Difficulty tracing one of my great-grandmother's ancestry

[Anton Hagelee]

3 hours ago, Richard Berg said:

 

Jackie (anyone?), from the summary document page for emigration, for example, 

Otto: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

how does one find the literal, handwritten document page (what Anton showed above)? I'm not talking about going through Ancestry, but rather how to find this on digitalarkivet.no.

 

I will send a message to Bjørn Andreas Johansønn Løkken of this forum as I know he regularly searches the Norway Emigration Records for the Oslo politidistrikt. We will see if he can direct us. 

 

[Richard Berg]

Here's a bit of a mystery solved regarding Peter and family's trip to America in August 1880.

 

21 Aug 1880    Peter departs for America with Caroline, Jens, Alice and Caspara Larsen 
    Peter: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941007

    Caroline: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941008

    Jens: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941009

    Alice: https://.wwwdigitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941010

    Caspara Larsen: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941011

 

First, the emigration record for Caroline, in which she is called Pauline, could be a transcription error - A poorly scripted "Caroline" could very well be misread as "Pauline". She would be 25, though, if her age were correct. Close enough?

 

Incidentally, here's Caroline's birth record: [#164]  https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/656/392 

 

The real interesting find, is that Caroline Sophie Jensen has a sister named Caspara.

Larentze Caspara Larsen - b.1859, bp. 1860, [#278] https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/625/123, born to Lars Olsen and Petronelle Jensdatter (Jensen).

 

She also has a brother Otto August Larsen, b. 1862, bp. 1862, [#288] https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/626/32 . There may be more siblings; I didn't pursue this further. It is Caroline's sister who travels to America in 1880. 

 

But there still are more puzzles about the travels of this family. Where are the two trips (or more) eastbound back to Norway, since Alice, for example, travels west to America in 1880, 1890, and 1893:
1880: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941010
1890: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634
1893: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492774

 

Peter, Jens, Otto, and maybe Caspara (the wife) must also go back at some times. I'm still trying to get my head around this. I haven't found any "arrivals" data in Norway, or for that matter "departures" in America. This will be interesting to pursue.

[Anton Hagelee]

24 minutes ago, Richard Berg said:

Peter, Jens, Otto, and maybe Caspara (the wife) must also go back at some times. I'm still trying to get my head around this. I haven't found any "arrivals" data in Norway, or for that matter "departures" in America. This will be interesting to pursue.

 

It is my understanding that these trips are for the most part not documented. Norway did not seem to care who came into Norway through the years of interest to you, and the United States did not care who left its shores during that time frame. 

 

 

[Richard Berg]

2 hours ago, Anton Hagelee said:

It is my understanding that these trips are for the most part not documented. Norway did not seem to care who came into Norway through the years of interest to you, and the United States did not care who left its shores during that time frame. 

 

 

There still should be passenger logs somewhere for the eastbound trips, but they may be impossible to find. 

 

I'm trying to see what happened and when. I thought I would post this timeline I'm developing, including a few points relating to my grandmother, Julie/Julia.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

20 Feb 1876          Julie (Julia) Olava Olsen is born

18 Nov 1876         Julie’s uncle Peter marries Caroline Larsen in Norway

21 Aug 1877         Jens Peter Sofus Johnson is born (Julie's cousin)

16 Jan 1879          Alice (Alise) Pauline Johnson is born (Julie's cousin)

12 Aug 1880         Julie Olsen’s mother (Maren Sophie Johansen) dies

21 Aug 1880         Peter departs for America with Caroline, Jens, Alice and Caspara Larsen

Peter: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941007

Caroline: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941008

Jens: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941009

Alice: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941010

Caspara Larsen: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000941011

2 Oct 1880            Kaspara Kasperson departs for America (Baltimore)

digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000942300

TBD                         Peter?, Caroline, Jens? and Alice? return to Norway

5 Nov 1882           Caroline Larsen dies in Oslo, Norway

16 May 1883        Peter returns alone to America (SS Baltic)  (where are his children? in Norway or America?)

ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7488/images/NYM237_465-0342?pId=12434184

24 May 1884        Peter marries Jenny Amalie Jørstad in Chicago

18 Jun 1885          Iva Sophie Johnson is born

10 Dec 1887         Peter divorces Jenny in Chicago

17 Mar 1888         Peter marries Ovidea Caspara (Kaspara) Casperson in Chicago

19 Oct 1889          Otto Johnson (becomes Haffner) is born in Chicago

TBD                         Peter, Caspara, Jens?, Alice? and Otto travel back to Norway? (Are Jens and Alice already there?)

15 Aug 1890         Peter departs for America with Jens and Alice

Peter: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027632

Jens: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027633

Alice: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

Ancestry.com - New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

1 Jan 1891             Julia Olsen is living with her aunt Karoline Augusta Harstad in Oslo

TBD                         When does Alice go back to Norway, and with whom?

7 Apr 1893            Caspara, Julia, Alice, and Otto emigrate to America.¹

Kaspara: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492772

Julia: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492773

Alise: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492774

Otto: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

Ancestry.com - New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

22 Jul 1895           George Olaf Alfred Johnson is born in Chicago

10 Jun 1899          Julia Olsen marries Emil Berggren in Chicago

17 Mar 1900         Alice Johnson marries Samuel Swanson in Chicago

4 Jun 1900            Peter and Caspara are (separated or) divorced (1900 US Census date)

29 Aug 1900         James Peter Johnson marries Marie C. Strand in Chicago

17 Nov 1900         Peter murders George and takes his own life

TBD 1888-1900  Caspara marries Charles August Haffner (which Caspara? Jensen or Casperson?)

 

¹ To misquote the Bard, something is rotten in Norway.  Kaspara, born Nov 1863, would be 29; Julia, born in Feb 1876, would be 17; Alice, born in Jan 1879, would be 14, and Otto, born in Oct 1889, would be 3. These are different ages from those represented on the immigration record, as you pointed out, Anton.

Endret November 8 av Richard Berg

[Jackie K Marler]

Jens and Alice and their mother had to have returned to Norway since there is their listings in the poverty matters database from the mid 1880s, following the death of their mother.  At first their maternal grandfather cared for them but  he gave up the care for them and they were assigned to the state for care in 1884.  The last file on each Jens (James) and Alice says "reiste til Amerika."

 

Alice Pauline

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/51/pc00000004703340

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0002: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 1-812, 1879-1887, s. 547
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19016000000547

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0002: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 1-812, 1879-1887, s. 548
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19016000000548

 

Alice Pauline:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/51/pc00000004704602

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0004: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 501-1000, 1887-1897, s. 12
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19018000000012

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0004: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 501-1000, 1887-1897, s. 13
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19018000000013

 

Jens Peter Sofus:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/51/pc00000004704596

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0004: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 501-1000, 1887-1897, s. 10
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19018000000010

 

Fattigvesenet, OBA/A-20045/H/Hd/L0004: Manntallsprotokoll. Mnr. 501-1000, 1887-1897, s. 11
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/od19018000000011

 

Passenger lists are not well known for excellent consistent spelling nor for penmanship.  Years ago I was searching for a person arriving on a ship in New York.  It was a one page form and the ship's name was spelled 3 different ways on the form!

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

On 11/6/2024 at 8:05 AM, Richard Berg said:

 

Jackie (anyone?), from the summary document page for emigration, for example, 

Otto: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492775

how does one find the literal, handwritten document page (what Anton showed above)? I'm not talking about going through Ancestry, but rather how to find this on digitalarkivet.no.

Edited Wednesday at 08:20 AM by Richard Berg

 

Try this way for those passengers leaving Oslo. I have not used this route as the Ancestry.com is transcribed allowing me to search by name, birth year etc. I need to explore this part of DA to see if it can be used easier than just searching through the pages. 

 

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/db/browse?archives[]=no-a1450-02000000001025&archive_key=&start_year=1870&end_year=1920&tags[]=118&text=

 

 

 

 

[Richard Berg]

Jackie, 
This information about the Poverty Relief is very interesting and insightful. Thank you for finding it. 

 

You said Jens and Alice went to live with their maternal grandfather (Lars Olsen). Peter traveled back to Norway with Caroline, Jens and Alice sometime after August 1880. When they made the trip back to Norway, whenever they went, Caroline was probably already sick with tuberculosis (phtisis, on her death record). If their trip back was in 1882, it might have been urgent to get back to her family there for her children's sake.

 

I put together the four pages from the 1878-1897 (later) edition of The Fattigvesenet book. I did a little image enhancement so it might be easier to read the text and compare the information for the two siblings. First, the left-hand page:

     [Image: PoorLeft]

As you see, Jens' ledger entry says his dad left to go back to America on 27 Jul 1882, before Caroline died on 5 Dec 1882. This matches his emigration record (https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000000974248). But I could not find a corresponding immigration record for the US (yet) .

 

It does seem strange to me that Peter would leave his wife dying in Norway to get back to America. Her disease would have been spectacularly obvious at the time, marked by intense and increasingly debilitating symptoms six months ahead of dying, which would have been unmistakable to those around her. 

 

Caroline Larsen had eight siblings, one of whom was Karen Helene Larsdatter/Olsen, living at Vinkelgaden Nr. 16. She was 34 and seven years older than her sister, when Caroline died at the same address. 

 

I did have some questions about the Fattigvesenet notations. I understand what's going on on the left-hand page, where their names are. This is where you see Karen stepping up as the sponsor. Jens is sponsored by a person I don't recognize.

It's the right-hand page where I'm confused by all the "date" and other notations.

    [Image: PoorRight]

The first three columns: I don't quite understand the headings, but there are dates as well as other numbers (such as "309-84"), not to mention that the handwriting is not too easy to read. But the dates in 1891 (Alice) and 1890 (Jens) are after they both have returned to America in August 1890. The other columns, "Extra Support" and "Praise" (Approbation), I can't read the remarks. If someone can help me understand all these things, that would be wonderful. 
 

[Jackie K Marler]

Martin Andreassen Poverud was the person / farm to which Jens was "farmed out."

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01037030002269

 

In Jens' listing extra -Unders....

Transp.  (I assume transportation cost) of 8 Kr  16 Jan 1888

Sygehjaelp (since its under the same number receipt or date I assume the transport to the hospital where there was also a charge of) 10 Kr  16 Jan 1888

Klader   Clothing  10 Kr.  28 Feb 1889

 

Earlier you were wondering about the messed up ages on the other move / visit, there may be an explanation for that.  Some ticket prices were based on the age of the person using--might be an incentive to cut a corner or two.

Endret November 11 av Jackie K Marler

[Richard Berg]

Jackie,

 

Martin Andreasen and Karen Helene Olsen are married. When you said before, "farm out," does this mean they are actually living with Martin and Karen, and the state pays them for this service, or are Alice and Jens living in some "orphanage" and being sponsored/paid for by Martin and Karen? 

 

If they are not living on the farm (literally), this begs the question about how Peter, Jens and Alice could have traveled to America in August 1890:

Peter: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027632

Jens: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027633

Alice: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/8/pe00000001027634

and yet apparently are still in the care of ("farmed out" to) Martin and Karen in Nov '91 (Alice) and Nov '90 (Jens). 

 

Alice travels to America again in April 1893, for the last time:

Alise: digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9/og00000000492774

so somehow she got back to Norway. And is she still living with Martin and Karen? Maybe she never left in 1890.  I couldn't find an 1891 census record for Martin and Karen in Akershus or Oslo counties, which might have illuminated Alice and Jens' living situation.

[Jackie K Marler]

Martin Andreassen abbreviated in 1891 census.  Also Poverud is also called Jorgenspladsen:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01052706003512

 

Neither Alice nor Jens are counted there in 1891.

[Richard Berg]

I did see that census record before, too, but I dismissed it - wife's name is Karen Helene, not Karen Johanne (Olds. is Olsen or Olsdatter? could be Olsen but otherwise Larsdatter). Maybe I shouldn't have dismissed it so easily.

 

But, hey, what's a few name changes when you consider Maren Sophie Johansen/Christiansdatter/Olsen, or is Karen Sophie, or Sofie Maren, or Sofie Karen, none of whom died in Oslo in 1880. I imagine census takers the world over get tired once in a while.  😉

 

Here's an interesting factoid: In Chicago, during the 1900's decade, the city father's revised the street numbering scheme to make them uniform with respect to the city blocks (8 blocks per mile, one hundred address numbers per block), and also renamed many of the street names as well to eliminate duplicates existing in different parts of the city. Thus, Peter Oluf Johansen, who died in November of 1900, was living at 710 N. Irving Ave, according to the June 1900 US Census. That address became 1351 N. Bell Avenue later on, a neighborhood close to Humboldt Park and in the "West Town" area. The houses were renumbered first; the names changed later, sometime around 1911. 

 

https://www.chsmedia.org/client/en_US/public/search/results?qu=renumbering

 

[Richard Berg]

Jackie, Anton,

I don't know if this is the right person or not, but I found a death protocol record for a woman named Maren Olsen (at the bottom of the page. Nr. 208):

 

Probate records: Oslo skifterett, AV/SAO-A-10383/F/Fb/Fba/Fbaa/L0001: Navneregister for sluttede bo - avd. I og II, 1855-1897 - Scanned archives - The National Archives of Norway

(https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/262768/80)

 

And moving ahead in the same document to that record Nr. 208 I see this at the next to last entry:

 

Probate records: Oslo skifterett, AV/SAO-A-10383/F/Fb/Fbb/Fbba/L0005: Skifteliste for sluttede bo - avd. I og II, 1871-1882 - Scanned archives - The National Archives of Norway

(https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/58587/135)

 

This is for “merchant Maren Olsen, estate in bankruptcy.” The date of 17 Dec 1878 is probably her date of death. The remarks loosely say that probate was “Closed 20 Mar 1880. Dividend of 2.725% to the unlimited creditors. “ 

 

You don’t easily go from that page, which appears to have a number of dates, I’m guessing interim probate hearings, to a page that may actually contain a text that spells out the terms and possibly the heirs. Again, this seems like it requires turning every page. So, I turned every page in every volume pointed to by the first link above, looking at 19 Dec 1878 (the first date mentioned), and I finally found her difficult to read 2-page record at this location:

 

 Probate records: Oslo skifterett, AV/SAO-A-10383/H/Hb/Hbb/L0003: Skifteregistreringsprotokoll, 1871-1883, p. 331b-332a - Scanned archives - The National Archives of Norway

(https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/34172/334)

 

 

[Richard Berg]

Here are thhe two pages of the probate statement. I'm working on translating the two text paragraphs.