Finnes Josephine Maximiliane Muller (1850-?), gift Brede, fra Larvik, død i San Fransisco ca. 1890?

[Arne Brede]

Hei!

Vil gjerne ha litt hjelp til framgangsmåte for å avklare et dødsfall ca. 1890 i USA, trolig i/rundt San Fransisco, på første kone til min tippoldefar som førte Brede-navnet fra Bergen til Lofoten.

 

Josephine M Muller, 16 år 6 mnd, giftet seg i Bergen 25.10.1866 med min tippoldefar Johan Ernst Brede (1844-1914) fra Bergen. Dette var første ekteskap for begge.

Ca. to uker senere, 08.11.1866, ble deres felles barn, Carl Waldemar Brede, født i Larvik, hvor ekteparet ble boende en kortere tid.

 

I løpet av 1869 har Johan Ernst trolig flyttet tilbake til Bergen for å begynne som baker hos sin svoger bakermester Johannes Olsen, Strømmen, Bergen. Johan bodde i alle fall i Bergen i 1873 fordi han avga flere hjemstandsforklaringer til Politiet vedrørende sin far Johan Ernst Brede (1808-1882). Under FT 1870 for Larvik er sønnen Carl W oppført som dattersønn hos enkefru Zara Muller; mor til Josephine. Josephine finnes ikke oppført noen steder i Norge ved FT 1870 så vel som ved senere FT. Josephine Müller, som gift kone, og Waldemar Müller, som sønn, emigrerte fra Kristiania 05.01.1875 til San Fransisco.

 

Johan Ernst fikk oppløst ekteskapet ved Kongelig Bevilling av 13.03.1897. Fra erklæringer i saksdokumentene fra naboer til Brede/Muller opplyses at hun reiste to ganger til Amerika, første gang alene eller rykte vis sammen med en mann; noe jeg kan tidfeste til ca. 1871. Dette  ansees å være grunnen til at hun ikke opptrer i FT 1870. Neste gang hun reiste til Amerika, og nå med sin sønn, har jeg tidfestet til ca. 1876. Dette stemmer godt med emigrasjonsdokumentene. En av dem som avga forklaringer var utleier for ekteparet i Larvik og hadde en sønn som drev som skipsfører trolig i San Fransisco området. Han deltok i begravelsen til Josephine, noe jeg antar kan ha vært ca. 1888.

 

Håper at det noen som kan hjelpe meg litt🙂!

 

Vennlig hilsen

Arne Petter Brede

 

[Nina Tiller]

Mor og sønn kommer til New York 1875

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-RQS9-GF?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVSK-MZ4L&action=view&cc=1849782&lang=no&groupId=

[Anton Hagelee]

Josephine Müller

NameJosephine Müller

GenderKvinnelig

Marital StatusGift (Married)

Emigration Age24

Birth Dateabt 1851

Last Known Residence PlaceKristiansand

Emigration Date6. jan 1875 (6 Jan 1875)

Emigration PlaceOslo, Norge

Emigration ShipAngelo

RelationshipHustru (Wife)

Household Members (Name)AgeRelationship

Knüd Engebretsen25

Josephine Müller24Hustru (Wife)

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7488/records/16177626?tid=&pid=&queryId=5a9480ee-b415-4798-9c20-09497d567e98&_phsrc=HeM21&_phstart=successSource

 

Hun er ikke gift med Knüd Engebretsen, transkripsjonen litt feil.

 

Endret Søndag 22:20 av Anton Hagelee

[Jackie K Marler]

So the marriage was dissolved legally in 1897, he wouldn't have had to have done that if it was known that she died in 1888-1896 in US, correct?

 

Zara Muller / Møller was born in Skien which is a lot closer to Larvik than to Bergen in the 1870 census. The crossed out daughter Caroline was born in Laurvig in 1843, and the two grand sons were born in Larvig also:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01053339000421

 

Here Zara is in 1865 in Bergen living with Caroline and Caroline's family:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/census/person/pf01038249025512

 

Caroline's confirmation:

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/279/pk00000001809993

 

#49 Caroline Mathilde's b/baptism:

Larvik kirkebøker, AV/SAKO-A-352/F/Fa/L0002: Ministerialbok nr. I 2, 1825-1847, s. 92
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20061117020157

 

#19 right side of page Josephine's b / bapt:

Larvik kirkebøker, AV/SAKO-A-352/G/Ga/L0003a: Klokkerbok nr. I 3A, 1830-1870, s. 127
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070502640484

 

#3 in 1873 Zara's death :

Larvik kirkebøker, AV/SAKO-A-352/F/Fa/L0007: Ministerialbok nr. I 7, 1871-1883, s. 115
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb10311605110092

 

#2 Sara's dodfallsprotokol:

Larvik byfogd, AV/SAKO-A-218/H/Ha/Hab/L0003: Dødsanmeldelsesprotokoll, 1862-1887
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk60074060000055

Says she has 5 children and of these 2 are in America

 

#66 Johan Fredrik Muller dodfallsprotokol:

Larvik byfogd, AV/SAKO-A-218/H/Ha/Hab/L0003: Dødsanmeldelsesprotokoll, 1862-1887
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/sk60074060000022

 

 

 

Endret Mandag 19:41 av Jackie K Marler

[Arne Brede]

Hi Jackie!

Josephine left her husband shortly after the wedding. It is known that the couple lived in Larvik in 1868. Johan returned to Bergen about 1869 and stayed there at least until 1873. Unfortunately this was not a successful marriage.

 

Several years later John wanted to marry another woman and he needed to formally end the marriage with Josephine before the next marriage.  There was no formal information in Norway neither she lived nor had died. 

 

Besr regards

Arne Petter Brede

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

Thanks for reply.  What I was thinking with all the stuff about her family that they may have known about her fate and kept the information to themselves.  So who was the other one in America when her mother died?  Maybe the one in America knew what happened to Josephine or maybe their area of settlement was some place other than San Francisco?

[Arne Brede]

Thanks for your reply! There were a lot of stuff in many families at that time!

 

The other person that travelled with Josephine was her son Waldemar; only 16 years younger than his mother! I have no info about Waldemar.

Today I got information saying that they medio 1875 arrived to New York from Glasgow .

 

Short info about Johan Ernst; my great-great-gradfather:

1866: His first son Carl Waldemar with Josephine; a married couple

1872: His second son Karl K J Brede with an unmarried woman; they are my great-grandfather/-mother; Johan still married with Josephine!

1899: His second legal marriage with an unmarried woman. No child found in this marriage. They left each other after very few years likely caused by next point:

1899: His third son Alfred J Brede was born only 2,5 mnd after the 1899-wedding. The mother was a young girl, 33 yrs younger than Johan!

1914: Died in Voss, Norway.

 

Best regards

Arne Petter

[Anton Hagelee]

1 hour ago, Arne Brede said:

872: His second son Karl K J Brede with an unmarried woman; they are my great-grandfather/-mother; Johan still married with Josephine!

 

There is a Family Tree on Ancestry.com managed by a Paul Juul with this person 

 

Karl Kornelius Juul Brede

BIRTH 2 MAR 1872 • Sundklakk, Gimsøy, Nordland, Norge

DEATH 1 NOV 1934 • Svolvær, Nordland, Norge

 

No mention of Josephine Maximiliane Muller in that Tree. 

 

But there is this person found in the same Tree. 

 

Christian Wilhelm Juul

BIRTH 7 MAR 1855 • Djupfjorden, Vågan, Nordland, Norge

DEATH 21 JAN 1937 • San Francisco, San Francisco, California, USA

 

Could this be how or why Josephine ended up in San Francisco?

 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/tree/107948301/family?cfpid=112031927428

 

 

 

 

Endret Mandag 23:07 av Anton Hagelee

[Anton Hagelee]

The connection seems to be through this person 

 

Knud Lorentz Juul 3

BIRTH 3 JUL 1813 • Kristiansund, Møre og Romsdal, Norge

DEATH 19 APR 1868 • Bø, Nordland, Norge

 

father of Christian Wilhelm Juul. 

 

and father of 

 

Amalie Leonharde Juul

BIRTH 19 MAY 1850 • Djupfjorden, Vågan, Nordland, Norge

DEATH 30 MAR 1939 • Svolvær, Vågan, Nordland, Norge

 

One of the wives of 

 

Johan Ernst Brede

BIRTH 1 FEB 1844 • Bergen, Hordaland, Norge

DEATH 26 MAY 1914 • Bjørkeli, Voss, Hordaland, Norge

 

https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/107948301/person/112282019381/facts

 

 

 

 

[Arne Brede]

Hi Anton!

 

Mother of Karl K J Brede is a young unmarried woman named Amalie L Juul (1850-1939) from Gimsøy.

Christian W Juul (1855-1937) is a brother of Amalie.

Not likely there is any relation between Christian and Josephine.🙂

 

Yesterday I received info saying that Josephine and her son arrived to New York instead of San F via Glasgow.

 

Best regards

Arne Petter Brede

[Anton Hagelee]

3 hours ago, Arne Brede said:

Yesterday I received info saying that Josephine and her son arrived to New York instead of San F via Glasgow.

 

Yes, Nina Tiller posted that above in second post. Here is the Ancestry.com version. 

 

Josephine Muller

New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957

NameJosephine Muller

GenderFemale

Ethnicity/ NationalityNorwegian

Age24

Birth Dateabt 1851

Place of OriginNorway

Departure PortGlasgow, Scotland

DestinationUSA

Arrival Date30 Jan 1875

Arrival PortNew York, New York, USA

Ship NameVictoria

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7488/records/16177626?tid=&pid=&queryId=4aec22b0-d134-4cbc-bcc2-fb91bff1dc03&_phsrc=hdB9&_phstart=successSource

 

[Jackie K Marler]

5 hours ago, Arne Brede said:

Thanks for your reply! There were a lot of stuff in many families at that time!

 

The other person that travelled with Josephine was her son Waldemar; only 16 years younger than his mother! I have no info about Waldemar.

Today I got information saying that they medio 1875 arrived to New York from Glasgow .

 

Short info about Johan Ernst; my great-great-gradfather:

1866: His first son Carl Waldemar with Josephine; a married couple

1872: His second son Karl K J Brede with an unmarried woman; they are my great-grandfather/-mother; Johan still married with Josephine!

1899: His second legal marriage with an unmarried woman. No child found in this marriage. They left each other after very few years likely caused by next point:

1899: His third son Alfred J Brede was born only 2,5 mnd after the 1899-wedding. The mother was a young girl, 33 yrs younger than Johan!

1914: Died in Voss, Norway.

 

Best regards

Arne Petter

It takes two to tango....

[Anton Hagelee]

And the transcribed version for Waldemar. 

 

Wildemar Muller

New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957 

NameWildemar Muller

GenderMale

Ethnicity/ NationalityNorwegian

Age8

Birth Dateabt 1867

Place of OriginNorway

Departure PortGlasgow, Scotland

DestinationUSA

Arrival Date30 Jan 1875

Arrival PortNew York, New York, USA

Ship NameVictoria

 

 

[Jackie K Marler]

An exceeding long shot in 1900 census born 1849, arrived US 1876:

"United States, Census, 1900", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M3WY-7JR : Fri Apr 04 17:07:05 UTC 2025), Entry for Henry Barnholdt and Josefa Barnholdt, 1900.

 

In 1880 census:

"United States, Census, 1880", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MWJ9-2V2 : Mon Jan 20 11:49:14 UTC 2025), Entry for Henry Barnholt and Josephine Barnholt, 1880.

 

In 1930 census:

"United States, Census, 1930", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XHZ2-K38 : Thu Jan 16 14:58:14 UTC 2025), Entry for Josphine Borneholt, 1930.

 

marriage:

"Pennsylvania, Marriages, 1709-1940", , FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WN-XKFD : 7 May 2023), Josephine J. Holm in entry for Henry Bonnholdt, 1877.

 

Unfortunately, I think this is she #85:

Mandal sokneprestkontor, AV/SAK-1111-0030/F/Fa/Faa/L0013: Ministerialbok nr. A 13, 1847-1859, s. 45
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20060106020050

 

Endret 22 timer siden av Jackie K Marler

[Jackie K Marler]

Interesting Carl Waldemar's parents, his maternal aunt and uncle and one other person were fadder to his confirming baptism on 10 June 1867:

Larvik kirkebøker, AV/SAKO-A-352/G/Ga/L0003a: Klokkerbok nr. I 3A, 1830-1870, s. 313
Brukslenke for sidevisning: https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20070502640672

 

Was Carl confirmed before he left Norway?

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Deleted

Endret 11 timer siden av Anton Hagelee

[Jackie K Marler]

I just went through every Waldemar b Norway Nov 1866 as found in the 1900 US census and there were none.

I then went through 700 Carl/ Charles b Norway Nov 1866 who came to US in 1875 1876 as found in the 1900 US census and there were none and really no close matches either.

 

When Carl Waldemar's father died in Norway, is there a dodsfallsprotokol for him?

[Nina Tiller]

Dødsfallsprotokoll nr 10 Johan Brede, ingen barn nevnt

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/54753/88

[Nina Tiller]

Vet ikke om det har noe å si, men når Josephine og Waldemar reiser til Amerika i 1875 står det at de er Amerikanske statsborgere

https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/43612/401

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/view/557/pe00000000930115

 

[Arne Brede]

Hei dere!

 

Takk for stor innsats med søk i amerikanske tellinger!

Merkelig at Waldemar ikke finnes registrert annet enn ved ankomst USA. Kanskje død, satt bort like etter ankomst eller skiftet navn?

 

Fra to av saksdokumentene til skilsmissen er det utsagn om at det var kjent i nærområdet at Josephine hadde et lettsindig og utsvevende levesett både før hun ble gift og under samværet med Johan Ernst før hun forlot han. Vet ikke om dette kan ha noen betydning for hvorfor Waldemar ikke finnes i tellinger.

 

Det finnes ingen registrering av konfirmasjon på Carl Waldemar i Norge. Finner ingen registrering på ham etter emigrasjonen fra Norge.

 

Registrering av dødsfall til Carls far Johan Ernst Brede: 

https://www.digitalarkivet.no/kb20050728050695

Han er oppført som ugift; jeg har ikke funnet noe som tyder på at hans andre og siste ekteskap ble oppløst før han døde.

Har funnet han som far til tre barn.

 

Arne Petter

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Here is a long shot but probably all that I have left. 

 

A marriage of a Josephine Miller in San Francisco in 1883. 

 

Josephine Miller

U.S., Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Church Records, 1781-1969 

NameJosephine Miller

GenderFemale

Record TypeMarriage

Birth PlaceNorge

Marriage Date14 Mar 1883

Marriage PlaceVarious, California, USA

SpouseJohn Christensen

Church NameAscension Lutheran

Church LocationSan Francisco, California

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/60722/records/7319241

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Possible death of the same person in 1889.  Same church and the presence  of the M as the middle initial caught my eye. 

 

Josephina M Christensen

U.S., Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Church Records, 1781-1969

NameJosephina M Christensen

Record TypeBurial

Birth PlaceNorge

Death Date3 Nov 1889

Burial Date6 Nov 1889

Burial PlaceOfc

Church NameAscension Lutheran

Church LocationSan Francisco, California

 

https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/60722/records/1319861?tid=&pid=&queryId=93a694df-829f-410a-8bf7-def233d9b372&_phsrc=FYe24&_phstart=successSource

 

 

[Anton Hagelee]

Josephine M Christensen is listed as about 39 years old at death. That would put her born about 1850 and she is listed as having been born in Norge. 

 

 

I wonder if any one with a newspaper subscription can find an obit for this lady?