[#5500] Records for Aker/Agersogn - 1848

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Hope I can help you in return. I can search for names in Ship's Passenger Lists for immigrants coming into Canada. I live in western Canada, so I am approximately 2400 km from the National Archives in Ottawa. But will do what I can. PD

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I can search for names in Ship's Passenger Lists for immigrants coming into Canada. I live in western Canada, so I am approximately 2400 km from the National Archives in Ottawa, so do not have access to some things. Hope I can help you in return. PD

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Oops! That went in twice.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I was quite surprised not to find Martin(i)us' birth in a snap. I will make another attempt, but if that also fails we may have to look for him elsewhere or in the confirmations lists. And if that should also fail, school archives, if they have survived, may be the last resort. But that may take some time. I'll see what I can do. I do not have my notes where I am now, so I will send you evt. questions when I come home. /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Yesterday was my Grandparents' Nicoline & Martinius’ 119th wedding anniversary! No one in the family ever knew that until Per discovered their marriage records.Today, I made a special trip to see “the rings.” Another granddaughter (who now has this heirloom) and I took a closer look at these 2 sterling silver rings with a magnifying glass. One ring has the initials M J. We are now quite positive the second ring is engraved with: 12/10.82 and not 19./10./82 as mentioned before. The engraving is quite fancy and the bottom line of the first “2” is not very clear. It is Martinius’ birthday (12/10/82) when he was 34 years old! Another mystery solved. The rings encircle the middle of a beautiful piece of crocheted work, about 8cm x 30cm. At each end of this work of art, is an intricate design with the initials M J and the year 1882, all done in tiny, silver metal beads. At the ends is a fringe of silver metal balls. Although the rings look like wedding bands, I don’t think they were even worn on someone’s finger. The crocheted piece was pulled through the rings and then the bead work and fringes were added. The rings cannot be removed. Does anyone know what this 119-year-old object is??

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Just for the record: The 17th of May 1814 was the day we had an independent Constitution, and our own Parliament. After the Napoleonic wars we were given to Sweden (which had to cede Finland to Russia!), so to be precise: our final national independence from Sweden had to wait until 1905 (when we elected our own King.) But we celebrate the 17th of May as our National holiday. (I should have elaborated a little more.)Now to some other records:I could not find the birth of Martinius in the Aker church records,, but then came across the following formulation about Aker prestegjeld: "The part of Aker which was east of Strømsveien, the islands in the Oslo fjord, and the earlier Oslo parish could still ...(chose to).. belong to Oslo Hospitalkirke as their parish church (after 1823). The areas of Grønland, Leret, Lakkegata and Enerhaugen should belong to Aker church, but those who belonged there could still use Oslo Hospitalkirke (after the extension of Oslo)." Because Oslo Hospital was "training ground" for nurses and doctors handling births. So I dug into the records of Oslo Hospitalkirke and found (I need not translate everything now?):År 1848 døbte: Martinus, (ægte = legitimate) birth 12 oct 1845, bapt 31 dec. Parents: Huusmand Johan Rasmussen og Hustru Marthe Christiansdatter Sjulsøen. Faddere (godparents): Berthe Rasmusdatter, Maria Larsdatter, Christian Rasmussen.Sjulsøen has to be the island in the Oslo Fjord now called Sjursøya, an oil terminal for Shell and Statoil! Nobody lives there now, as far as I know.Especially the last name is interesting, because in Aker kirkebok vol 2 we find (folio 224):Birth 19 aug 1824: Christian Parents: worker at Nedre Papirmølle (Nedre Papermill) Rasmus Johnsen and Wife Christine Pedersdatter ved Saugene og L. G.I strongly suspect that he is Johan's brother, an uncle of Martinus being godfather at the bapt.20 years later we find (Aker MINI 19 16/23-No 110): wedding 26 oct 1845, Bachelor Christian Rasmussen, 21 years, Born i S(outh) Aker, living at Saugene (=Sagene in Oslo), and unmarried girl Karen Fredriksen, 24 years, born at S Aker, living at Saugene. Fathers: Rasmus Johnsen and Fredrik Christian Ruge. Best men: Christian Fredriksen Ruge, Anders Jensen. Engagement Proclaimed in chuch: 25 sept, 5 + 12 oct.I have not been looking up the DA to try to find these persons. So now you have something to do for a while! I took a copy of Martinus' (it says so!) birth record, I will send that with the other things. Have you got my first mail, by the way? /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I will have to study all this new information that you found, but first I will go to town to check the mail again for your parcel. PD

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello again! New information and some problems:Oslo Hospital MINI 3-4/12 p 108 no79: born 25 august - bapt 9 nov 1845: Randine. Parents: Huusmann Johan Rasmussen & Wife Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer. Godparents: Lovise Olsen, Hanna Andersdatter, Berte Rasmusdatter, Fuldmægtig (officer) P. Stub, E. Lexou, C. Rasmussen. Reported by: Madame Heyerdahl i Ak. (The last names must be people working at the Hospital.)p.120 no 23: born 17 march bapt 6. june: Christian Paulus. Parents: Huusmand Johan Rasmussen & Wife Marthe Christiansdatter Sjuelsøen. Godparents: Christian Rasmussen, Johan Jensen, Hans Ludersen, Berthe Rasmusdatter, Marie Andersdatter.But I also have found something which is quite perplexing: During a period of five days, just after each other in the chuchbook for Aker (Aker MINI 19-16/23) we find: 26. oct 1845: Christian Rasmussen, 21, marries Karen Fredriksdatter, 24 years. Christians Father: Rasmus Johnsen.31 oct 1845: Ingeborg Rasmusdatter, 29 years marries Christian Nielsen, 24. Ingeborgs father: Rasmus Johnsen.What it seems like is a double wedding. But when we go to the church-books we find: Christian b 19th aug 1824 with parents Rasmus Johnsen and wife Christine Pedersdatter, adr; Saugene. But (Aker kirkebok 1811-19): Ingeborg b 11 aug 1816 by parents Rasmus Johnsen and wife Haagine Johannesdatter Bogstadeie. Godparents: Ingeborg Johnsdatter, Marthe Nielsdatter, Peder Andersen, Arne Johnsen.In Aker KB Fol 224 we find Engaged 30 oct married 9th nov 1815: Bachelor Rasmus Jonsen BogstadEie, 24 years, unmarried girl Haagine Johannesdatter, 26 years. Witnesses: Anders Gulbrandsen, John Olsen.So either the marriages of Ingeborg and Christian during the same five days in the same church both with a Rasmus Johnsen as a father MAY be a strange coincidence, or he has remarried between 1816 and 1824. Unhappily I have not been able to locate the marriage of Rasmus and Christine Pedersdatter. If he was Widower at that marriage, that would perhaps solve the problem.IF (and I repeat if) our Rasmus Johnsen should be the one who is married to Haagine, then we certainly find him, his brothers and sisters and parents (suitably enough Joen and Ingeborg) at Tangen in Agger (Aker) in 1801.I don't have any rabbits to pull out of hats here. I really see no other way of solving this than going through the books looking for Rasmus' and Christine's wedding, or Haagine's death. But that takes time. It will have to wait for some weeks, I can't see how I can manage this the next weeks. Maybe somone else listen to the call if you now sum up "what we know and what we need to resolve"? In the meantime I drop in the mailbox what I have got so far in terms of copies, etc. :-) /phc

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I might be totally confused. I tried to figure this all out. If I call the children of Johan Rasmussen - Generation #1, then we have -Gen #1 - (a) Randine (female ?) b. Aug 25, 1845; (b) Christian Paulus Johansen - b. Mar17 and christened June 6 [you don’t have a year - the Christian Johansen that lives with Martinus at Johan Larsen’s in 1875, was born 1847 at Aker], and © Martinus Johansen - b. Oct 12, 1848.Gen #2 - (a) ? possibly Ingeborg Rasmusdatter - b. Aug 11, 1816 (parents Rasmus Johnsen and Haagine Johannesdatter Bogstadele), married Christian Nielson on Oct 31, 1845; (b) Johan Rasmussen - no birth date - married to Marthe Christiansdatter (Wethammer) from Sjulsøen; and © Christian Rasmussen - b. August 19, 1824, married to Karen Fredriksen on Oct 26, 1845.Gen #3 - (1) Rasmus Johnsen - married first wife Haagine Johannesdatter Bogstadeie and they had Ingeborg (this is not confirmed yet). (1) Rasmus Johnsen, (worker at Nedre Papirmølle) did marry Christine Pedersdatter Wethammer from Saugene and they had 2 sons, Johan and Christian.Gen #4 - only a possibility - (if Rasmus Johnsen was married to Haagine)- Joen Rasmussen and his wife Ingeborg Arnesdatter are Rasmus Johnsen’s parents??Here is where I get lost - the spelling changes from John to Joen or the other way around? The following is from the 1801 census -6435 Joen Rasmussen Mand 51 Begge i første ægteskab Huusmand med jord M6436 Ingeborg Arnesdtr Hans kone 43 Begge i første ægteskab KIf the above is found to be right, then the following should be in Gen #3 - 6437 Arne Joensen Deres sønner 19 Ugivt M , 6438 Rasmus Joensen Deres sønner 9 M, 6439 Randi Joensdtr Deres døttre 16 Ugivt K, 6440 Ingeborg Joensdtr Deres døttre 13 K, 6441 Mari Joensdtr Deres døttre 6 K.Correct me where I’ve gone wrong or if I am missing something. No hurry, I've waited all my life to find out about my grandfather; you have already told me more than I ever knew.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello Pearl! I think you have got it pretty right. Still I am tempted to give you a little crash-course in the History of Oslo and a bit about the naming practice before summing up where we are now.The old trading center Oslo (Opsloe) by the Oslo Fjord is about a 1000 years old, consisting of old wooden, timber buildings, situated between the rivers Akerselva, Hovinsbekken ans Alna, which were to play an important role. After repeated city fires the Danish/Norwegian King Christian 4th decided in 1624 to build a new renessance town - Christiania - of brick- and stone-houses under the protection of the big guns and walls of Akershus Palace and Fortress, a few kilometers west of Old Oslo, as it was now called (=Gamlebyen, "the old town"). This was to become a strictly regulated "quadrature" of streets which could be kept "clean" of attacking Swedish soldiers by firing the Akershus guns through the streets. It must have worked, they never managed to take it. Oslo existed as an unregulated village "in the countryside" where people could set up their shacks and huts.The population grew rapidly: in 1801 it had 9000 inhabitants, and it lived largely by export of timber and wood, metals and minerals. And it was a natural shipping harbour. In 1855 the no. of inhabitants was 32.000, in 1865 57.000, in 1875 78.000, and in 1890 it had doubled in 15 years to a dramatic 150.000.We are now in the beginning of the rapid industrialisation. First industry was established by the riversides, and took their energy direcly from the rivers, Akerselva and Alna. Later on with electricity the industry could spread out and we got the electric tramlines, so people did not have to live so near work. Churches were built, and the church districts were adjusting with the growing population. This is why it is so difficult to know where to look for then, since they also moved around. In 1859 the borders of Christiania were extended to include Old Oslo. Aker, Grünerløkka and Sagene (wellknown names to you now) were included in 1859, Torshov, Kampen, Vålerenga and the rest of the Old Town in 1878. The rapid growth represented a growing market for the farmers close by to feed the mass of people flocking to Christiania, but people from the countryside on the other hand had to move to Christiania because also the agriculture was made more efficient with the help of machinery etc and did not need the large manpower of the farworkers and the tenant farmers (Husmenn, cottagers). Houses of bad standard were set up rapidly, sanitary conditions were bad, and there was a terrible overcrowding, as you can see from the number of people living at each address at FT1865 and FT1875. Nedre Papirmølle (later on Glad's mølle) at Sagene by Akerselva is one of the factories being established at this time, now offices and fashionable restaurants! Christiania took back it's old name Oslo in 1925. Old Oslo is now quite in the center of Oslo at the east side. There you also find Oslo Hospital which is both a Hospital and a Church (Oslo Hospitalkirke, built 1734/1796) now being called Gamlebyen Kirke. (I have got an old picture which I can mail you.)I think you are accustomed to the trippel naming practice now: Christian name + father's name + farm name, indicating where people are born (at birth), where they live (when they get married), or just some place they have a connection to. Fixed family names were introduced a little before 1900. Before that there were few families with fixed names. Also a tenant farmer (Husmann, cottager) was entered into the official registry under the name of the farm (say: Lie) with the prefix u(nder = under Lie) or v(ed = by) or the suffix -Eie (ownership) to indicate the farm Lie's possession of the tenant farm. BogstadEie = tenant farm under Bogstad. Or they might sometimes use the particular name of the tenant farm, often a very descriptive one ("Svelihjel" =dying of hunger).Now to the excurions we have made, looking for your grandfather Martin(i)us Johansen b 12 oct 1848. (sorry that I at one time wrote 1845) m Nicoline A F Westby (your Eiker-branch.) His faddere (=godparents) are: Berthe Rasmusdatter, Maria Larsdatter, Christian Rasmussen.We know his parents to be: Johan Rasmussen and Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer (in 1845)/ Sjulsjøen (in 1847). Johan Rasmussen and Marthe have (as far as we know) 3 children: Randine (yes, a girl) Johansdtr b b 25 aug 1845, Christian Paulus Johansen b 17 march 1847, and Martinius Johansen b 12 oct 1848.But now comes the big question: We know Johan Rasmussens parents to be Rasmus Jonsen and Ingeborg Christiansdatter. Christian Rasmussen who in 1845, living at Sagene marries Karen Fredriksdatter (sorry I wrote Fredriksen!) is b 19. aug 1824 by parents Rasmus Jonsen and Christine Pedersdatter. We refind him as godparent at Martinius' bapt. together with Berthe Rasmusdatter which may be his sister.Then comes the problem of Ingeborg Rasmusdatter b 11 aug 1816 by parents Rasmus Johnsen and wife Haagine Johannesdatter BogstadEie and who marries a mere 5 days later than Christian in the same church, to Christian Nielsen, and states as her Father Rasmus Johnsen. It is 8 years before Christian is born, and plenty of room for Rasmus to become a widower from Haagine and remarry with Christine. It IS a strange coincidence indeed. Rasmus is not at all a usual name. But we cannot yet be certain that Ingeborg is half-sister to Johan and Christian.But IF she is, then we know pretty much with certainty that:Tenant farmer Joen Rasmussen b ca 1750 and Ingeborg Arnesdatter b ca 1757 are their parents, with the children Rasmus b ca 1791, Randi b ca 1786, Ingeborg b ca 1788 and Mari b ca 1795 at home in 1801. (Other children may already be out of the nest.) Joen is the old spelling of John/Jon, and the age fits, Ingeborg Rasmusdatter b 1816 is named after her grandmother. Rasmus gives the name John to his son, and they did have a strong habit of naming their chrildren after the childrens' grandparents on both side. So it is tempting to think that Johan, Ingeborg and Christian are (half-)siblings. But we need to establish that, or find thet the hypothesis is wrong... That will take some work.I don't know when I can look into this again. Next week we go aboad for a couple of weeks, and then I have a busy period. So I cannot promise anything. But if I manage I will (I get stuck by curioity too!). In the meantime I may mail you things. And another envelope with copies is on it's way (the second.) :-) /ph

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I (tried to) say that I get curious too. It must be "our" Ingeborg we find at 1865 Vestre Aker, Ladegaardsøen, Skøien farm: Fam 2: Kristian Nilss. Housefather (sic), bricklayer, married, 46, b in Aker, and Ingebor Rasmusdatter, Wife, married, 50, Mormon. Is it conceivable that she should turn mormon if she is from the same family?? I have no answer. More mysteries... PS: I know there is no such thing as housefather (husfader)in English, but why not?

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I keep making errors: it should be Sjulsøen, (ie: Sjursøya, the oil depot of Oslo)not Sjulsjøen. It is not easy to see ones own misprints. I hope the rest is correct. There is by the way one other complication (possibility) which just occurred to me: the possibility that people give their wrong parents name to the registrar. I came across one instance of that in my own family when my gg-grandmother claimed that her mother was Karen Pedersdatter, which I definitely (happily) knew to be wrong: Karen was her step-mother. If I did not know that this information was positively wrong, it might have created a lot of confusion. We certainly cannot take anything for granted.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I would love to have a picture of the Oslo Hospitalkirke where my Grandfather was born. A picture of a building like the one at Rødfyldgade 29, where Grandma Nicoline lived, the first couple years before she went into a foster home, would also be nice. My old set of encyclopedias do not have much history on Oslo or very nice pictures. So any pictures or history is most welcome.You are right, looking at Ernst and Carl's båpsattest documents, one would think they were not full-brothers, Ernst's parents were recorded as Martinius Johansen and Nicoline f.Fredriksen and Carl's parents were Martinius Johannessen and Nicoline Antonette Eunenie Westby.Have a good trip. PD

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello Pearl. I hope you will accept that bad news is also news: I just found Rasmus Johnsen and Christine Pedersdatter's wedding, in 1823. It turns out that Rasmus was a bachelor when he married, so he cannot be the father of Ingeborg Rasmusdatter (whos parents are Rasmus Johnsen and Haagine Johannesdatter.) That means also that we do not know who Rasmus Johnsen's parents are. But at least now we have something concrete. Oslo Domkirke Aker MINI 7-7/11 Fol 447 No 62: Copulation (Wedding) 31 oct 1823: "Ungkarl (bachelor), arbeider ved Nedre Foss Papiir Mølle (worker at Nedre Foss Paper Mill), Agger Sogn (Aker Church District) Rasmus Johnsen, 19 Aar, Pige (unmarried girl) Christine Pedersdatter, 20 Aar, tjenende for Wadfisker Anders Jacobsen ved Brÿggerne (servant for Netfisher Anders Jacobsen at the docks). Faddere (witnesses): Christian Gudmundsen og Niels Gulbrandsen, arbeidere ved Nedre Foss Papirmølle (workers at Nedre Foss Paper Mill)."At least we have established that Paperworker Rasmus Johnsen is born in 1804, and Christine Pedersdatter is born in 1803. And that they are the parents of Johan Rasmussen and Christian. But there is no indication of where they came from, and who their parents are. And the witnesses are not family, it seems. It is not at all impossible that there could be archives belonging to the papermill at Foss, but finding that.... This looks very much like youngsters who have gone to town to find a living.At least now we know that Ingeborg b 1816 and Johan Rasmussen b 1818 is not "our" family. The double wedding certainly was a strange coincidence, but a coincidence it was. I will post you copies of the marriage declaration (then you can see for your self that it is not so easy to read.)I did not get that about Ernst and Carl. Have you misunderstood me, or have I mingled up the generations somewhere??

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

As I said I can make a copy of an old picture of Oslo Hospitalkirke and send you. To find a picture of Rødfyllgata, possibly no 29, I would have to get that from the local Oslo Archives. It is not far from here, so I can try when we are back. Nedre Foss is not many minutes from where we live. I think I can make you a copy of what it looked like at about 1850, and then drive down and take a picture of what it looks like today. But all this will have to wait till we are back. :-) /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

When I talked about Ernst and Carl, I should have said, Ernst Rolf and (his younger brother) Carl Eilert Rolf (both sons of Nicoline and Martinius). The name Rolf was given to both sons, seemed to be a popular name! It doesn't look like any of Martinius and Nicoline's children were named after family (except for Carl Eilert Rolf after his Uncle Carl Andreas Westby).You don't have to go to so much trouble to find a picture of where Nicoline lived. I was just curious to see what kind of buildings they lived in. It must have been like an apartment building for so many families to live at one address. I can go to the city library and see what I can find there. Maybe a postcard with a picture of Domkirke would be easier to find?I am quite happy with all you have found, and if you don't find anything else or don't wish to search any more, that's quite alright with me. A letter will be on it's way to you very soon. PD.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello Pearl. I am the sort of person who "never" throws away things. When sorting the desk today I found a small booklet "Streiftog i Kristiania med Kodak av HHV", (Strolling around in Kristiania with Kodak,") Kristiania 1911. And what did I find on page 5 if not a picture of Rødfyldgaden! There are also many other interesting pictures in the booklet. The photos must have been taken on standard film with a relatively simple camera, because the quality could have been better (it is far from the standard of the older glass-plate cameras.) But nevertheless. I will make copies as soon as I can. The anonymous photographer has attempted to take pictures of buildings before they were torn down by modernization, so I believe you will find the street(s) relatively unchanged since they were put up perhaps in the 1840-50s. I also came across a postcard sendt to an old aunt of mine (then a young girl), poststamped 1907, where the sender writes that "here you see what it looks like here at Sagene where they (relatives) live." I will make a copy of that too. Strange what one can come across just like that...

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

That sounds great, I would love to have copies of those pictures. I, too, have been looking for pictures of Oslo and I came across the name of one of your main streets, Carl Johan. I'm like you I never through anything away. I have a very old pencil drawing of that street. Nobody else wanted this framed drawing after our parents died. So, I kept it and it has gathered dust for the last 20 years in my basement. I never knew what city it was or "who" Karl Johan was. I always thought it was just a man's name. The drawing is titled ~ Parti fra Karljohan ~(no capital letter on johan, it looks like one word). The artist's name is Halvard Storm, and below his name is -26. I don't know if that is the year of the drawing or if -26 means the 26th copy of the original. For all I know, this could be the original. The people walking up the street look like they could be dressed in the style of the 1920's. The main building is a large (maybe round) stone, one-storey structure with arched openings or windows. In the backround is a large church steeple. I am positive it is the steeple for The Cathedral Church. Until I found a picture of The Cathedral Church, I had a funny feeling it might be Domkirke!!Never throw anything away, it might be a clue to finding your roots! PD

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello again. I really have no positive news, and further search will have to wayt till we are back. But some of the information I have sendt you may have been confusing, so I try to sum up:Gen4: Rasmus Johnsen b 1804 m Domkirken Christine Pedersdatter b 1803. He works at Nedre Foss Papermill, she is a servant a at fisherman's house (Anders Jacobsen) probably at the river banks where Akerselva (the Aker river) meets the Oslo fiord. I have not tried to find A.J.Gen3: Christian Rasmussen b (Aker) 1824 m (Aker, living at Sagene) 1845 Karen Fredriksdatter Ruge.Johan Rasmussen b? g Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer / Sjuelsjøen.and most likely: Berthe Rasmusdatter b?Gen 2, Johan and Marthe's children:Randine Johansdatter b (Oslo Hospital) 1845Christian Paulus b (Oslo Hospital) 1847 whom we in 1875 find at the same address as Martinus: Platousgade 16.Martinus Johansen b (Oslo Hospital) 1848 m 1882 (Domkirken) NicolineAntonette Eugenia Fredriksen Westby b 1858 in Eiker.Earlier in this discussion there are a lot of details about godparents and best men which may give us a clue.What has been confusinfg was the fact that there exist another set of children of the age of Gen 3 with different parents: Ingeborg Rasmusdatter b 1816, Anne b 1820, Anne b 1823, Johan Rasmussen b 1818, Andreas b 1821. All with father Rasmus Johnsen and mother Haagine Johannesdatter in Aker. But Since OUR Rasmus Johnsen was a bachelor when he married in 1823, this group with very similar names must be from a different family (unless there are two brothers Rasmus Johnsen, which is not at all out of the question!).But when I try to find through Digitalarkivet what happened to Christian and Karen, and to Randine and Christian Paulus, the result is a total blank. Did they too emigrate? I have tried the emigrant archives with no result. It will be at least a couple ow weeks before I can follow this up. We really need to find Johan and Marthe's wedding, and we need to find out who Marthe Christiansdatter is. As it is now we have a lot of side-persons the identity of whom we do not know. And we have some names which keep popping up, the significance of which I don't know. I have come across a few details about the paper mill. Maybe that can give us a thread. In the mean time, if you manage to locate some of these people on the net, please tell it here.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I think I have the Martinus Johansen family figured out correctly. A letter and an outline of the Johansen family tree is on the way by airmail.One correction about Nicoline. She was not born in Eiker. Nicoline, her brother Carl and sister Hilda were all born in Christiania. Their father Andreas Johnsen Westby and his brothers and sister were born in Eiker. I have also sent an outline of the Westby family tree to you. I will post this information on the Westby family in the forum here under a new topic.I have been looking for some of these people in the censuses. No luck. I noticed that one of the Godparents for Randine Johansdatter was P. Stub. Martinus and Nicoline’s son Frithjof was given Stub for a second name. That is not a very common name! I will try to see if I can find P. Stub. PD.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I don't know whether Christian and Karen Rasmussen or Randine and Christian Johansen emigrated. As far as I know, it was only Nicoline, Martinus, their 6 children and Nicoline's brother Carl Andreas Westby who emigrated. I'll will look for them in the Ellis Island records.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I have noticed the same Stub name, and have found something to do with the factories along Akerselva. I will try to find out more when I'm back. /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I found a Randine Johannes. in the 1865 census and a Randine Johannesdatter in the 1875 census. However, in both places her birth year was recorded as 1846 and not 1845.In 1865 - Randine Johannes., tjenestepige, ug, age 21, fødestad - Christiania. She was in Johan Peters household at #28 Dronningens Gade, Vors Frelsers Menighed, Christiania. Underskrift: p H Clausen, Jensen.In 1875, Randine Johannesdatter was married to Hans Jacob Andersen, Restaurateur i Det Norske selskrab, b. 1842, Sørum. Randine was born 1846 at Kristiania. They lived at Akersgade 18, Kristiania.This might be our Randine. PD

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello - we are leaving in half an hour, when home I'll look into this and other things. The Stub name is strange, because of the long time which has lapsed, and that makes it an even mystery. I do think we need to find Marthe's identity here, if possible. That may put many other names into place. Nedre Foss is now part of a controversy here: the state wants to put it's new Art Highschool, a centre of performing arts there. Strange how you all of a sudden start to focus on anything that has to do with Nedre Foss! Another name of which I did not get any meaning was Wethammer. I think I have to go and take a new look at it to see whether I misread it. Sjuelsøen is perfectly meaningful, it is the island where they now have the oil terminals. I'll be back with more info in a couple of weeks, and then also send you more copies. Finland and Estonia calling.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Hope you have a safe tripI searched for the farm Wethammer and came up with VETHAMMER in the municipality of Stange in Hedmark.In the 1865 census, there was a Marthe Rasmus., Logi, Understøttelse af Fattigkasen, e, 56, birthplace - Stange, Hedemarken.She was living with Johan Lars., Staalstraadarbeider, 27, b. Ager and his wife Karen Johannes. 25, b. in Stange, Hedemarken. JOHAN LARSON & KAREN lived at #6 Platougaden , Grønlands Menighed, Christiania, Underskrift: Ole Christiansen. I believe Johan Lars. & Karen Johannes are the same people that we find Martinus and brother, Christian Johansen living with in 1875 at Platuo #16, Litr A, Litr B, Litr C, og No 16 B1875 - Johan Larsen , Hegtemagerarbeider, b.1839 at Aker. His wife, Karen b. 1841, birth place - Hedemarken. Also, listed was their 3 sons and 2 daughters, some of whom were godparents for Martinus’s first 2 daughters, Margit and Aslaug.I think this is the connection and possible relationship!!Owner of the building, Ole Christiansen and his family also lived in this dwelling - possibly a relative to Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer??In the 1865 census, we find Karen Larsen’s maiden name - JOHANNES. - possibly another relative?? Although Marthe doesn't seem to be listed as a relative - logi....??Per, now you have something to figure out. PD