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Gjest Jeff Erickson

[#20587] Tjostolv FROM - From Nordre Sandar ca 1510

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

I am trying to find out some details about a direct ancestor (according to a database provided to me). The ancestor is Tjostolv FROM born about 1510 and dead by 1580 at From Nordre, SandarHe married? Gunvor ANFINSDATTER. and they had a daughter Sigrid. Were there any other children from the marriage.Are any dates/years of Births/deaths knowm

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Gjest Ken V. Nordberg

Hey Jeff, I am a direct descendant of Tjøstolv From as well. His name is actually Tjøstolv Haraldsen From and he lived at From in Sandar. They had the following children: Harald (ca. 1549-bef 1615), Gunnar (ca 1552), Anfin (ca 1554-1640, my direct ascendant), Kjell (ca 1559-1643), Kristoffer (ca 1563) and finally Sigrid (ca. 1568). If have much more information on the entire line, so if you're interrested, drop me an e-mail at elevator@online.no.Have a good day, Ken V. Nordberg California, U.S.A.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

I must firmly state that we know very little about Tjøstolv From. That his name was Tjøstolv Haraldsen is guesswork, and the same goes for Gunvor Anfinnsdatter as the name of his wife. The years of birth given by Ken V. Nordberg are also taken out of the blue, but the names of the children are correct.Tjøstolv From was alive 1579, but seems to be dead before 1593, as From then was farmed by his sons. In defence of Ken V. Nordberg, I may add that although the years of birth are taken out of the blue, it's reasonable to believe that Tjøstolv's children were born somewhere between 1545 and 1570. It's also true that Harald Tjøstolvsen was the oldest son, but Sigrid may theoretically have been the oldest child.The information submitted by Ken V. Nordberg can unfortunately be found on numerous webpages. It seems to be difficult to get rid of the guesswork.I must underline that this is no criticism of Ken V. Nordberg. The guesswork dates many years back, and is evidence for how easy wrong information may spread.

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Gjest Ken V. Nordberg

Kristian Hunskaar is of course correct in his statements and I must apologize for not specifying that the dates are based on the average generation ages and what we do know about the order of the children. When it comes down to this line, I myself have not based my information on research into original sources, but rather from people I do trust. I realize, however, that I should have made it clear that the dates are as far as can be proved are entirely fictional.Bottom line though, whoever spread these names and years in the first place must have got them from someplace. Based on the patronymical naming system in use at that time, I think the likelyhood that Tjøstolv's father's name was Harald and that his wife's father's name was Anfin is more likely than not. But then again, we do not know the correct order of the children unless we choose to trust whatever figures are out there.Again, I apologize if I have contributed to misinformation and if anyone has any primary sources to qoute about this family, I'd be very happy to see it.Ken V. Nordberg California, U.S.A.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

About the patronymic naming system:The names of Tjøstolv's father and father-in-law may of course be Harald and Anfinn, but why not Gunnar, Kjell or Kristoffer, the names of his other sons?Or - perhaps Tjøstolv had a son that was named after Tjøstolv's father, and this son died at young age. Then his name will never be revealed.Just to show that the patronymic naming system can't be regarded as a rule: In the first three generations of Tjøstolv's descendants, the name is used only once (Sigrid's son Tjøstolv Auensson). It's true that we don't know descendants of Kjell and Kristoffer, but this shows that the patronymic naming system can't be trusted.Genealogy in these ages are extremely full of traps and pitfalls. Overextended belief in the patronymic naming system is only one.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

The origin of some of this is probably the book 'Middelalderens Fraunætter' ('The Fraun-genealogy of the Middle ages' - Fraun is the same as From), written by Hedem in the 1950s.He refers to a document from 1443 [url="http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=3075&s=562&str=>Lenke which shows that this year, the owners of From was 1) Tjøstolv Åsulvsson, and 2) Torgeir Helgesson and his wife Helga Haraldsdotter. The document states that these together owned both From-farms, Flataker and Stange.When Tjøstolv From died, sometime in the 1580s (my guess, but he was alive 1579), he owned all the farmes just mentioned. Hedem believed, and I'm almost convinced myself, that Tjøstolv was related to the people at From in the 14th and 15th century.Based on this, Hedem *constructed* a line between the people mentioned in 1443 and Tjøstolv. In fact, he believed that Tjøstolv was a descendant of both 1) and 2). However, the people he filled in are not documented in any sources - hence, *we don't know their names*.Tjøstolv Åsulvsson is most likely the same person as the one mentioned in this document of 1424: Lenke He then have to be born before 1394 - perhaps around 1380. Then it will be three or four generations between him and Tjøstolv. Why fill in names?Now, there's also a document from 1492

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

Just for the sake of it; here's all the documents about From that I find in the Diplomatarium Norvegicum:1330: [url="http://www.dokpro.uio.no/perl/middelalder/diplom_vise_tekst.prl?b=1305&s=149&str=>Lenke1349: Lenke1363: Lenke1376: Lenke1384: Lenke1385: Lenke1386: Lenke1391: Lenke1393: Lenke1393: Lenke1398: Lenke1399: Lenke1399: Lenke1412: Lenke1443: Lenke1492:

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Thank you Ken and Kristian. It will take me many days to work through the links.Is it known approximately when Tjøstolv was born. Family search shows dates ranging from 1510 to 1545.If he has born as early as 1510 perhaps the children were born as early as 1535How can we be sure he was alive in 1579?.Are there any records on the children of Sigrid?

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

Hi Jeff!I'm afraid you won't understand much of the links, as the documents are in an old norse language. To translate everything for you will also be an enormous task. It was just meant as a reference.Let's just say that Tjøstolv was born between 1510 and 1545. It's literally impossible to know. My personal guess is between 1515 and 1525.I posess a copy of three documents which shows that Tjøstolv was alive 1579, but their contents have no further genealogical information, besides that he owned From, which we already knew.Hedrum bygdebok says that Sigrid had six children. I'm a bit unsure of that, because I have the impression that her husband, Auen at Bjørke Søndre in Hedrum, perhaps was married twice.Karen Auensdatter (d. 1675) at Åshildrød in Hedrum was a daughter, and likewise Tjøstolv Auensson at Gjone in Hedrum and Rasmus Auensson at Bjørke Søndre were sons.There were possibly three more daughters, among those a girl married to Anund Gulbrandsson at Vestby in Hedrum, but that seems to interfere with the statements of Karen Auensdatter's probate record. However, it seems that I have lost my notes on that one, so I will have go through it all over again at the archive. I'm pretty convinced that the solution isn't as easy as the Hedrum bygdebok seems to believe.

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Thanks again Kristian,I found a reference on the web page Lenkethat shows 19280 Tjøstolv Haraldsson b c.a. 1510 at Nordre From,Sandar and dying 1580 (there is no c.a.) His wife is shown as Gunvor Anfinsdatter. I believe this to be a site of Ketil Firing Hansen's ancestors. Perhaps he has a reference to Tjøstolv 's name being Haraldsson and a reference for the wife. He may also have something pointing to Tjøstolv's death in 1580

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Gjest Ketil Firing Hanssen

The data on Tjøstolv From in my ahnentafel is taken from the source Kristian mentions in the first paragraph of his contribution no. 6. I fully agree with Kristian's comments on the 'surety level' of this source. No evidence of his patronym is known to exist.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

The reason why 1580 so often is mentioned as the year of Tjøstolv's death, is that the author of Sandar (Sandeherred) bygdebok, Lorens Berg, wrote that Tjøstolv farmed From about 1540-1580.This is taken out of the blue, because the only source Berg seems to have known regarding Tjøstolv, is a statement from 1679, which says that a certain Tjøstolv at From, 'whose father's name noone knew', was the father of Harald, Gunnar, Anfinn, Kjøl, Kristoffer and Sigrid.In fact, as far as I can see, noone has ever published a source which mentions Tjøstolv as 'still alive'. The three documents from 1579 is therefore unique.Until further evidence is brought to the table, the best way to present Tjøstolv is:TJØSTOLV, mentioned 1579 at Nordre From, possibly dead before 1593. Wife unknown. He owned Nordre From with the subfarm Flataker, Søndre From, Østre Stange and Kiste. Six children grew up, but there might have been additional children who died infantly or, in any case, before their father.

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Is it known where Tjøstolv's children were born. Family Search shows Sigrid born at Flataker. Can this be confirmed.

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

No. -- Flataker is a subfarm of From, which Sigrid owned a part of. It's highly unlikely that she was born there, and no source of this information exists.Family Search contains a lot of misinterpreted information (from bygdebooks), which probably reflects that Norwegian isn't the mother-tongue of a lot of the submitters.Generally speaking; concentrating on years and places of birth for people in the 16th century and earlier, is a waste of time in my opinion. In 99,99% (or more) of the cases, we'll never know.In this case, for instance, we don't know whether Tjøstolv farmed another farm before he came to From. We only know that he lived there in 1579. Although his children most likely were born at From, the possibilities are numerous.

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Gjest Kjell Hansen

I can send you an RTF fil in Word about Tjøstolv and Gunvor who lived in From, Sandar, Vestfold. I have all the children an much more. Please giv me your E-mail adress and you will get informasjon from me.

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Gjest Jeff Erickson

Thank youMy email is ericj@adam.com.auBest wishesJeff

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Gjest Are S. Gustavsen

Kjell Hansen:Jeg undres over hvilken verdi din rtf-fil med opplysninger egentlig kan ha. Ja, for du viser jo med all mulig tydlighet viser at du enten ikke har lest hva som kommer fram i debatten så langt eller så er du ikke villig til å ta hensyn til dette.Kristian Hunskaar har ovenfor vist at Tjøstulv Froms ektefelle ikke er kjent, allikevel kommer du inn i debatten 2-3 måneder i etterkant og later som at dette ikke betyr noe. Jeff Erickson:My advice to you is to disregard all information about Tjøstulv From and his claimed spouse 'Gunvor', which has not been discussed here.It is quite obvious that Kjell Hansen has a strong desire to help, but his posting above gives a strong signal that he is unwilling to update himself on the current standings of the research into Tjøstulv From and his next of kin. Most importantly; Tjøstulvs spouse is not yet known by name. Hence the claimed 'Gunvor' should be ruled out of every record.However, I would believe that his (Kjell's) information about the descendants of Tjøstulv From is applicable, provideed he has accurately collected his information from Lorens Bergs book 'Sandeherred' (published 1918).Are

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Gjest Kjell Hansen

Beklager Are at du ikke liker at jeg blandet meg inn i Jeff,s etterlysning. Var nå inne i denne Web-debatten for første gang. Hvis jeg kan hjelpe noen, synes jeg det er meget hyggelig. Noen andre intensjoner enn dette har jeg ikke. Ha en god dag.Mvh Kjell

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Gjest Kristian Hunskaar

Hei Kjell;det er ingenting å beklage at du blandet deg inn i etterlysningen. Dersom du har oversendt Jeff etterslekt i flere generasjoner, er jeg sikker på at du har hjulpet ham mye (og det er også Are enig, jfr hans siste avsnitt). Men det er alltid en god regel å lese de foregående innleggene, og jeg vil bare gjenta min oppfordring til alle som måtte lese denne debatten:Verken Tjøstolvs farsnavn eller navnet på hans kone er kjent. Dette gjelder uansett hvor mange ganger en kan lese det i private slektstavler - og bøker for den sakens skyld - i alle fall så lenge det ikke blir argumentert for gjennom kildebelegg. Inntil videre bør eventuelle koner strykes fra databasene. Det er naturligvis lov å ha hypoteser, men uten kildegrunnlag bør ikke slikt videreformidles, da de dessverre har en tendens til raskt å bli sannheter (bedre kjent som slektsgranskingens største problem).

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Gjest Kjell Hansen

Hei Kristian. Jeg har meget stor respekt for alt det arbeidet du har nedlagt i forb.med slektsforskning og forstår hva du mener. Ha en god dag.Mvh Kjell

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