4290-9f22-bbe97c2cbbdc&_phsrc=gRI6&_phstart=successSource

 

 

 

These Johnsons on this ship

 

Search results

View Record	Name	Birth Year	Arrival Date	Departure Port	Ethnicity/ Nationality	Ship Name	View Passenger List	View Ship Image

Search results

View Record	Name	Birth Year	Arrival Date	Departure Port	Ethnicity/ Nationality	Ship Name	View Passenger List	View Ship Image
View Record	Jans Johnsen	abt 1879	30 Aug 1890	Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland	Norwegian	City of Chester
View Record	Alice Johnsen	abt 1880	30 Aug 1890	Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland	Norwegian	City of Chester
View Record	Johnsen	abt 1860	30 Aug 1890	Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland		City of Chester

Endret November 5 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

This is the Johnson on the next page from Alice.

 

Johnsen

in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

NameJohnsen

GenderMale

Age30

Birth Dateabt 1860

Departure PortLiverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland

DestinationUSA

Arrival Date30 Aug 1890

Arrival PortNew York, New York, USA

Ship NameCity of Chester

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7488/records/8600743?tid=&pid=&queryid=0ee67481-bea0-42b1-821e-975282ffe61d&_phsrc=gRI9&_phstart=successSource

 

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Here is the DA record 

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

 

Jens age 11

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027633

 

And a Peter age 30

 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027632

 

 

 

 

 

 

Endret November 5 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

Probably overkill but here is the whole family leaving Norwayl 

 

Peter Johnsen

in the Norway, Emigration Records, 1867-1960

NamePeter JohnsenGenderMannlig (Male)Marital StatusGift (Married)Emigration Age30Birth Dateabt 1860Last Known Residence PlaceAmerikaEmigration Date15. aug 1890 (15 Aug 1890)Emigration PlaceOslo, NorgeEmigration DestinationNew YorkEmigration ShipMontebello

Household Members (Name)AgeRelationship

Peter Johnsen30

Jens Johnsen11Barn (Child)

Alice Johnsen10Barn (Child)

Bertha Olsen20Pige (Girl)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/61757/records/628770?tid=&pid=&queryid=acb5a6dd-9a25-4927-9a0d-3de5f1250dc8&_phsrc=gRI11&_phstart=successSource

 

 

 

Endret November 5 av Anton Hagelee

[Richard Berg]

Hi Anton,  Yes, this is Peter, Jens and Alice in their final trip back to America in 1890. Notice that Peter already lists his home as America. I know Ancestry tagged Bertha Olsen as belonging to Peter's "family," but I think that's an error on their part. I say this because on the page you show, she is not included within the brace that surrounds Peter, Jens and Alice. So, she's just an unaccompanied 20 year old "girl" who is not even going to New York, wherever "Bloo...??" is. 

 

I really would like to find these original pages on digitalarkivet.no, and particularly the pages for 1893, which is supposedly when Julia came to America.

 

Thanks for your interest. 

[Anton Hagelee]

17 minutes ago, Richard Berg said:

 

I really would like to find these original pages on digitalarkivet.no, and particularly the pages for 1893, which is supposedly when Julia came to America.

 

This thread is becoming quite long and I am getting quite lost but have you looked at this emigration record fromm 1893,

 

Julia Johnsen

in the Norway, Emigration Records, 1867-1960

NameJulia Johnsen

GenderKvinnelig

Emigration Age15

Birth Dateabt 1878

Last Known Residence PlaceKr. A.

Emigration Date7. apr 1893 (7 Apr 1893)

Emigration PlaceOslo, Norge

Emigration DestinationNew York

Emigration ShipAngelo

RelationshipPige (Girl)

Household Members (Name)AgeRelationship

Kristian Aug. Früs19

Kaspara Johnsen27Pige (Girl)

Julia Johnsen15Pige (Girl)

Alise Johnsen10Barn (Child)

Otto Johnsen11/12Barn (Child)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-content/view/653646:61757

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

In spite of the few incorrect notes, marital status, residence, patronym, but what are the odds that there would be a Kaspara, Julie, Alice and Otto altogether that aren't related to this search?  It would seem to fit a pattern, the new wife goes back to Norway with the new baby and other relatives come along on return to US?

 

Otto: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

Alise: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492774

Julia: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492773

Kaspara: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492772

Endret November 5 av Jackie K Marler

[Anton Hagelee]

Here is the arrival of the group

 

Julia Johanson

in the New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

NameJulia Johanson

GenderFemale

Ethnicity/ NationalityNorwegian

Age15

Birth Dateabt 1878

Departure PortSouthampton, England

Arrival Date25 Apr 1893

Arrival PortNew York, New York, USA

Residence PlaceChristiana

Ship NameChester

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7488/records/4000317372?tid=&pid=&queryid=16befb8b-2590-4690-9ecc-eeab3e38e102&_phsrc=kQy18&_phstart=successSource

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Well I am a little less lost now as I found the Berg family tree on Ancestry. My confusion was not remembering that Kaspera is Ovidea Caspara Casperson, married to Peter and with son Otto. 

 

I am going to link the tree here so I can go back to it. 

 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/184760064/person/282622008653/facts

 

If I have got the relationship correct this table should be correct 

 

1893 emigration record                   should be about                      Parent is 

 

Kaspara Johnsen27Pige (Girl)         should be about 30 yrs old

Julia Johnsen15Pige (Girl)                should be about 17 yrs old      mother is Marin Sophia

Alice Johnsen10Barn (Child)           should be about 14 yrs old       father is Peter Oluf

Otto Johnsen11/12Barn (Child)        should be 3-4 yrs old f             ather is Peter Oluf

 

Since Marin Sophia and Peter Oluf are siblings the children are all steps

 

 

Endret November 6 av Anton Hagelee

[Richard Berg]

14 hours ago, Jackie K Marler said:

In spite of the few incorrect notes, marital status, residence, patronym, but what are the odds that there would be a Kaspara, Julie, Alice and Otto altogether that aren't related to this search?  It would seem to fit a pattern, the new wife goes back to Norway with the new baby and other relatives come along on return to US?

 

Otto: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

Alise: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492774

Julia: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492773

Kaspara: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492772

 

And this coming from the person who doesn't believe in coincidences!  😉  It's a wonderful mystery. We have to assume Julia Johnson is in fact Julia Olava Olsen, but why would she hide her name? Maybe finding the immigration record at Ellis Island will answer some questions. 

 

Yes, something is rotten in Norway.  Summarizing (again) what Anton wrote, Caspara, born Nov 1863, would be 29; Julia, born in Feb 1876, would be 17; Alice, born in Jan 1879, would be 14, and Otto, born in Oct 1889, would be 3.  

 

If Julia were actually a Johnson, not an Olsen, she would have had to have been born to Caroline Larsen in May 1878 in order to be 15. That would have to be exactly midway between the births of Jens and Alice, with no months to spare either direction. So Julia is not likely a real Johnson. 

 

Peter also traveled back and forth several times between 1880 and 1890. It must have cost him a fortune.

 

Jackie (anyone?), from the summary document page for emigration, for example, 

Otto: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

how does one find the literal, handwritten document page (what Anton showed above)? I'm not talking about going through Ancestry, but rather how to find this on digitalarkivet.no.

Endret November 6 av Richard Berg

[Richard Berg]

14 hours ago, Anton Hagelee said:

Well I am a little less lost now as I found the Berg family tree on Ancestry. 

I am going to link the tree here so I can go back to it. 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/184760064/person/282622008653/facts

 

Anton, I'm sorry. I knew you were an Ancestry member, and I should have provided you with this link before. I'm glad you found it on your own.

[Jackie K Marler]

Well if there is a link to the scanned image at the digitalarkivet site it would be right here or just under, but I don't see one, so perhaps Ancestry or maybe even familysearch are the places to get that:

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