[#5503] Records for Grønlands Menighed, Christiania

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

There is a Nil Johnsen living with his father John Amundsen at Vinsvold, Øvre Eiker in 1865. John is married to Dorthe Ellefsdatter. Could this be Nils,the brother, mentioned in Andreas's prison records?If so, then John must have divorced Malene and remarried? Malene is still alive, living with one of her sons, in 1875.

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I doubt very much that this is the right person(s). Andreas Johnsen Westby was received at the Prison (Botsfengslet) on the 6th of November 1865, and states during his registration that his father John Amundsen is dead. The registration must have taken place on the same day, at the latest (or earlier if the information is copied from the court papers). FT1865 took place on the last day of the year (dec 31, 1865), i.e. 7 weeks later. A second reason is that a divorce would have been a very unusual thing at that time. There would have had to be quite extreme reasons to ask for a divorce, the breach of something as sacred as a marriage. Madness of one of the partners, extreme cruelty or something like that. It does not seem likely. If something like that was in the coming, my guess would be that it would even have been mentioned in the prison papers of their son Andreas. But let me inform you on something else. You mention two street addresses in Christiania: Platousgate 8 and Rødfyldgaten 29. Platousgate 8 is in "Grønland" in the center of old Oslo (the center of town before it was moved to the walls of Akerhus Castle on the demands of the King Christian 4th, and was given his name, Christiania), at the intersection of Grønlandsleiret(the Prison address). I have not checked up the concrete address, but there are still many old houses there. With Rødfyldgate 29 the situation is more special. Let me quote from Oslo Byleksikon, the city lexicon: "Rødfyllgata - earlier street in Vaterland district, from Schweigaards Bridge to Karl XII's street, earlier called Vaterlands Tværgade (Vaterland intersection). In the 16th century Bjørvika (harbour) went all the way up here. Upon the banks of the river, filled up with chip (from woodcutting) piers were built, and (from this) the street got its name (Red fillings street). In the 17th century Rødfyllgata was the main street of Vaterland, with many finely equipped buildings. When Carl 12th besieged Akershus Castle he lived here (the later Carl XIIs Street 30.) All buidings and the street disappeared when the area was demolished during the 1960s." And then it is mentioned that no12, a large timber building, has been moved to Oslo Folkemuseum, the large outdoors Museum in Bygdøy in Oslo. There you also find the old street sign. What is strange, though, is that you will also find, under Oslo Sosialkontor, that those who have the address of Rødfyllgata have Gamle (Old) Oslo Trygdekontor as the right address if they should apply for social benefits. Either this is a slip, or maybe there has indeed been a house until quite recently with the address Rødfyllgata. I do not know the answer to that.

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Those prison records have turned out to be quite valuable. I can see one needs to know a lot of history, besides knowing the old languages and how to decipher the old way of writing. It's all so interesting, Pearl

[Gjest Laila Normann Christiansen]

Thank you for the information on Rødfyllgata, Per Håkon. I have the Oslo Byleksikon my self, but I have not looked for that particular street. My gggmother was born in Rødfyllgata 12 in 1850s! And, in the book I found a picture of it! Wow, and, that the house is out on Bygdøy...I am planning a trip out there today, actually! Laila

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

Nice! Here you see demonstrated the benefit of dicussing this in public rather than mailing each other information. All of a sudden somebody exclaims: Hey - thats my gg-grandfather you're looking for; and new windows of opportunities open up. Did you find what you were looking for?

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

In the 1875 Census, in the municipality of Kristiania #0301, at this address - Raadhusgade #30, there was a soldier by the name of Andreas Westby, occupation Menig jæger, birth place Kristiania.Andreas Johnsen Westby was born in 1817, so he would be 58 years old in 1875, which seems to be too old to be in the army. Unfortunately, the year of birth was not included for any of the 59 men in this infantry.We know Andreas Johnsen Westby was born in Eker. In the 1865 census, his place of birth was also listed as Christiania, which was incorrect.Besides being too old, there is the fact that Andreas had been in prison, maybe that would prevent him from serving in the army??Any comments on this line of thinking........

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Per, the envelope arrived with the copies of the original prison records and your translations. Very interesting. Thank you very much.I forgot prisoners were sentenced to serve time with only "bread and water". To think he went to jail (8 months hard labour)for stealing a fishing line and spindle worth 1½ Spd. Maybe he was trying to feed his 3 small, motherless children.Did you find out what the present day value of 1½ speciedaler is?I was also wondering about the prison picture that you mentioned in one of your messages. Do you know if I could get a copy of Andreas's picture if I wrote to the prison? PD

[Gjest Per Håkon Christiansen]

I have been trying to figure out approximately the value of 1 1/2 Speciedaler in todays money, but have not quite come to a conclusion yet. I'll try to come back to that. (But it cannot stand in any reasonable relationship to 8 months in prison, after today's standards.) Sadly there was no picture of him. I had hoped for a nice surprise to you, but, alas, he was evidently not a big enough crook to be portraited! Amazingly the portraits go back to 1861!

[Gjest Terje Hatvik]

To Pearl and Per Håkon: Hi! If I may, I will so bold and try to answer a question raised by you Pearl regarding this subject of yours, the prisoner Andreas.Yes, I do subscribe to your thoughts regarding the age of a soldier. The age of 58 would be way over the top for almost any soldier, regardless if he is a conscript or a mercenary [and we - i.e. Norway do not have a professional army, merely drafted personnel, conscripts and a semi-professional officers-corps].Military servicemen still in servicemen (i.e. not retired) at that age are either senior officers, normally those who have excelled to a high rank; or - as for example in Canada or USA a senior warrant officer or a top-rank non-commisioned officer, equivalent of a Sergeant Major or similar. Anyway, we're talking about the "top brass" here as an Englishman would nickname them.I presume - without jumping at any conclusion - that any of these options can be excluded in this particular case.Another indication which clearly hustifies your doubts is the fact that this relative of yours is a prisoner, a convict. Even today one is extremely reluctant when it comes to admitting former jailbirds in the Defence forces; - not only in Norway, but in most countries. Certainly Canada is/was no exemption to that rule -.Moreover, going back to the eighteen-sixties I assume the conditions was sligthly tougher/severe for convicts and the popular judgments even harsher. A former prisoner would - if he was accepted at all as a military serviceman - most certainly be denied admittance to several tasks, and he would be barred from holding certain posts of particular importance within the armed forces, and futhermore, some areas would definetely be "out of bounds" to him.A valid example would anything related to the tasks of cashiers/treasurers, expecially if your criminal records included theft; regardless how insignificant the crime -. And I don't think there was any major distinction (- if any) between the Army and the Navy when it came to such matters. One would be judged by appearance and former record, not in accordance with present attitude, skills or behaviour; i.e. Condemned because of former mischiefs.When it comes to the exact value of a Speciedaler (1 1/2, I believe), I am not certain, but I have read somewhere (- long ago) that when Norway changed currency from Speciedaler and Skilling to Kroner and Øre i 1875 the official exchange rate implemented by the authorities was 4 (four) daler equivalant of 1 (one) Krone. So certainly it was worth at little bit less than in 1865. But exchange rates both drops and raises, that is common knowledge, ref. the stock market.And if my memory serves me right, 1 Krone in 1875 would be worth approximately 150 kroner in todays currency. But I must emphasize that this is far beyond my expertise, so I trust that someone - anyone - will correct my misses and errors.However, maybe the Norwegian Bureau of Statistics can be of help regarding the exchange-rates and former values?? If I were you, I would have considered adressing them. It may prove to be worth the effort.Anyhow, after having read the coloumns in this fora the two of you most certainly have proved that hunting for ancestry easily can be compared to digging for gold og hidden treasures - you don't always hit the buried chest filled with gold and emeralds but it is always exciting. And it must be very encouraging to come up with many valid results, as it has turned out in your case. Futhermore, it proves that hunting for ancestry is both a thrilling topic and good sport.Good luck! and do proceed.Best Regards, Terje Hatvik

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

Terje, Thanks for your interesting comments. I figured Andreas's prison record and age would eliminate him from being in the infantry. Per may be right about the Andreas Johannessen, that died from tuberculosis in 1873 at Rødfyldgata 25, being the same person as Andreas Johnsen Westby. Andreas Johannessen was a married man (b. 1833)and Andreas Westby was a widower(b. 1817), although he could have remarried and a mistake made about his age.Maybe, I should check the emigrants from Christiania. Leaving Norway wouldn't be such a bad idea for an ex-con!You are right, this is just as exciting as finding gold! PD.

[Gjest Terje Hatvik]

.... and I am confident that you will dig up more valid information. And yes, emigration was - and perhaps still is - a good idea fore some of those who, most rightfully or quite unjustified; was thrown in jail and thus became disgraced as public persons. Entering the "hall of shame" wasn't too attractive, I reckon. So having a looking closer into the emigration files might do the trick. At least I hope so.Regarding remarriages: It suddenly struck me that if the individual concerned made his living out of a profession which made him travel, for example certain merchants, tradesmen, craftsmen etc., and, furthermore; being situated in Kristiania which is not too far from Sweden - maybe he emigrated to Sweden?? It's just a thought though -.I apologize for misspelling and errors in my previous entering, I simply forgot to read thru the text before sending it. But I am confident you somehow understood that peculiar words as 'hustified' should read 'justified' and that 'futhermore' should be 'furthermore', and so on.I am convinced that your efforts will succeed. - Terje

[Gjest Pearl Danroth]

I checked the Emigrants of Oslo for Andreas Johnsen and Andreas Westby(e), but couldn't find him. But then it's hard to know what last name to look for and how it might have been spelled.Never noticed your mistakes. Those spelling errors just seem to pop up after the message is entered! No matter how many times I reread my typing there's always one error that sneaks through.