[#5500] Records for Aker/Agersogn - 1848

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

In what part of Norway would I find the fødsted - TUNE? Tune was listed as Ole Christensen's birthplace in the 1865 census. PD

[Gjest Dale Tuvey]

I have enjoyed following this thread through your messages back and forth. I noticed in another thread a post about Tune in Osfold, which is south of Oslo. There is also another Tune in Buskerud Northwest of Oslo. I don't know if either of those would be a likely fit with your areas of interest but I thought I would pass it along. I've apprecitated the help I've gotten on this forum so much I thought if I could help it might be a small payback. Best wishes and good luck in your search.

[Gjest Bjørn H. Engseth]

Pearl, Old Tune municipality is today partly in Fredrikstad and partly in Sarpsborg municipality.Fredrikstad and Sarpsborg is approximately 55 miles south of Oslo.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Thanks, now I have a couple areas to search in. Since Tune is fairly close to Oslo, this Ole Christiansen may be related to Marthe in some way. PD.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Per, The photocopies of the original church records for Martinus Johansen's baptism, engagement and wedding arrived. I am amazed you can decipher some of that old handwriting! Thanks ever so much, Pearl.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello again Pearl. Yes thank you - we had a nice trip.I think you may be onto something here. Marthe Christiansdatter was called Wethammer in 1845 and Sjuelsøen in 1847. The order is important: if it had been the other way around we could hardly follow her back to Stange in Hedmark (150 km north of Oslo, close to Hamar and situated by Norway's biggest lake Mjøsa, about 1 1/2 h with a car.) She would hardly call her self Sjuelsøen first and then later Wethammer if that is where she came from... So if - IF -the persons we find living with Martinus Johansen in Platousgade 16 in Oslo in 1875 are the same Johan and Karen as you find in 1865 in Platousgade 6 this may POSSIBLY lead us to Marthe Christiansdatter's family (we must be optimists in this trade, but also realists!):Staaltraadarbeider Johan Larsen, 27 y in 1865, b. Ager and his wife Karen Johannesdatter 25, b. in Stange, Hedemarken, living at #6 Platougaden , Grønlands Menighed, Christiania, (Underskrift: Ole Christiansen.) Johan, a steelworker (staaltraadarbeider = steel thread worker, i.e. producing steel wire or the basis for nail production, is probably working at Christiania Spigerverk, a steelfactory producing carpenter nails, situated by Akerselva (as was Nedre Foss Papirmølle).Could we fit Marthe Rasmusdatter, (Logi, Understøttelse af Fattigkasen, e, 56, (in 1865)birthplace - Stange, Hedemarken) into this? She is born around 1810 and in Stange, so her age is about the same as that of Rasmus Johnsen (b 1804) and his wife Christine Pedersdatter (1803). If we could only find the marriage between Johan Rasmussen and Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer/Sjuelsøen.... that may give us some answers. It ought to be found around 1840-45.PS: I can see you have opened up another forum # 3553 "Malene Andersd. Westbye/John Amundsen - Eiker" and got some results. So I need to update the papers you have sendt me (thanks!). I have only sendt you 2 envelopes so far. The third comes as soon as I have had the chance to copy the pictures I came across. Right now it is a bit busy.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Thanks for explaining everything so well and adding little bits of information about the region, steel factory, etc.Right now, I am looking for a detailed map of Norway. I have written to the Norwegian Embassy in Ottawa asking for a map of Norway, and in particular Buskerud. I have an old 1962 map of Oslo that is quite helpful in locating most of the places that you mention in your reports. If there is any place on the internet to find detailed maps of the different regions (Buskerud, Hedmark, Akershus, etc.), I would be interested. PD

[Gjest Tor Andersen]

Have you tried [url="http://194.143.80.67/MapOnWeb/adresser/>http://194.143.80.67/MapOnWeb/adresser/ (Norwegian only) ? That is the same address that is used at the end of each Census page.The maps you can find on http://www.statkart.no/ngis/norgesglasset.html are even better.The 'official' Norwegian Map products used on that website might be found on

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Tor A. - I tried the websites you suggested, but have not got very far in locating the areas I would like to see on a map. My Norwegian is very limited, but I will keep trying. PD.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Pearl: I have posed a question in a new forum here about P. Stub. Fullmektig P Stub donated to the National Gallery here in 1843 a dutch painting with a strange inscription made into it, while the pain was still wet: "Marie Hansen, 10 years old". Let us first see if anybody knows anything about him. If so, I'll translate for you in this forum.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Hello again! Some news, a surprise and a new enigma. First: Another child of Rasmus Johnsen and Christine Pedersdatter by Saugene (=Sagene): Johanne Marie Rasmusdatter b 28. nov. 1826. Godparents: Inger Hansdatter, Berthe Nielsdatter, Anne Syversdatter, Niels Gulbrandsen, Lars Nielsen and Ole Andersen.And now the surprise: Johan Peter Rasmussen b 11. april 1829! Godparents: Berthe Marie Eriksdatter, Kari Halvordsdatter, Ellen Andrine Christophersdatter, Christian Pedersen, Lars Olsen and Jens Syvertsen, all from Saugene (i.e. Sagene). (Saug is just danish spelling of norwegian Sag = Saw. They were handling timber along Akerselva, taking power directly from the river.)This means that Johan was a mere 16 years old when Randine Johansdatter was born. I cannot find the wedding of Johan and Marthe Christiansdatter in Aker. But at that age I presume that he (they) would have to apply for a permit to marry. The application ought to be in the archives somewhere.And now the enigma: if you look at FT1865 for Christiania, you will find Johan Petter Rasmussen, 37, and Anne Kirstine Johannesdatter, 35. They live in Sandakerveien at Sagene, just a few steps away from the papermill, and his profession is "papirarbeider", paper worker. There can be no doubt that this is our Johan? - is there?I have been looking at him before, but judged him too young. But now the next line states: Kjersti Christophersdatter, logerende, hans Moder (his mother, living with the family), 80 years, b in Ager.I very much doubt that there are two Johan Pet(t)er Rasmussen, at the same age, both born in Aker and living in Sagene and paperworkers. And rechecking his birth makes no difference: Pedersdatter cannot be read Christophersdatter, and 80 is not 61. Maybe the interviewers just got it wrong when they asked somebody? Or the transcription of data in Digitalarkivet got things wrong. Qestions, questions. Have anyone got a better idea??But Kjersti on the other hand may very well be Christine. When Christine Pedersdatter's name was written down at the marriage in 1823 it is entirely possible that she was called Kjersti among her family. Christine was perhaps too formal and "highbrow." If she comes from Stange in Hedmark it is even more likely, they would not be very familiar with "Christine" in Stange, Kjersti would be more natural to most people, I guess.Nedre Papirmølle (Nedre (=Lower, i.e. downstream) Papermill) was Norway's first Papermill, it was later on merged with Øvre (Lower = upstream) Papirmølle. It was established in 1736 and in production from 1740. I was later caled Glad's Mølle, and went out of production in 1872. It still stands, and I was down there the other day and took some pictures which I will send. I also took a couple of pictures of Sandakerveien which passes just by, without the knowledge of Johan Peter at that time. It will soon be in your mailbox. /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I will print this new information out and study it. I think you are saying that Johan Peter Rasmussen (father of Randine, Christian and Martinus),b. 11 April 1829, was married to Anne Kirstine Johannesdatter. Johan was not married to Marthe Christiansdatter from Wethammer. Is that right? If Anne was the mother, then she was only 14 when Randine was born. I will try to figure this out, but will probably need some help. Pearl

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Ooppss did I say that? No, it seems that Johan'f full name was Johan Peter Rasmussen, and he must have been a very young father. Seemingly his first wife Marthe Christiansdatter Wethammer must at some time have died, and he remarried Anne Kirstine. But in FT1865 they seem to indicate that Johan's mother, living with them in Sandakerveien in Sagene, is called Kiersti Christophersdatter, 80 years old in 1865. That is unreasonalble for many reasons, but given some leeway, some tolerance, we may assume that Kiersti (Kjersti) is a more "lowbrow" form of Christine, and that HER patronymicon (father's name) is simply a mistake. Because we know with certainty that Christian, Johanne Marie, Johan Peter's (and maybe Berthe's) parents are Rasmus Johnsen and Christine Pedersdatter. Maybe the first name is right, and she was called Kjersti Pedersdatter on a daily basis. If Kjersti/Christine had been 80 years old in 1865, she would have been about 39 when she got Christian, and 44 when she got Johan, and with a husbond 19 years younger. I would not go for that. It is easier to assume that of the information given in FT1865 only the first name is "about correct", and the rest is, well, sloppyness? I have not tried FT1875 by the way. Or we may have to look into some other possible sources, maybe the (possible) death of Marthe Christiansdatter and (possible) new marriage with Ann Kirstine. If Christine Pedersdatter is alive in 1865 (and FT1865 does at least indicate that) then we should somehow be able to locate her somewhere. I cannot say I have any good ideas right now, though.The documents from the Paper factory (Nedre Papirmølle) are in the Riksarkivet. I have in fact been looking at them, seeing if I could locate Rasmus Johnsen. There was a list of workers between 1802-1811 or so, called a Diary (Dagbog), and I will try to see if there may be more of them, but I do not know now when I will have the time. But it was quite interesting, it showed the working shifts: people were working 21 3/4 days per month in two shifts, one dayshift and one night shift. (Today they would certainly have divided the da into three or more!)

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

We know for sure that Marthe Christiansdatter (Wethammer/Sjulsøen)was Randine, Christian and Martinus's mother. Marthe's name was recorded in all 3 children's christenings. So, Marthe has to stay in the picture. I don't know about the Anne Kirstine Johannesdatter?? If Anne does fit into the picture, she would be the second wife to Johan.If only there were another census year between 1801 and 1865, that would help!Your new information gives us a birth date for Johan Peter Rasmussen. Were Johan's parents recorded as Rasmus Johnsen and Christine Pedersdatter in his christening record? And you found a sister - Johanne Marie Rasmusdatter.So far, we have - 3 children born to Rasmus Johnsen and Christine Pedersdatter. They were - Christian (b. 1824), Johanne Marie (b. 1826) and Johan Peter (b. 1829).Anxious to see the pictures you are sending. Thanks, Pearl

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Yes, Johan Peter's parents are on record as Arbeidsmand (worker) Rasmus Johnsen and Kone (Wife) Christine Pedersdatter, under Saugene U: SA (which I interpret as Under Søndre Ager).It is the part mentioning "hans Moder" (Johan Petter' mother) which is confusing. It would have been so nice if we could prove it wrong, i.e. prove that her first name (Kiersti) is way of right, while the patronymicon is plainly wrong, together with the age. I think I will take a small trip to Oslo Byarkiv when I get the chance, to see if she is registrated there.The lack of a census between 1801 and 1865 is everybody's headache. Many people do not manage to get across that hindrance, not to say from 1801 to 1701... If only the King was a genealogist at the time, but HIS personal need of a overview was well covered...

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

This, I believe, is the last piece of information I can give you for a while, our summer holiday starts tomorrow after work. I have been a little visit to the Oslo City Archives (Oslo Byarkiv). I found addresses which even surprised the experts there, but after some pondering they gave me an explanation. Now the results:Paperworker Johan Rasmussen, living in the are "Fossiden til Sagveien" at "Myrens Grund paa Sagveien Østre", which they said HAS to be interpreted as Sandakerveien, in a house called Myrenborg, is taxpayer No 5790 in taxclass 2 (meaning ABOUT 4 persons in the household) for 1860 (i.e. income year 1859) with a taxable income of 150 Speciedaler. (i SpD = 5 ort = 120 Skilling.) Since from 1876 1 krone = 30 skilling = 100 øre, 1 SpD = 4 kroner). This equals 4x150 kr = 600 kr pr year or 12 kr a week. (I do not think they had any holiday yet.)It should amount to about 100 Canadian dollars a year or so. He works at Nicolaysen's Papirmølle which is certainly Nedre. He has a taxable part of his income: 5 SpD in Citytax (Byskat), 5 SpD in taxes to the poor (Fattigskat). And he pays 21 Sk in City Income tax + 17 Sk of his income to the poor. He has no fortune. (Whether you should add 5 + 5 Spd + 21 Sk + 17 Sk to find the total tax is something I have not had the time to find out yet, but I assume so. But I am uncertain about it, that question will have to wait till I am back, sorry. If somebody else knows, please tell us.) And then I found an other thing:Taxpayer No 5758: Rasmus Johnsens Enke Kierstine Pedersdatter, adr. "Fossiden til Sagveien" at a house calles Smedgaarden (The Smith's house), with 17 taxpayers living there, or about 50 persons. She is in taxclass 1 (i.e. 1-2 persons in the household.) And she has the same income: 150 SpD. She has a taxable income of 20 SpD for Citytax, 20 SpD for Poverty Tax, and pays 84 Sk in City Income Tax, and 69 Sk in Poverty tax of her income.But the vital information here is: we have our confirmation that Christine is a widow in 1860, and the income is PROBABLY that of Rasmus before he died. Christine lives very close to Johan, they seem both to live in Sandakerveien. And she calls herself Kierstine. So certainly FT1865 has got her patronymicon wrong. This must be Johan Peter's mother Kjersti(ne) Pedersdatter living with them in 1865, moving into their place in Sandakerveien after Rasmus Johnsen died, probably in 1859. It should not be difficult to find out, but it will, alas, have to wait some weeks... :-) /ph

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Great research work, Per!! "Takk" for now, PD